The Leinster Championship is dead.

Tombo2001

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

And just to be fair to both sides.....:)

I actually think it's fair to say that the imbalance in Leinster is partly caused by the likes of Kildare and Meath not currently being at the standard they were at in previous years. I think their results against other counties from outside the province shows this.

But while they've gone backwards a bit, Dublin have moved hugely forwards, and it's the combination of the two that brings the imbalance.

I honestly don't think there's any solution, and definitely not a short-term one anyway. The Leinster Championship is doomed to stay as uncompetitive as it is, for a good few years to come.

When you say its a combination of the two........maybe so if its 95% one of the above and 5% the other. Its not 50:50.

The Kildare teams and Meath teams of the 1990s would never have won an all ireland if this Dublin team was around.

gormdubhgorm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The combination of
- sheer numbers, allied to to the volume of investment in those numbers (at underage)
-plus the home advantage of playing all your games in croke park
- plus the demographic advantage of being the centre of industry and university, such that young people are likely to stay living in the county and study and work there.

These are phenomenal advantages that other counties - no matter what way you cut it - cant replicate.

It has always been like this though. The main difference is Dublin got their act together - ironically thanks to help of culchies in Dublin clubs and cluchies in Dublin schools. The cluchie GAA brain drain I call it.

As for playing in CP when Dublin were struggling in the 90's and 00's it was suggested that Croke Park was a disadvantage for Dublin. As when they performed badly the crowd would turn against them. Plus if I had a punt/euro for everytime I heard Kerry love Croke Park wide pitch suits their skilful players, I would be a rich man.

Also Kerry people in particular pointed out correctly (time and again) that the Dublin team lacked 'footballers'. Alan Brogan and Dessie Farrell had a lot on their shoulders in the forward line. Plus a very hardworking Jayo tried to mask their deficiencies.Most Dublin footballers were sloggers Collie Moran for example.

Plus the 00's in particular were the most frustrating Dublin team to support any bit of pressure put on them they would invariably fold. Plenty of examples Kildare 2000 etc . And Derry 1993 spring to mind, when the Dublin players believed their own hype and did not know how to close a game out.

Plus when Charlie Redmond retired Dublin did not even have a decent freetaker.
Against Donegal in the AI QF 2002 Dublin had Paddy Christie taking frees! A full back! Same when Westmeath beeat Dublin the year they won Leinster as well.

Mossy Quinn was talked up as Dublin's answer however he was very hit and miss.
Before that Wayne McCarthy was talked up as Dublin's answer for taking frees just because he used to watch Charlie taking them for Erin's Isle! That is how desperate Dublin were.

The county with all those 'advantages' you list did not even have a decent freetaker. Plus don't get me started on the dyed blonde Marc Vaughan all mouth and no trousers.
Might hit a massive free, but miss easy ones and was a red card waiting to happen all shapes.

Declan Darcy was probably the best of them but he was OK, called back from Leitrim as an emergency!

Plus not only that Dublin were questionable tactically. I remember when Micko was thinking of becoming Dublin manager around 2010 (before the 70's Dublin lads said no way). He said the first thing he would have done was stop the half backs attacking so much as it left Dublin constantly vulnerable at the time

The new Dublin generation has an awful lot to do with it plus there was proper organisation around it as well (for a change)

I suggest you have a gawk at this crop of Dublin players from a Dublin North v Dublin South game in 2005 under 12.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/



It makes it very hard to deny that the talent was there was in a special crop.

Dubs fans I think would like people to believe the county is like Kerry or Kilkenny, that its just the sheer passion of Dubs for football and a once in a lifetime crop of players. There may be a bit of the latter, but the gap between the Dubs and the rest is far wider than for example what Kilkenny enjoyed 10 years ago.

It is not a BIT of the latter it is A LOT of the latter great crop of players (see above). As KK and Kerry were (and will be again) great managers who know how to form a team also help.

To add to all that- is the knock on effect it has on other counties - why would you want to play football for Meath anymore. There is nothing that team can do to live up to expectations, they have endured humiliation after humiliation in recent years.

Yes and some of those were not against the Dubs. Meath losing to Westmeath in 2015. Beaten by Longford 2018. Meath have fallen very low even relative to other counties. Kildare losing three times to minnows.

You call it Meaths decline back to minnow levels - Meath have been Leinster Finalists two years running. If the Dubs hadnt been in the picture, who is to say Meath wouldnt have been in an all Ireland final last year.

I honestly laughed out loud when I read this. Meath did not win one single game in div 1 of the NFL this year, not even a draw.

Meath failed to win one single game in the super 8's in 2019 not even a draw.

Yet suddenly by some miracle you expect Meath to be in an AI final? God bless your optimism is all I can say to that!

Dubs fans are in denial about the advantages they enjoy and thats fair enough, it doesnt suit their narrative.

Dub fans are not in denial about their advantages or so called they always had them. However, there are disadvantages to Dublin as well. Economies of scale, rent, land prices. building prices, planning permission difficulty, traffic congestion.

Competition from other sports in Dublin there are vast areas of Dublin that are GAA wastelands. D4 a rugby area and many working class Dublin areas are soccer mad. Shane Horgan had to move school to Louth because there was no Meath school that played rugby!

But this simply cant continue. And it wont continue because people will stop going to games. And they have been stopping going to games, in big numbers.

I only see two solutions here (i) break Dublin into two or even three groups, which I think is unpalatable for everyone (and doesnt even address the issue as South Dublin versus Longford or even Meath is still a mismatch) (ii) Take Dublin out of Leinster, which they should do immediately in my view. Third potential outcome here is (iii) do nothing. The impact of this in my view is that the club championship will grow in importance and people will stop watching intercounty.

Splitting Dublin is grand in theory but then you have the logistical problems of finding a place to build another ground. Admin and so on. Plus Dublin GAA is a brand spitting it will not be attractive to advertisers.

Amalgamation of weaker counties seems like a much easier thing to do. As it will result in more finances and more interest from sponsors. The main issue in the counties in Leinster apart from Dublin are way too weak. Div 2 teams at best.

Ulster have Monaghan Donegal and Tyrone all division 1 teams.

Connacht have two consistent div1 teams Galway and Mayo. With a plucky Rossie side who are occasionally div 1. But like Meath and Kidlare struggle to be consistent that level

Munster - good luck with that a dead duck of a competition (covid19 is not fooling me)

Plus I feel Meath and Kildare in particular are not making use of their close proximity to Dublin. The parentage rule could easily be used more in Kildare and Meath. and they could have large influx of lads to improve their side. How many Dubs would have Kildare or Meath parents? How many lads coming to work in Dublin from elsewhere in the country have Kildare or Meath parents?

Plenty of people living in Kildare/Meath etc because the houses are cheaper than in Dublin.

Meath could make much more of an effort to get the up and coming 'Eric Lowndes/Paul Curran's' to play for the royals for example.

Plus how many Kildare or Meath people work in Dublin? The best of them could play for Dublin clubs and improve their own standard playing at a higher club level. Better competition. Also there is another benefit accessing a top Dublin facilities, and coaching and so on, which could be brought back to their native counties.

Tombo2001

ShyMets wrote: »

Or we could accept that 3 of the 4 provincial championships are largely uncompetitive and move to a different format

Its a bad year to be arguing this after Tipp's win in Munster. Cork are on the comeback trail.

Meanwhile in Connacht, its 5 years since the title was retained.

