Will you take an approved COVID-19 vaccine?

is_that_so

brisan wrote: »

I don’t think anybody mentioned enforced vaccinations
I certainly would be strongly opposed to this
If you make a choice to not take the vaccine that is your right
However if you make that choice you have to accept that there will be like in any choice we make consequences
Those consequences may be restrictions placed on what you can and cannot do
If a person chooses to take the vaccine the consequences might be a reaction either severe or mild to the vaccine
We all have the right to choose

It's always been a choice and IMO most people will do that. Restrictions can't really be pushed until we get to adequate supply. I'm not a fan of the likes of employers making unilateral health decisions for employees, especially where herd immunity removes that risk. I don't believe it is a path anyone is too keen to go down anyway.

BryanMartin21

brisan wrote: »

I don’t think anybody mentioned enforced vaccinations
I certainly would be strongly opposed to this
If you make a choice to not take the vaccine that is your right
However if you make that choice you have to accept that there will be like in any choice we make consequences
Those consequences may be restrictions placed on what you can and cannot do
If a person chooses to take the vaccine the consequences might be a reaction either severe or mild to the vaccine
We all have the right to choose

That doesn't sound like a right to choose if freedoms are curtailed for not taking it. What is a mandatory vaccination if what you are insinuating isn't it?

FutureGuy

"The vaccine will have similar symptoms to the virus so why bother" - because I don't want to inadvertently kill one of your parents/grandparents.

"These vaccines are rushed!" - lots of money + reduction of red tape + medical advances = a very quickly developed vaccine that has gone through all the usual tests. We were very licky it was a coronavirus that caused the pandemic as it easier to get a vaccine.

"I read on facebook..." ... Read elsewhere.

"It's a ploy to sterilize the population"...so why is Joan, 96, and Alfred, 89, getting doses and why have the "powers" orchestrated the data to make it look more serious to fertile adults.

So, yeah, the second it is available to me, I will be taking it.

Russman

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

That doesn't sound like a right to choose if freedoms are curtailed for not taking it. What is a mandatory vaccination if what you are insinuating isn't it?

Freedom to do whatever you like is not absolute.
Plenty of countries already restrict access if you haven't had certain shots.
I doubt anyone is in favour of mandatory vaccinations, but I do think certain industries/situations/regions etc., will end up with people needing to show proof of vaccination to be able to join/partake/enter. Personally I think it only makes sense to do this, for a while anyway until the vaccinated group far outnumbers the unvaccinated.

brisan

BryanMartin21 wrote: »

That doesn't sound like a right to choose if freedoms are curtailed for not taking it. What is a mandatory vaccination if what you are insinuating isn't it?

Every choice we make in life has consequences
Some minuscule some major
I remember in college a professor relating a scenario of how we cannot always know the consequences of our choices
He related a scenario where a person took an extra pint after going to watch a rugby match
Long story short it resulted in a business closing down , other smaller businesses
closing down , people not being able to afford medical treatment etc
It’s called the ripple effect
So if you choose not to take a vaccination and the consequences are restrictions are placed on certain freedoms that is your choice
As I said can’t and won’t are different things
If I decide not to get vaccinated
If I was told I could not go to a nightclub or work again (I’m retiring shortly ) it would not bother me in the least
If I’m told I can’t travel abroad then that’s a different story and I’m first in the queue

polesheep

brisan wrote: »

Every choice we make in life has consequences
Some minuscule some major
I remember in college a professor relating a scenario of how we cannot always know the consequences of our choices
He related a scenario where a person took an extra pint after going to watch a rugby match
Long story short it resulted in a business closing down , other smaller businesses
closing down , people not being able to afford medical treatment etc
It’s called the ripple effect
So if you choose not to take a vaccination and the consequences are restrictions are placed on certain freedoms that is your choice
As I said can’t and won’t are different things
If I decide not to get vaccinated
If I was told I could not go to a nightclub or work again (I’m retiring shortly ) it would not bother me in the least
If I’m told I can’t travel abroad then that’s a different story and I’m first in the queue

What you are describing is forced vaccination.

But it won't happen. Covid has been exaggerated since day one and right now people are still attributing far more importance to it than it warrants. It will fade in its importance soon enough.

Many years ago when I was a youngster a man on the street asked a bunch of us kids to collect stones for him off the newly-laid green to use as hardcore for a driveway he was building. He told us that there were too many stones on the green and we wouldn't be able to play football on it. We were young and we fell for it. So, we spent and hour or so picking up stones. As we were finishing, another bunch of boys off the street started playing football. We were indignant, we told them that they couldn't play football as they hadn't picked up any stones. But they just kept playing. Shortly after, we joined in with them and the stones were never mentioned again. I had forgotten about the stones until now, but I imagine some of those other boys are still carrying around a few today.

screamer

unfortunately i won't be allowed to have the pzifer vaccine as i have anaphylaxis to medication. i'm upset about that and hope that i will be able to get one of the others when available.

brisan

polesheep wrote: »

What you are describing is forced vaccination.

But it won't happen. Covid has been exaggerated since day one and right now people are still attributing far more importance to it than it warrants. It will fade in its importance soon enough.

