Storage of ammunition / explosives

tudderone

ESetter wrote: »

It looks like a complete balls up was made of it but I wonder is there a different attitude there now in the nargc/deer societies? If they could get their act together and put a united front to the powers that be ..could it be changed? Even if they allowed home reloading on a very small scale ie limit the amount of powder sold/or held it would be a massive leap in the right direction. Id say the dealers would be delighted!! Reloading seems to be very common in the UK

There were too many old farts running these societies, i knew some of them, out of the ark they were, and their attitudes.

Feisar

I would have thought the NRAI would be the organisation to get behind?

Cass

Yes and no.

Yes, talk to the NRAI. Ask them how they went about it, what was required, what is required, application process, etc, etc. IOW get as much information as you can. Its also helpful to support the NRAI because as the only association with reloading their foot in the door is what is needed to further it along for any other group, association or individual(s).

No, from the perspective of the NRAI being an association specializing in F-Class and their "appealing" for reloading to be rolled out to other groups would be limited because other groups/association would need to show their own need/requirement. Very much like applying for a firearms license, your "good reason" must be your own. IOW how would the NRAI show just cause or good reason for say the NASRPC or NARGC members to get reloading. The NRAI however could lend their support to other groups and the combined efforts of the group with it and the one(s) seeking it might make the difference.

civdef

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

[

FINALLY found this!!!.
Now someone please NAIL this into a reloading thread /sticky before I lose it again. It's the Stores for explosives order 2007 SI 804

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2007/si/804/made/en/pdf

Now how does this all apply to us? As we are handling an "explosive"[nitro powder] and "manufacturing munitions" this is the order they will be using to make sure we are compliant.
This is fine legislation if we were building and operating "Grizzlys ammo works" and supplying ammo by the container load on commercial levels.
But total overkill for Grizzly reloading in his cellar for deer season.

It also explains why the Midlands range has what looks like atomic blast-proof bunkers for reloading.:rolleyes:


LATER
After having a quick read of the replaced legislation of 1955.[ Stores for Explosives Order, 1955] .

There was an actual provision in the previous legislation for reloading on a small scale!! And exempted it from requiring a factory or commercial licensing!!! The 2007 legislation never took this into consideration and has now lumped home reloading into a commercial situation.

Domestic scale reloading should fall under the Registered Premises bit (Section
21-29) of the 1875 Act, rather than the Section 15 Local Authority Licensed Store which this SI deals with.

A registered premises can store 22.68Kg of "G.P. or shooters powder and SAA" in Mode B storage

Mode B: A substantial receptacle or safe inside a dwelling house or public
room. General limit = 22.68kg (50lbs) or double this if kept in a fireproof
safe.

Feisar

The next time some lad comes canvassing it’ll be fun!

Edit - surely the Greens would be all over it, recycling brass...

tudderone

Feisar wrote: »

The next time some lad comes canvassing it’ll be fun!

If you are asking difficult questions or being an awkward sod, they don't come back near you. I had a barney with a right tit canvassing for fg years ago, i reckon i'm on some sort of black list new

.243

If the lead ban comes in that could be good reason to reload due to lack of quality and eco friendly factory ammunition

Zxthinger

civdef wrote: »

Domestic scale reloading should fall under the Registered Premises bit (Section
21-29) of the 1875 Act, rather than the Section 15 Local Authority Licensed Store which this SI deals with.

A registered premises can store 22.68Kg of "G.P. or shooters powder and SAA" in Mode B storage

Can you elaborate slightly. What is the state of play at this point in time? As you see it.

Feisar

"And the reason we can reload today son is because of a group that started on boards back in the day."

civdef

Zxthinger wrote: »

Can you elaborate slightly. What is the state of play at this point in time? As you see it.

I'm not sure of the current state of play on reloading (very interested though).

I deal with the explosives licensing legislation a bit for work, the quotes I linked there are from: http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/storing_explosives

Under current legislation a local authority can definitely register a premises to store up to 22.68Kg of powder and SAA on an RP1 form

The DoJ guide has this sentence also:

Note that for storage of any explosive other than SAA (small arms
ammunition), current best practice requires appropriate separation distances to
be kept to the public. A Government Inspector of Explosives may be consulted
by the local authority for guidance before such registration or renewal

Though the separation distances for small amounts of Hazard class 4 (powder & primers) are listed as zero.