If you took Dublin out of Leinster, you'd have a very competitive Leinster Championship, and obviously Ulster is Ulster.

If we get to the Open draw, then there is still the same problem.

Any other structure is just basically the league in a different form.

Take Dublin out of Leinster for me is the quickest and easiest way to make a material difference to the problem.

ShyMets

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its a bad year to be arguing this after Tipp's win in Munster. Cork are on the comeback trail.

Meanwhile in Connacht, its 5 years since the title was retained.

If you took Dublin out of Leinster, you'd have a very competitive Leinster Championship, and obviously Ulster is Ulster.

If we get to the Open draw, then there is still the same problem.

Any other structure is just basically the league in a different form.

Take Dublin out of Leinster for me is the quickest and easiest way to make a material difference to the problem.

What Tipp did this year was wonderful but the fact remains that for the last 70 Munster has been a two horse race and at times only a one horse race.

The majority of Connaught titles have been won by Mayo and Galway in the last 70/80 years Sligo have won 3, Leitrim 2.

Leaving aside Roscommon's period of dominance in the mid 40's and late 70's, they average about 1 Connaught title a decade. Hardly tearing things up.

Yes you can take Dublin but just devalues the Leinster championship

ShyMets

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I

Any other structure is just basically the league in a different form.

.

Just on your point about the League, it works much better as a competition then the Championship.

The Championship often pits two teams with vastly different footballing abilities against each other and this just leads to hammerings

Tombo2001

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It has always been like this though. The main difference is Dublin got their act together - ironically thanks to help of culchies in Dublin clubs and cluchies in Dublin schools. The cluchie GAA brain drain I call it.

Also there is another benefit accessing a top Dublin facilities, and coaching and so on, which could be brought back to their native counties.

Thats all interesting stuff - its gas to see them all on the same sheet so long ago, and ciaran kilkenny's name spelt differently.

You laughed out loud at my suggestion re Meath - and I am arguing, that as Leinster Champions Meath might have come up against the likes of Mayo, or Donegal, or Tyrone in an all Ireland semifinal and could have beaten them. Probably wouldnt have, but they'd have a shot. You referred to the League - they were in close games, Mayo beat Meath by 1 point, Mayo by 2, Kerry by 3, Monaghan draw. They could potentially beat these teams in championship.

Whereas they cant beat Dublin. If Meath play Dublin 100 times, Dublin will win 100 times. End of.

I'd see the 'proximity to Dublin' issue from a different perspective.

The problem I see here is that people living in Meath have long commutes.

If you look at Dublin clubs - yes the structures are good, the games development officers help a lot - but the most important thing these do is allow the clubs tap in more effectively to the vast horde of volunteer mentors that train underage teams. People can give up their time when their commute back to Marino or Kilmacud is 30 minutes. If you are driving from Dublin city centre to Navan on the other hand, you have less time for volunteering. Thats the reality on the ground. A huge proportion of people in Meath and Kildare are commuting to Dublin (in normal times).

On your other point - that its just this one special crop of players. I take the point. Against that, your argument is self defeating as you are pointing out yourself that these players were under 12 in 2005. And yet starting at 2005, Dublin has one 15 out of 16 Leinster titles.

gormdubhgorm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its a bad year to be arguing this after Tipp's win in Munster. Cork are on the comeback trail.

I don't agree with this at all, this year has been completely and utterly skewed by Covid19. I know the old romantics don't like to hear it. Plus there was the added benefit (for Dublin) of Dublin getting a much needed rest.

If you took Dublin out of Leinster, you'd have a very competitive Leinster Championship, and obviously Ulster is Ulster.

The whole provinical system is daft and unfair and needs to be changed

Taking Dublin out of Leinster again grand in theory. But it seems only designed to give Kildare and Meath a duopoly. More than likely one or other of them would win Leinster each year as both are evenly matched and that bit ahead of Laois/Westmeath etc.

When Meath and Kildare get their act together I would sincerely doubt that the likes of Carlow/Longford would be winning Leinsters all of a sudden.

Plus poor auld Louth/Wexford/Wicklow would still be complete no hopers in Leinster how would the structure be fair on them? They don't matter?

If we get to the Open draw, then there is still the same problem.

Any other structure is just basically the league in a different form.

A league format among groups of 4 evenly matched teams (countrywide) home and away then open draw would solve it.

Take Dublin out of Leinster for me is the quickest and easiest way to make a material difference to the problem.

You claim taking Dublin out of Leinster would solve it. I claim it won't it is only papering over the cracks of the antiquated provincial strucrture and the failings of other counties underachieving.

I have also noted you have suggested moving Dublin out of Leinster twice as the panacea for solving Leinster's woes. Yet you have not once said where you would put them!?

I hope eventually the GAA have sense and grow that National Football League and treat it with the respect it deserves. The whole championship talk as is now is guff based on nothing but tradition. The league is the best GAA competition by miles in my opinion. Plus it is my favourite intercounty competition by far.
Get to travel the county see competitive games and so on. Get to see decent sides barring the whipping boy team ranked at 7/8ish. Normally Kildare/Meath/Roscommon . Next year likely to be Armagh.

gormdubhgorm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats all interesting stuff - its gas to see them all on the same sheet so long ago, and ciaran kilkenny's name spelt differently.

You laughed out loud at my suggestion re Meath - and I am arguing, that as Leinster Champions Meath might have come up against the likes of Mayo, or Donegal, or Tyrone in an all Ireland semifinal and could have beaten them. Probably wouldnt have, but they'd have a shot. You referred to the League - they were in close games, Mayo beat Meath by 1 point, Mayo by 2, Kerry by 3, Monaghan draw. They could potentially beat these teams in championship.

Whereas they cant beat Dublin. If Meath play Dublin 100 times, Dublin will win 100 times. End of.

But it just shows Meath are not good enough end of! They were in div 1 for the first time in 13 and lost all their games.

I'd see the 'proximity to Dublin' issue from a different perspective.

The problem I see here is that people living in Meath have long commutes.

If you look at Dublin clubs - yes the structures are good, the games development officers help a lot - but the most important thing these do is allow the clubs tap in more effectively to the vast horde of volunteer mentors that train underage teams. People can give up their time when their commute back to Marino or Kilmacud is 30 minutes. If you are driving from Dublin city centre to Navan on the other hand, you have less time for volunteering. Thats the reality on the ground. A huge proportion of people in Meath and Kildare are commuting to Dublin (in normal times).

Which is why I think the Meath Kildare players should play for Dublin clubs. Plus the Meath/Kildare voulnteers could learn from those Dublin clubs.

Perhaps an idea would be to set up a Meath/Kildare 'hub' in Dublin. With coaches for those players. Mícheál Ó Muircheartaigh used to train the Kerry lads that lived and worked in Dublin for example. Now I doubt it was scientific at that time, but you can see my point

On your other point - that its just this one special crop of players. I take the point. Against that, your argument is self defeating as you are pointing out yourself that these players were under 12 in 2005. And yet starting at 2005, Dublin has one 15 out of 16 Leinster titles.

I would argue this was due to to main other factors. The decline of the powers and/or absence of three great GAA men who led Kildare/Laois, Meath and Westmeath, respectively.

Micko left Kildare for the final time in 2002
Micko left Laois in 2006
Boylan left Meath in 2005
Paidi left Westmeath in 2005

Their calibre of management has yet to be replicated either tactically, motivationally, or in innovation. It left a power vacuum gap for Dublin. Giving them a chance to return to the top of the pile in Leinster.

I always gauge the strength of a province how their losing teams fare in the qualifiers. Are they beating teams they should not be on paper? Or at least giving them a good rattle consistently. If teams are only beating the likes of Waterford or Leitrim it does not show improvement.

The fact is there is no Leinster team bar Dublin in the top 7 teams in the country with is a major issue as well. How can you expect Leinster teams to compete with the top team in the country when they cannot even compete in div1?

ArielAtom

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I dont think so at this stage to be honest, people have had enough.

Can you come up with a solution??????????????????

Sonny678

ArielAtom wrote: »

As you have asked, below are the last 10 years finals and the margins of victory

2010 Cork won.
2011 Dublin beat Kerry by 1 point
2012 Donegal win.
2013 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2104 Kerry win
2015 Dublin beat Kerry by 3 points
2016 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2017 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2018 Dublin beat Tyrone by 6 points
2019 Dublin beat Kerry by 6 points.

6 points is the largest margin and that was against Tyrone and a replay v Kerry. The scoring stats do not suggest total dominance.

Leinster maybe, but not nationally. Therefore Leinster is the problem, poor teams that need major surgery.

The finals have been tight. Finals in gaelic football tend to be tight. But there is much more to a season then a final, in league and championship in league games, league semi finals and league finals and q finals and super 8s and semi finals in the championship the Dubs have heavily beaten, hammered and even humiliated the top teams in the country outside leinster for years. Dubs have totally dominated gaelic football nationally recently with 12 national titles in a decade which includes 7 All Ireland titles in 9 years and 5 national league div 1 titles in 6 years. They have gone on the longest unprecedent winning run in football history with unprecedented 40 game unbeaten run in championship, far ahead of anything put together at senior inter-county level ever before. Of the 21 major trophies open to Jim Galvin, All-Ireland, provincial and league, the Dub won 18 of them. Under Galvin that breaks down as six All Irelands, seven Leinsters and five leagues. To win all them Dubs had to beat teams outside Leinster. And on many occasions they heavily defeated teams outside leinster also. Dublin are totally dominating gaelic football nationwide also not just Leinster. And they have heavily beaten all the top teams since they started totally dominating football. Examples below of games v oppostion outside leinster. Remeber all these games are v div 1 teams in that year, or teams in All Ireland q final, super 8s, semi final stage.

Summary of Games
2011 Dublin beat Tyrone by 7 points
2012 Dublin beat Armagh by 16 points
2012 Dublin beat Donegal by 9 points
2013 Dublin beat Kerry by 7 points
2014 Dublin beat Cork by 7 points
2014 Dulbin beat Derry by 15 points
2015 Dublin beat Monaghan by 13 points
2015 Dublin beat Cork by 11 points
2015 Dublin beat Fermanagh by 8 points
2015 Dublin beat Mayo by 7 points
2016 Dublin beat Cork by 10 points
2016 Dublin beat Donegal by 10 points
2016 Dublin beat Kerry by 11 points
2017 Dublin beat Mayo by 12 points
2017 Dublin beat Roscommon by 22 points
2017 Dublin beat Monaghan by 10 points
2017 Dublin beat Tyrone by 12 points
2018 Dublin beat Kerry by 12 points
2018 Dublin beat Roscommon by 14 points
2018 Dublin beat Galway by 8 points
2019 Dublin beat Galway by 11 points
2019 Dublin beat Mayo by 8 points
2019 Dublin beat Cork by 13 points
2019 Dublin beat Roscommon by 18 points
2019 Dublin beat Mayo by 10 points

There has been many 5 or 6 points wins over Mayo, Donegal and Galway also. I left out defeats under 7 points.
Here are the games again listen above but just in more detail interms of ]fixutre

Dublin beat Tyrone by 7 points 2011 Champ Q Final
Dublin beat Armagh by 16 points 2012 League
Dublin beat Donegal by 9 points 2012 league
Dublin beat Kerry by 7 points 2013 Champ Semi final
Dublin beat Cork by 7 points 2014 League semi final
Dulbin beat Derry by 15 points 2014 League Final
Dublin beat Monaghan by 13 points 2015 League
Dublin beat Cork by 11 points 2015 league final
Dublin beat Fermanagh by 8 points 2015 Champ Q final
Dublin beat Mayo by 7 points 2015 Champ Semi final
Dublin beat Cork by 10 points 2016 League
Dublin beat Donegal by 10 points 2016 League semi final
Dublin beat Kerry by 11 points in 2016 L League Final
Dublin beat Mayo by 12 points in 2017 League
Dublin beat Roscommon by 22 points 2017 League
Dublin beat Monaghan by 10 points 2017 Champ Q Final
Dublin beat Tyrone by 12 points 2017 Champ Semi final
Dublin beat Kerry by 12 points 2018 League
Dublin beat Roscommon by 14 points 2018 Champ Q Final Super 8s
Dublin beat Galway by 8 points 2018 Champ Semi Final
Dublin beat Galway by 11 points 2019 League
Dublin beat Mayo by 8 points 2019 league
Dublin beat Cork by 13 points 2019 Champ Q Final Super 8s
Dublin beat Roscommon by 18 points 2019 Champ Q Final Super 8s
Dublin beat Mayo by 10 points Champ Semi final

Tombo2001

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I don't agree with this at all, this year has been completely and utterly skewed by Covid19. I know the old romantics don't like to hear it. Plus there was the added benefit (for Dublin) of Dublin getting a much needed rest.





The whole provinical system is daft and unfair and needs to be changed

Taking Dublin out of Leinster again grand in theory. But it seems only designed to give Kildare and Meath a duopoly. More than likely one or other of them would win Leinster each year as both are evenly matched and that bit ahead of Laois/Westmeath etc.

When Meath and Kildare get their act together I would sincerely doubt that the likes of Carlow/Longford would be winning Leinsters all of a sudden.

Plus poor auld Louth/Wexford/Wicklow would still be complete no hopers in Leinster how would the structure be fair on them? They don't matter?



A league format among groups of 4 evenly matched teams (countrywide) home and away then open draw would solve it.



You claim taking Dublin out of Leinster would solve it. I claim it won't it is only papering over the cracks of the antiquated provincial strucrture and the failings of other counties underachieving.

I have also noted you have suggested moving Dublin out of Leinster twice as the panacea for solving Leinster's woes. Yet you have not once said where you would put them!?

I hope eventually the GAA have sense and grow that National Football League and treat it with the respect it deserves. The whole championship talk as is now is guff based on nothing but tradition. The league is the best GAA competition by miles in my opinion. Plus it is my favourite intercounty competition by far.
Get to travel the county see competitive games and so on. Get to see decent sides barring the whipping boy team ranked at 7/8ish. Normally Kildare/Meath/Roscommon . Next year likely to be Armagh.

If you take the Leinster runner up as the second best team in the province, then that was Laois two years ago.

If you take the team closest to Dublin (on the scoreboard) as the second best team, thats Westmeath this year.

On the other point - I would bring Dublin in at QF stage, which removes the need for all the dead rubbers.

I dont agree with your point on the league, simply as I dont think the teams see it as their number one priority, and it shows.

For example, Dublin beat Meath by 4 points in the League this year; they were experimenting, trying things out. Championship comes and they are 15 points up after 30 minutes.

At the moment, for me the best competition is the one that starts when we know who the four semi finalists are.

You could be right that the League is the way to go, time will tell.