So getting to be a registered premises is doable. What comes after that is my question. Import licences?

Grizzly 45

civdef wrote: »

I'm not sure of the current state of play on reloading (very interested though).

IT is being reviewed by the DOJ via their "policy dept" however when they issue a review on this might be anyone's guess, as they review the entire legislation, as they are all of three people reviewing the entire Irish legislation that relates to the Dept of Justice.A recommendation can be either good/bad news too, and it doesn't mean it has to be acted on either by the govt or minister.

Under current legislation a local authority can definitely register a premise to store up to 22.68Kg of powder and SAA on an RP1 form

Though the separation distances for small amounts of Hazard class 4 (powder & primers) are listed as zero.

So getting to be a registered premise is doable. What comes after that is my question. Import licences?

Storage and manufacturing ammo are two completely different things in the law AFAICS
You might be able to get permission to "store powder" but you will need a different bucket of fish to make ammo and that won't happen until...

Once the fire chief has signed off, once the Gardai sign off, once the council sign off on your planning permission to construct or modify suitable premises to store and manufacture ammo.Once you have gone thru the notice of planning permission objections from people nowhere near your neighbourhood and are professional paid objectors in some cases.

Once you somehow convince them you are reloading for personal usage and not for commercial usage, and good luck with THAT one as there is no,none, zero, Nil,Nein,Non, Nyet exemption clause for hobby reloading in this above act of the storage of explosive order 2007. Yeah, it is "doable " alright if you want to throw alot of time, lawyers and monies at it.:rolleyes:

Importing the powder...Let's just go briefly there...assuming someone brave enough is going to do this commercially. As this will apply to even those buying a couple of kgs for personal use.

It won't be a jaunt up to NI, as with Brexit the paperwork will become even worse once they quit the EU, as you will now be importing from a non-EU country.

It will require a PSNI /AGS escort to and from the border, as the DOJ is obligated to inform both forces of a movement of explosives per EU DIRECTIVES, and you will be paying both police forces for their manpower and time. That might be expensive now with STG/Euro rates in the future, and will NI have enough powder for a bulk shipment down South?

Oh, and make sure your truck or van is EU compliant as well for carrying explosives, and your driver has his EU Hazmat/Explosives qualifications up to date as well.

France perhaps? Hmmm...Going to be an expensive trip, as carrying explosives on ships or ferries is a kind of costly nautical affair I believe in time and paperwork too.IF they are willing to transport it too that is.

Lads, let's get it into our heads. This will not be a cheap or easy option under current legislation in any shape or form. We are stuck under factory/commercial legislation with both storage and manufacture under the 2007 storage of explosives legislation, possibly even EU law.

Acquiring, importing and transporting, we are hit by both EU and national legislation.

And under EU legislation, you can be damn well assured we will need to do some sort of course on UN, EU and national legislation on reloading or manufacturing munitions and the safe storage and transport etc thereof as the EU calls it. So like HCAP etc...Who teaches the teachers?
IOW spend two days learning about the law on transport, storage, and record-keeping and about 2 hours on how to actually reload a bullet or cartridge.:[ That's the German reloaders license:rolleyes:] and I cant see it being much better a variation here, except with a bigger price tag!

The best bet would be to demand a clause added onto the 2007 SI that exempts non-commercial manufacturing or reloading and storage of up to 5 kgs of nitro powder,as it is a propellant rather than an explosive as well as Pyrodex for BP shooters, and primers from this SI, as it had this exemption in the 1955 act.

At least if we had that, it would at least make it legally easier, and it would then allow gun dealers etc to see if it was a viable market to get into, as they would also have to modify their premises to store powder on a commercial rate

tudderone

There you go with that common sense rubbish again Grizzly45. Sure where would we be if we used logic, level headedness and common sense in Ireland ? The whole place would grind to a halt.