On a completely different issue, your point is well made regarding the challenges Dublin faces. The biggest one is availability of space, the fact that so often underage players are crammed into small spaces on astro pitches for training, or they are training at awkward times, because there simply isnt space available. I see underage teams going out training at 9pm sometimes, its ridiculous. Whatever benefits the county teams enjoy, for me is incidental compared to this issue.

Coillte_Bhoy

ShyMets wrote: »

What Tipp did this year was wonderful but the fact remains that for the last 70 Munster has been a two horse race and at times only a one horse race.

The majority of Connaught titles have been won by Mayo and Galway in the last 70/80 years Sligo have won 3, Leitrim 2.

Leaving aside Roscommon's period of dominance in the mid 40's and late 70's, they average about 1 Connaught title a decade. Hardly tearing things up.

Yes you can take Dublin but just devalues the Leinster championship

Even excluding the 70's 4 in a row but why i dont know, Ross average a title every 5 or 6 years and other years they are almost always competitive at least.

ShyMets

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Even excluding the 70's 4 in a row but why i dont know, Ross average a title every 5 or 6 years and other years they are almost always competitive at least.

Not every 5 or 6 years. They won three this decade which is good. They won one in the 00's. Two in the 90's. One in the 80's. 4 in the 70's. Two in the 60's and two in the 50's

Cilldara_2000

I'm not aware of the intricacies of Meath but I know that the last period of time Kildare were half way competitive nationally was 2008 to 2012 and it literally broke the county. But sure money has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:

Also, have a look at this before talking about population and how counties should raise more money themselves: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp2tc/cp2pdm/pob/

It's no surprise that Meath, Kildare and Wicklow have the highest percentage of residents that were not born in the county. I'm sure all these people wandering about Naas, Navan and Bray in Dublin jerseys and shorts in December are more than willing to help out the local county board.

Sonny678

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I'm not aware of the intricacies of Meath but I know that the last period of time Kildare were half way competitive nationally was 2008 to 2012 and it literally broke the county. But sure money has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:

Also, have a look at this before talking about population and how counties should raise more money themselves: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp2tc/cp2pdm/pob/

It's no surprise that Meath, Kildare and Wicklow have the highest percentage of residents that were not born in the county. I'm sure all these people wandering about Naas, Navan and Bray in Dublin jerseys and shorts in December are more than willing to help out the local county board.

Meath is the county with most people in the country who are not from the county. 20 years agp when Meath population was 103000 or 50 years ago when Meaths popualation was 66000 most people in the county where from the county. Bernard Flynn constantly talks how Meath has lost its gaa identity in last 20 years with population growth.

In 2016 the 194,302 usual residents of County Meath , only 67,798 (34.9 per cent) were born in the county, the lowest percentage of any county in the State. Half of all residents in Meath were born elsewhere in Ireland. In general, the commuter belt counties of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow had the highest percentage of residents that were not born in the county.

Almost three quarters of Cork and Donegal residents were born in the county,
Of the 1.3 million usual residents in Dublin 880,457 (67 per cent) were born in the county.

The counties who have the most people born in their county who are from the county are Cork, Limerick, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry and Mayo. They are top 6 counties in Ireland who have most people born in their county who are from the county. 5 of those counties have been strong and sucessful recently.

The 4 counties that have the lowest percentage of people born in their county who are not from that county are Meath killdare Wicklow and leitrim. All counties that have struggled in the last ten years.

StupidLikeAFox

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

)I suggest you have a gawk at this crop of Dublin players from a Dublin North v Dublin South game in 2005 under 12.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/



It makes it very hard to deny that the talent was there was in a special crop..

This is the same year the GAA turned on the money tap and Dublin hired a rake of full-time coaches. So we are looking at the first generation to benefit from that professional coaching structure throughout their underage career, and they just happened to be the best team ever, what a coincidence!

ArielAtom

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This is the same year the GAA turned on the money tap and Dublin hired a rake of full-time coaches. So we are looking at the first generation to benefit from that professional coaching structure throughout their underage career, and they just happened to be the best team ever, what a coincidence!

You do know that the funding would be for primary school going children. The lads on that team would have been leaving primary and going to secondary that year, so did not get the exposure you have stated. Facts are facts, your timeline example here is factually incorrect.

gormdubhgorm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

If you take the Leinster runner up as the second best team in the province, then that was Laois two years ago.

If you take the team closest to Dublin (on the scoreboard) as the second best team, thats Westmeath this year.

I would look on two years ago 2018 as how far in standard Leinster fell as a province. If you want to dress up a fall in standard as a vibrant competitive province, that is your prerogative. But I don't see it like that at all. Super 8's and the NFL prove that bar Dublin Leinster is mickey mouse.



2019 Meath would have won Leinster if Dublin were not in it.
2020 Meath would have won Leinster if Dublin were not in it.

Yet Meath the second best team in Leinster failed to win a league game or even get a draw in div 1. No matter how you spin it Meath are not good enough for div1.

On the other point - I would bring Dublin in at QF stage, which removes the need for all the dead rubbers.

Not a bad idea as it would give Dublin a chance to finish their club championship. But it means keeping antiquated provincials which are not fit for purpose.

I dont agree with your point
on the league, simply as I dont think the teams see it as their number one priority, and it shows.

I disagree 100% div1 (in particular) is normally a good indicator of who has won Sam, or has potential to win Sam, or is an improving team.

Look back from 1997 - 2020 League winners

1997 - 2010

1997 Kerry won League and Sam

1998 Offaly won league and won Leinster 1997

1999 Cork won league and AI runner up

2000 Derry league - Ulster runner up

2001 Mayo league - Connacht runner up

2002 Tyrone League

2003 Tyrone League and Sam

2004 Kerry won League and Sam

2005 Armagh won League (Tyrone div1 League semis and Sam)

2006 Kerry won League and Sam

2007 Donegal won League

2008 Derry won league (Kerry league and Sam runners up)

2009 Kerry won League and Sam

2010 Cork won League and Sam


2011-2020


2011 Cork won league (Dublin league runners up and won Sam)

2012 Cork won league (Cork AI Semi Final - won Munster)

2013 Dublin won League and Sam

2014 Dublin won League, Leinster and get to AI SF

2015 Dublin won League and Sam

2016 Dublin won League and Sam

2017 Kerry won League, Munster and get to AI SF (Dublin win Sam league runners up)

2018 Dublin won League and Sam

2019 Mayo won League

2020 Kerry won League (2019 AI runners up)
**Massive covid19 Asterix on 2020 league though**

For example, Dublin beat Meath by 4 points in the League this year; they were experimenting, trying things out. Championship comes and they are 15 points up after 30 minutes.

I disagree see above div 1 - in particular is a massive indicator of performance of teams.

Plus, Carlow and Turlough O'Brien have proven with the league has shown they improved.

It was greeted like an AI win

https://www.the42.ie/carlow-footballers-earn-promotion-3911557-Mar2018/

At the moment, for me the best competition is the one that starts when we know who the four semi finalists are.

Think about it though, the last four in the AI SF are normally div 1 teams anyway!

You could be right that the League is the way to go, time will tell.

On a completely different issue, your point is well made regarding the challenges Dublin faces. The biggest one is availability of space, the fact that so often underage players are crammed into small spaces on astro pitches for training, or they are training at awkward times, because there simply isnt space available. I see underage teams going out training at 9pm sometimes, its ridiculous. Whatever benefits the county teams enjoy, for me is incidental compared to this issue.

Also, the economies of scale are way different in Dublin. Tryone managed to build a centre of excellence for €8m (2013).

https://www.the42.ie/tyrone-garvaghey-project-1124677-Oct2013/


Yet, Dublin purchased land in Spawell which cost €9m on its own! (2017)

https://www.echo.ie/show/article/dublin-gaa-set-to-buy-spawell-complex-according-to-reports

Gael85

ArielAtom wrote: »

You do know that the funding would be for primary school going children. The lads on that team would have been leaving primary and going to secondary that year, so did not get the exposure you have stated. Facts are facts, your timeline example here is factually incorrect.

And Dublin introduced development squads in 1997 not 2005. These are usually managed by ex Dublin players or county board coaches. Would love to know who the professional coaches are. 😂

The 2011 minor group were been talked up at underage. This group and 2012 minor group are now the backbone of senior team with a lot of the older players gradually been phased out. Ewan McKenna played club football with our club in 2010/11 and never heard him once talk financial doping.

beggars_bush

Sonny678 wrote: »

Meath is the county with most people in the country who are not from the county. 20 years agp when Meath population was 103000 or 50 years ago when Meaths popualation was 66000 most people in the county where from the county. Bernard Flynn constantly talks how Meath has lost its gaa identity in last 20 years with population growth.

In 2016 the 194,302 usual residents of County Meath , only 67,798 (34.9 per cent) were born in the county, the lowest percentage of any county in the State. Half of all residents in Meath were born elsewhere in Ireland. In general, the commuter belt counties of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow had the highest percentage of residents that were not born in the county.

Almost three quarters of Cork and Donegal residents were born in the county,
Of the 1.3 million usual residents in Dublin 880,457 (67 per cent) were born in the county.

The counties who have the most people born in their county who are from the county are Cork, Limerick, Dublin, Donegal, Kerry and Mayo. They are top 6 counties in Ireland who have most people born in their county who are from the county. 5 of those counties have been strong and sucessful recently.

The 4 counties that have the lowest percentage of people born in their county who are not from that county are Meath killdare Wicklow and leitrim. All counties that have struggled in the last ten years.

You cannot be born in a number of counties as they have no hospital or maternity unit
Leitrim
Roscommon
Longford

gormdubhgorm

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This is the same year the GAA turned on the money tap and Dublin hired a rake of full-time coaches. So we are looking at the first generation to benefit from that professional coaching structure throughout their underage career, and they just happened to be the best team ever, what a coincidence!

That is the McKenna argument (a suspect one) however if you read the article about the players and management were heavily Raheny based. One club.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/

Is that a coincidence?

Also if the suspect McKenna argument was true saying finances are the sole reason for improvement. It seems to have major holes in it's thesis.

Why has this argument not shone through in Dublin inter-county hurling where Dublin has dipped since 2013?

Is that a coincidence?

Also Dublin teams have only won two AI club football championships since 2009?

Is that a coincidence?

What I would say is not coincidental is the loss of Boylan, Micko and Paidi to Leinster football. And the various counties subsequent mismanagement.

Gael85

As for playing in CP when Dublin

I suggest you have a gawk at this crop of Dublin players from a Dublin North v Dublin South game in 2005 under 12.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/



[/QUOTE]

Jack McCaffrey, Ciaran Kilkenny and Brian Fenton only players in that programme to start championship game for Dublin. Emmet O'Conghaile came as sub in one championship game and played a good few league games. I see a gang listed on the north side team.

gormdubhgorm

Gael85 wrote: »

As for playing in CP when Dublin

I suggest you have a gawk at this crop of Dublin players from a Dublin North v Dublin South game in 2005 under 12.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/

Jack McCaffrey, Ciaran Kilkenny and Brian Fenton only players in that programme to start championship game for Dublin. Emmet O'Conghaile came as sub in one championship game and played a good few league games. I see a gang listed on the north side team.

Crummy a standout for the southside footballers in my opinion. Magic hurler now.

beggars_bush

There is zero point in other counties putting together plans
They won't get the funding

beggars_bush

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

That is the McKenna argument (a suspect one) however if you read the article about the players and management were heavily Raheny based. One club.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0402/1040302-fenton-mccaffrey-kilkenny/

Is that a coincidence?

Also if the suspect McKenna argument was true saying finances are the sole reason for improvement. It seems to have major holes in it's thesis.

Why has this argument not shone through in Dublin inter-county hurling where Dublin has dipped since 2013?

Is that a coincidence?

Also Dublin teams have only won two AI club football championships since 2009?

Is that a coincidence?

What I would say is not coincidental is the loss of Boylan, Micko and Paidi to Leinster football. And the various counties subsequent mismanagement.

Paidi was in Westmeath for what, one season?

gormdubhgorm

beggars_bush wrote: »

Paidi was in Westmeath for what, one season?

Two, but look had the effect he had in one of those seasons. Great motivator.
Westmeath's only Leinster win ever in 2004.

gormdubhgorm

Sonny678 wrote: »

The finals have been tight. Finals in gaelic football tend to be tight. But there is much more to a season then a final, in league and championship in league games, league semi finals and league finals and q finals and super 8s and semi finals in the championship the Dubs have heavily beaten, hammered and even humiliated the top teams in the country outside leinster for years. Dubs have totally dominated gaelic football nationally recently with 12 national titles in a decade which includes 7 All Ireland titles in 9 years and 5 national league div 1 titles in 6 years. They have gone on the longest unprecedent winning run in football history with unprecedented 40 game unbeaten run in championship, far ahead of anything put together at senior inter-county level ever before. Of the 21 major trophies open to Jim Galvin, All-Ireland, provincial and league, the Dub won 18 of them. Under Galvin that breaks down as six All Irelands, seven Leinsters and five leagues. To win all them Dubs had to beat teams outside Leinster. And on many occasions they heavily defeated teams outside leinster also. Dublin are totally dominating gaelic football nationwide also not just Leinster. And they have heavily beaten all the top teams since they started totally dominating football. Examples below of games v oppostion outside leinster. Remember all these games are v div 1 teams in that year, or teams in All Ireland q final, super 8s, semi final stage.

Interesting, according to Mick O'Dwyer Dublin cannot be considered a 'great team' until they hammer a team in the AI final!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/mick-odwyer-wont-call-dublin-a-really-great-team-until-they-pull-off-one-all-ireland-final-achievement-36699532.html

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/mickos-comments-dublin-really-pissed-people-off-153680


AI Quarter final winning margins:

The six most one sided All-Ireland Quarter-Finals and their margins of victory:

27 points – 2015: Kerry 7-16 – 0-10 Kildare
22 points – 2017: Mayo 4-19 – 0-09 Roscommon
19 points – 2003: Tyrone 1-21 - 0-05 Fermanagh
18 points – 2019: Dublin 2-26 - 0-14 Roscommon
18 points – 2017: Tyrone 3-17 – 0-08 Armagh
18 points – 2018: Tyrone 4-24 – 2-12 Roscommon

Coillte_Bhoy

ShyMets wrote: »

Not every 5 or 6 years. They won three this decade which is good. They won one in the 00's. Two in the 90's. One in the 80's. 4 in the 70's. Two in the 60's and two in the 50's

Yes, thats 15 in 70 years, you work it out. And Mayo have won 22 in that time frame, not that huge a gap really

ShyMets

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Yes, thats 15 in 70 years, you work it out. And Mayo have won 22 in that time frame, not that huge a gap really

If I'm right that's and average of just over two a decade. But if we look at it from 1980. The breakdown is Roscommon 7 titles. Galway 14. Mayo 18.

When put like that the gap is reasonably large. So what you have in Connacht is a Province which is a largely two horse race with Roscommon nabbing a couple of titles every decade.

Coillte_Bhoy

ShyMets wrote: »

If I'm right that's and average of just over two a decade. But if we look at it from 1980. The breakdown is Roscommon 7 titles. Galway 14. Mayo 18.

When put like that the gap is reasonably large. So what you have in Connacht is a Province which is a largely two horse race with Roscommon nabbing a couple of titles every decade.

Well it was you who started with the 1950's in fairness Anyway my point is that it is not a 2 horse race, Roscommon are very competitive in Connacht, they would never ever be taken for granted by the Big Two in the way Sligo and Leitrim usually are, and London too

gormdubhgorm

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Well it was you who started with the 1950's in fairness Anyway my point is that it is not a 2 horse race, Roscommon are very competitive in Connacht, they would never ever be taken for granted by the Big Two in the way Sligo and Leitrim usually are, and London too

You really need 2 fairly equal top div1 teams + a decent side mid div1\top div 2 in a province. Duopolies or one top team is boring for neutrals.

StupidLikeAFox

ArielAtom wrote: »

You do know that the funding would be for primary school going children. The lads on that team would have been leaving primary and going to secondary that year, so did not get the exposure you have stated. Facts are facts, your timeline example here is factually incorrect.

No, you are wrong on that one. You would be correct for any county outside of Dublin, where GPOs are assigned to geographical areas. In Dublin however, they were aligned to each club from 2005, no doubt they did indeed visit some schools but they were also responsible for developing club players, meaning way more professional coaching for the boys in blue compared to any other county

MaccaTacca

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

I'm not aware of the intricacies of Meath but I know that the last period of time Kildare were half way competitive nationally was 2008 to 2012 and it literally broke the county. But sure money has nothing to do with it :rolleyes:

Also, have a look at this before talking about population and how counties should raise more money themselves: https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp2tc/cp2pdm/pob/

It's no surprise that Meath, Kildare and Wicklow have the highest percentage of residents that were not born in the county. I'm sure all these people wandering about Naas, Navan and Bray in Dublin jerseys and shorts in December are more than willing to help out the local county board.

Noone in Bray gives a bollocks about Gah

beggars_bush

ShyMets wrote: »

If I'm right that's and average of just over two a decade. But if we look at it from 1980. The breakdown is Roscommon 7 titles. Galway 14. Mayo 18.

When put like that the gap is reasonably large. So what you have in Connacht is a Province which is a largely two horse race with Roscommon nabbing a couple of titles every decade.

Fairly good for Roscommon considering they've half the population of mayo and one quarter that of Galway
Plus one of the biggest towns in the county is in mayo for gaa

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

beggars_bush wrote: »

Fairly good for Roscommon considering they've half the population of mayo and one quarter that of Galway
Plus one of the biggest towns in the county is in mayo for gaa

They'll pay their rates to Roscommon, but their respects to Mayo.

Cilldara_2000

beggars_bush wrote: »

You cannot be born in a number of counties as they have no hospital or maternity unit
Leitrim
Roscommon
Longford

The place of birth statistics come from the census and on the census form you put the place where your mother lived at the time of your birth as your place of birth.

ArielAtom

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

No, you are wrong on that one. You would be correct for any county outside of Dublin, where GPOs are assigned to geographical areas. In Dublin however, they were aligned to each club from 2005, no doubt they did indeed visit some schools but they were also responsible for developing club players, meaning way more professional coaching for the boys in blue compared to any other county

While you are correct in that the GPO's were assigned to a club that nevertheless does not change their roles. They were tasked in developing Gaelic Games at both codes at primary school going ages. That meant developing relationships with the local schools and giving approx 1hr per month of coaching to the respective classes in each school.

I will share with you a personal journey from Academy through to Minor. You can either accept of dismiss it. Its your choice.

At academy start (5yr olds) the GPO was tasked with on a Saturday morning in our case of identifying parents to mentor these kids through the coming years. I was one of the ones asked to assist. For the 1st two years we would set up our session on a Saturday morning for a 1.5hr session, this was split between Footbal and Hurling. The first month or so we had the assistance of the GPO in heling us understand the structure of the sessions, fun games and inclusion was the message. The GPO would move between the Boys and the Girls groups ensuring the new coaches were OK and if the required guidance he gave.

This would change after year one as the next group would arrive and requite his direction. The one thing that was asked of all parents looking to get involved was that they completed the GAA Foundation coaching program. This was organised by the GPO.

After year two we were allocated an evening training slot and worked on our own, having a year kick off and year end meeting with the GPO to see how we were progressing. The GPO's are spread between all ages from 5-12 and all codes.

After u12 we pretty much had not contact with the GPO bar informal chats on how we were progressing.

So to say that players in Dublin are getting professional coaching from a team of professional coaches is factually incorrect. The GPO's do not try and identify potential IC players. Their mantra is to develop every child to their maximunm ability. This is all done through inclusion, participation encouragement and all with a view to retaining these children into adult games. The high drop off is one of the GAA's biggest concerns and it is in our interest as a society to ensure we keep children engaged as this will benefit them not only health wise going forward but it also helps develop their social skills.

I do wonder how many posters are actually mebers of their local club and how many have actually coached underage games.

IC is a very small part of a great organisation and I know it is a minority who focus on it. Club before County.

ShyMets

beggars_bush wrote: »

Fairly good for Roscommon considering they've half the population of mayo and one quarter that of Galway
Plus one of the biggest towns in the county is in mayo for gaa

Roscommon do ok. The point I was trying make quite badly is that they aren't in a position to compete for a Connacht title year in year out.

To be fair to them it should also be noted that while Roscommon is primarily a footballs there are parts of the south of the county where hurling is very strong.

Tombo2001

ArielAtom wrote: »

While you are correct in that the GPO's were assigned to a club that nevertheless does not change their roles. They were tasked in developing Gaelic Games at both codes at primary school going ages. That meant developing relationships with the local schools and giving approx 1hr per month of coaching to the respective classes in each school.

I will share with you a personal journey from Academy through to Minor. You can either accept of dismiss it. Its your choice.

At academy start (5yr olds) the GPO was tasked with on a Saturday morning in our case of identifying parents to mentor these kids through the coming years. I was one of the ones asked to assist. For the 1st two years we would set up our session on a Saturday morning for a 1.5hr session, this was split between Footbal and Hurling. The first month or so we had the assistance of the GPO in heling us understand the structure of the sessions, fun games and inclusion was the message. The GPO would move between the Boys and the Girls groups ensuring the new coaches were OK and if the required guidance he gave.

This would change after year one as the next group would arrive and requite his direction. The one thing that was asked of all parents looking to get involved was that they completed the GAA Foundation coaching program. This was organised by the GPO.

After year two we were allocated an evening training slot and worked on our own, having a year kick off and year end meeting with the GPO to see how we were progressing. The GPO's are spread between all ages from 5-12 and all codes.

After u12 we pretty much had not contact with the GPO bar informal chats on how we were progressing.

So to say that players in Dublin are getting professional coaching from a team of professional coaches is factually incorrect. The GPO's do not try and identify potential IC players. Their mantra is to develop every child to their maximunm ability. This is all done through inclusion, participation encouragement and all with a view to retaining these children into adult games. The high drop off is one of the GAA's biggest concerns and it is in our interest as a society to ensure we keep children engaged as this will benefit them not only health wise going forward but it also helps develop their social skills.

I do wonder how many posters are actually mebers of their local club and how many have actually coached underage games.

IC is a very small part of a great organisation and I know it is a minority who focus on it. Club before County.

This is 100% a fair reflection, and the reason I made the point earlier that what the GPO has really done in Dublin has helped the clubs leverage the vast volunteer mentor resource.

And also the reason that I mentioned that a disadvantage in Meath and Kildare is that people have long commutes (relatively) and therefore have less time in the day to make available for volunteer mentoring.

And a third important point is that 99.9% of active playing gaa club members never go anywhere near an Intercounty set up. And from that POV, players in Meath, Kildare and elsewhere are at no disadvantage at all.

Meath might be getting hammered by Dublin. But if you look at the club facilities in Vincents or Ballymun Kickhams or Ballyboden, and compare them to the club facilities at Donaghmore Ashbourne, Ratoath or Newbridge Sarsfields or Eire Og in Carlow....the Dublin clubs are very stretched in terms of capacity. For me, the best resourced Dublin clubs are the ones in towns similar to Ashbourne - so that would be Rush (Maurs), Portmarnock or Balbriggan. They are able to build facilities.

That really is the bigger picture that doesnt get discussed very often, when the "all the money goes to the Dubs" conversation comes up.

To give one illustration of how this manifests itself; it was very difficult for kids in Dublin to a Cul Camps place this year (and most years), whereas if you are in Offaly or Laois its much easier.

Tombo2001

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I disagree 100% div1 (in particular) is normally a good indicator of who has won Sam, or has potential to win Sam, or is an improving team.

Thats the only point I'll challenge you on as I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

For me, if Dublin dont win the league and they win the All Ireland, they are 99% happy with how their year has gone. If Dublin win the league and dont win the all Ireland, they are 1% happy with how their year is gone.

For other teams, the League has much greater priority. Monaghan would be the best example. I think at this stage the league is a higher priority for Monaghan than championship - and why not, they get a series of games against the top teams year in year out. And on this basis, the league could become a lot more competitive.

But at the very top level - their is just a lot more bite in the final stages of the AI than in the league.

ArielAtom

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats the only point I'll challenge you on as I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

For me, if Dublin dont win the league and they win the All Ireland, they are 99% happy with how their year has gone. If Dublin win the league and dont win the all Ireland, they are 1% happy with how their year is gone.

For other teams, the League has much greater priority. Monaghan would be the best example. I think at this stage the league is a higher priority for Monaghan than championship - and why not, they get a series of games against the top teams year in year out. And on this basis, the league could become a lot more competitive.

But at the very top level - their is just a lot more bite in the final stages of the AI than in the league.

From an IC persppective I would love to see The Sam Maguire move to league and make it the premier competition. Treat the Championship like the FA Cup. But that will never happen.

Tombo2001

ArielAtom wrote: »

From an IC persppective I would love to see The Sam Maguire move to league and make it the premier competition. Treat the Championship like the FA Cup. But that will never happen.

TBH - fans decide what the premier competition is. Back in the day, the FA cup was the premier competition and they still use the same trophy. The biggest TV audience ever for a sports event in Britain, apart from the 1966 WC Final, was for the FA Cup final in 1970.

If for example the League was run in spring, the clubs in summer, and the AI series in winter.....then you'd be looking at a situation where Dublin is playing Mayo, Kerry, Donegal at CP in February and March; and playing Longford or Wicklow in October. I've a fair idea which games would draw a bigger crowd.

gormdubhgorm

Another exercise which is useful to indicate how far Meath and Kildare have fallen relative to the top 6 six teams in the country (excluding Dublin) is to ask how many Kildare or Meath players would (honestly) get into the starting 15 of the following teams:

Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

Because in my view it is a tough exercise. I am really struggling with it.
The fact I have to properly think about it says a lot.

Meath = Menton and Newman (would they get into any or many of those starting 15's)

They do not even make the best Meath 15's in the last 30 years poll:

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/revealed-the-best-meath-team-of-the-last-30-years-as-voted-by-you-436196

Kildare best starting 15 in the last 30 years as voted in a poll:

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/kildare-15-for-30-revealed-444218

Daniel Flynn now in Australia? Peter Kelly? Honestly, I wouldn't know him if he walked in my front door.

How many household names do Meath and Kildare have these days?

Kevin Feely is useful more known for playing soccer than GAA?

How many people in any GAA household in the country (outside Kildare or Meath) could now rattle off names and say that Meath/Kildare player 'some player'!?

Cilldara_2000

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Another exercise which is useful to indicate how far Meath and Kildare have fallen relative to the top 6 six teams in the country (excluding Dublin) is to ask how many Kildare or Meath players would (honestly) get into the starting 15 of the following teams:

Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

Because in my view it is a tough exercise. I am really struggling with it.
The fact I have to properly think about it says a lot.

Meath = Menton and Newman (would they get into any or many of those starting 15's)

They do not even make the best Meath 15's in the last 30 years in a poll

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/revealed-the-best-meath-team-of-the-last-30-years-as-voted-by-you-436196

Kildare best starting 15 in the last 30 years as voted in a poll:

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/kildare-15-for-30-revealed-444218

Daniel Flynn now in Australia? Peter Kelly? Honestly, I wouldn't know him if he walked in my front door.

Useless whatabouttery.

Whether you know or recall all all star winners in the last 30 years is not a reasonable metric of how good a player was/is.

gormdubhgorm

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Useless whatabouttery.

Whether you know or recall all all star winners in the last 30 years is not a reasonable metric of how good a player was/is.

It is not, does it not tell you something that Meath and Kildare lack quality players?

Where people say xyz fella would walk into most county teams at their peak.

Declan Browne Tipp for instance, Kevin O'Brien wicklow, Dessie Dolan Westmeath, Donie Kingston Laois, Stephen Meiia and Paddy Keenan Louth, Thomas Walsh Carlow, Paul Barden Longford. GAA people would know or remember those lads.

Or fellas even vaguely heard of outside the province as a 'top player' named by pundits?

Who have Kildare and Meath got at the moment?
Fellas who people would say 'jayus some player'...and everyone knows him around the country.

Feck all, if any I would argue.

Or even people who would make those outside the county check the match programme 'What is yer man's name....?' I remember I did that when I saw David Clifford play minor for the first time. Also Quinliven for Tipp at minor.

Meath did not win a game in div 1 and were out of it for 13 years. Kildare are not in div 1 and get beaten out the gate in the Super 8's.

If I was from Meath/Kildare I would be embarrassed. Isn't it any wonder I would want to put the focus on Dublin as the fault? And even see removing Dublin from Leinster as the solution?

I challenge Meath and Kildare people to come up names and why they would get into those top 6 starting teams, excluding Dublin.

Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

Could you get 5 from Kildare? Or 5 from Meath?

I bet it most will be greeted with 'who?' from non-Kildare/Meath posters.

Scoundrel

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is not, does it not tell you something that Meath and Kildare lack quality players?

Where people say xyz fella would walk into most county teams at their peak.

Declan Browne Tipp for instance, Kevin O'Brien wicklow, Dessie Dolan Westmeath, Donie Kingston Laois, Stephen Meiia and Paddy Keenan Louth, Thomas Walsh Carlow, Paul Barden Longford. GAA people would know or remember those lads.

Or fellas even vaguely heard of outside the province as a 'top player' named by pundits?

Who have Kildare and Meath got at the moment?
Fellas who people would say 'jayus some player'...and everyone knows him around the country.

Feck all, if any I would argue.

Or even people who would make those outside the county check the match programme 'What is yer man's name....?' I remember I did that when I saw David Clifford play minor for the first time. Also Quinliven for Tipp at minor.

Meath did not win a game in div 1 and were out of it for 13 years. Kildare are not in div 1 and get beaten out the gate in the Super 8's.

If I was from Meath/Kildare I would be embarrassed. Isn't it any wonder I would want to put the focus on Dublin as the fault? And even see removing Dublin from Leinster as the solution?

I challenge Meath and Kildare people to come up names and why they would get into those top 6 starting teams, excluding Dublin.

Kerry
Tyrone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

Could you get 5 from Kildare? Or 5 from Meath?

I bet it most will be greeted with 'who?' from non-Kildare/Meath posters.

Jesus Christ almighty I've come across some dismissive arrogance in my time but this avalanche of smugness really takes the biscuit. Kevin Feely absolutely roasted Brian Fenton in midfield a couple of years ago Daniel Flynn would walk into most county teams Jimmy Hyland won an under 20 all Ireland by himself a couple of years ago including roasting Dublin in Leinster.

Your ignorance isn't a barometer of how good or bad a player is all i'll say is you must have been some player to dismiss Meath and Kildares current crop as lacking quality. There are several Leinster minor and under 20 champions in Kildares current squad as well as a few under 20 AI winners.

gormdubhgorm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Thats the only point I'll challenge you on as I agree with the rest of what you wrote.

For me, if Dublin dont win the league and they win the All Ireland, they are 99% happy with how their year has gone. If Dublin win the league and dont win the all Ireland, they are 1% happy with how their year is gone.

For other teams, the League has much greater priority. Monaghan would be the best example. I think at this stage the league is a higher priority for Monaghan than championship - and why not, they get a series of games against the top teams year in year out. And on this basis, the league could become a lot more competitive.

But at the very top level - their is just a lot more bite in the final stages of the AI than in the league.

OK I understand what you are saying. Priority and so on. But I would argue at the sharp end the league is a massive indicator of where a team are at. Especially when taken over 2/3 year cycles. Teams might experiment for one year and then show improvement.

From 1997 onwards I would argue this has proven to be the case. As you hear less of 'ah sure it is only the league'. Teams have treated it more seriously over the last 20 years or so. Granted there is some experimentation but it leads to improvement in league standing when looked at over a 2/3 year period

Meath were not in division 1 for 13 years.

When they got promoted it was called massive for 'Meath football' by Meath sleeveless legend Trevor Giles.

https://www.the42.ie/trevor-giles-meath-4598442-Apr2019/

Yet Meath failed to win a game and went straight back down. Because they were just not up to same level. Getting there maybe. Showing improvement maybe. But not there yet.

I remember in the 2010 league being devastated when Dublin did not make the league final - just missed out - head to head hard luck. The Dubs had not being in final since 99 and had not won a league since 93.

Why was I devastated? Because it was a chance for the Dubs to show improvement and win a national title. Plus then Dublin went a step further the next year in 2011 and made the league final. But lost to Cork.

Again I was devastated. I think B Brogan was taken off and the game turned?

But we all know what happened in the 2011 AI final and in the years following for Dublin. By virtue of the fact Dublin just missed out on the 2010 league final and made the 2011 League final losing narrowly had shown signs of an improving team in itself.

I believe the groundwork for Dublin was laid in the league with Pat Gilroy experimenting and doing enough to stay in division 1. Which Dubs were happy with because they could see what he was trying to do - blooding new players. But played conservative football building a solid base. No swash buckling stuff.

This is what I mean by the League improving teams and it can generally be seen in 2/3 year cycles. It shows in league and championship time and again in the last 20 years or so.

gormdubhgorm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Jesus Christ almighty I've come across some dismissive arrogance in my time but this avalanche of smugness really takes the biscuit. Kevin Feely absolutely roasted Brian Fenton in midfield a couple of years ago Daniel Flynn would walk into most county teams Jimmy Hyland won an under 20 all Ireland by himself a couple of years ago including roasting Dublin in Leinster.

Your ignorance isn't a barometer of how good or bad a player is all i'll say is you must have been some player to dismiss Meath and Kildares current crop as lacking quality. There are several Leinster minor and under 20 champions in Kildares current squad as well as a few under 20 AI winners.

OK so you named three Kildare players Feely who I already mentioned, Daniel Flynn who I already mentioned and now fecked off to Australia.

You added another name Jimmy Hyland
(who I will have to look up -
playing in div 2 injury problems - sizzling against Antrim apparently - which I would argue is Kildare's level div2)

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/kildare-antrim-jimmy-hyland-203138

So according to you by your own reckoning Kildare have two decent players in the Kildare panel Hyland and Daniel Flynn. Two players!

Next you have to ask yourself would they get into the starting 15 of the following teams?

Kerry
Tryone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

And why?

Scoundrel

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

OK so you named three Kildare players Feely who I already mentioned, Daniel Flynn who I already mentioned and now fecked off to Australia.

You added another name Jimmy Hyland (who I will have to look up -
div 2 player injured sizzling against Antrim apparently)

So according to you by your own reckoning Kildare have two decent players in the Kildare panel Hyland and Daniel Flynn. Two players!

Next you have to ask yourself would they get into the starting 15 of the following teams?

Kerry
Tryone
Donegal
Mayo
Galway
Monaghan

And why?

Daniel Flynn is not in Australia and played in this years championship and you must have done some very selective googling on Jimmy Hyland to not see his performance in the U20 all Ireland final.

Many Kildare players would get into many of those teams Fergal Conway Neil Flynn Mark Donnelan Paul Cribbin etc. I'm annoyed at myself that i've allowed this nonsense form you to deflect away from the central point of this thread i.e Dublin's massive unfair financial advantages and how that has destroyed the Leinster championship.

gormdubhgorm

Scoundrel wrote: »

You know what you can stick your ignorance up your hole but i'll correct you 1 final time before I put you on mute Daniel Flynn is not in Australia and played in this years championship and you must have done some very selective googling on Jimmy Hyland to not see his performance in the U20 all Ireland final.

Many Kildare players would get into many of those teams Fergal Conway Neil Flynn Mark Donnelan Paul Cribbin etc. I'm annoyed at myself that i've allowed this nonsense form you to deflect away from the central point of this thread i.e Dublin's massive unfair financial advantages and how that has destroyed the Leinster championship.

Why has all these great underage Meath and Kildare players failed to produce outside Leinster at senior and in Div 1 of the NFL? Are they really as great as you think?

Or is it a management and tactical issue? The fact you want to mute me makes it appear you want to stick your head in the sand. The fact Flynn this 'great' player played this year and yet Kildare did nothing of note in Leinster or the league says it all.

Plus, I believe the title of this thread is not Dublin's unfair advantages. But is why Leinster is dead? you are the OP!

So it has been your ulterior motive that is abundantly clear now. It is to have a side swipe at Dublin not to analyse why Leinster is dead as a whole. When I analysed the facts of why Leinster is dead as well as improved Dublin - very poor Meath/Kildare teams div 2 maybe poor div 1 you do not like it. Losing to Westmeath, Carlow and Longford 5 times in the last 10 championships.

It appears your definition of discussion as to why Leinster is dead is based on a very narrow prism of variables.