Many years ago when I was a youngster a man on the street asked a bunch of us kids to collect stones for him off the newly-laid green to use as hardcore for a driveway he was building. He told us that there were too many stones on the green and we wouldn't be able to play football on it. We were young and we fell for it. So, we spent and hour or so picking up stones. As we were finishing, another bunch of boys off the street started playing football. We were indignant, we told them that they couldn't play football as they hadn't picked up any stones. But they just kept playing. Shortly after, we joined in with them and the stones were never mentioned again. I had forgotten about the stones until now, but I imagine some of those other boys are still carrying around a few today.

I literally said in a previous post I am against forced vaccines
I am saying you have a choice but as in life every choice comes with consequences and responsibilities
If you don’t want to take the vaccine that is your choice and your right and I have no issue whatsoever with that
If the state or certain companies wish to impose restrictions on those who do not take the vaccine then you will know these restrictions beforehand and can then make an informed choice
Again can’t and won’t are 2 different things

hmmm

screamer wrote: »

unfortunately i won't be allowed to have the pzifer vaccine as i have anaphylaxis to medication. i'm upset about that and hope that i will be able to get one of the others when available.

Luke O'Neill was talking about this on Pat Kenny this morning. There should be a variety of vaccines available early next year, and hopefully at least one of them should be safe for someone like yourself to take.

polesheep

brisan wrote: »

I literally said in a previous post I am against forced vaccines
I am saying you have a choice but as in life every choice comes with consequences and responsibilities
If you don’t want to take the vaccine that is your choice and your right and I have no issue whatsoever with that
If the state or certain companies wish to impose restrictions on those who do not take the vaccine then you will know these restrictions beforehand and can then make an informed choice
Again can’t and won’t are 2 different things

The threat of losing your job or being told that you can never travel if you don't take a vaccine is tantamount to forced vaccination. You are being delusional if you think otherwise.

seamus

is_that_so wrote: »

I'm thinking about what an employer can and should be doing and I really don't share your draconian approach. How can employers insist on vaccinations when the State doesn't?

The same way that an employer can insist that an employee has a certain qualification even if the state doesn't.

It's a grey area. If an employer can justify that employees need to be vaccinated in order to be employed by them, then there's very little an employee can do to fight that. "Justify" being the operative word. If an employee is remote or just does regular office work, an employer will have difficulty justifying the need for vaccination. If an employee works with vulnerable individuals, in a crowded area and/or with considerable contact with the public, then it could be justified.

Think of it like the "No hat, no boots, no job" sign you see up outside building sites. If being unvaccinated is likely to present a risk to you, your co-workers or your clients, then an employer would be able to robustly argue for mandatory vaccination of their employees.

(Worth noting that it will be almost 100% driven by insurance companies and whether they think employer's liability is at risk for unvaccinated employees)

begbysback

Do we have a liquid version, I’m kinda afraid of needles, well not needles themselves, more the pain that they generate.

brisan

seamus wrote: »

The same way that an employer can insist that an employee has a certain qualification even if the state doesn't.

It's a grey area. If an employer can justify that employees need to be vaccinated in order to be employed by them, then there's very little an employee can do to fight that. "Justify" being the operative word. If an employee is remote or just does regular office work, an employer will have difficulty justifying the need for vaccination. If an employee works with vulnerable individuals, in a crowded area and/or with considerable contact with the public, then it could be justified.

Think of it like the "No hat, no boots, no job" sign you see up outside building sites. If being unvaccinated is likely to present a risk to you, your co-workers or your clients, then an employer would be able to robustly argue for mandatory vaccination of their employees.

(Worth noting that it will be almost 100% driven by insurance companies and whether they think employer's liability is at risk for unvaccinated employees)

The insurance companies will be drivers of this to a large extent
The vast majority of health and safety in the workplace is driven by insurance premiums

schmoo2k

Thats me wrote: »

I still interested in any response. It is already known Phizer vaccine can cause serious allergic reaction. Are any pre-tests available? What an allergic person should ask before taking vaccine?

Both folks who had the allergic reaction already carried an adrenaline pen due to their existing allergies.

Am bit surprised that they weren't on the exclusion list though (people with severe allergies) - but that might just be an issue with the UKs documentation?

polesheep

brisan wrote: »

The insurance companies will be drivers of this to a large extent
The vast majority of health and safety in the workplace is driven by insurance premiums

And insurers may also be liable for payouts in the event of successful discrimination claims.

jackal

polesheep wrote: »

The threat of losing your job or being told that you can never travel if you don't take a vaccine is tantamount to forced vaccination. You are being delusional if you think otherwise.

No it is not. A forced vaccination is you being held down and... get this... forcibly injected, against your will. Anything shy of that is not a forced vaccination. It is society saying if you choose to be a black sheep, expect to be treated like one.

This virus has caused so much trouble, lives lost, economies damaged, jobs lost and livelihoods temporarily or permanently ruined, social lives seriously curtailed, travel all but cancelled.

But sure, you keep telling yourself that covid is not that serious and will just go away. Its been what... nearly a year. Has that happened? Why do you expect it to happen?

This was greatly exaggerated at the start, but it is still a very serious disease and, when left unchecked, is killing people at completely unacceptable rates.

eagle eye

brisan wrote:

The difference is can’t and won’t you don’t seem willing to address this A certain cohort of people can’t wear a mask on public transport for medical reasons A certain cohort of people won’t wear masks on public transport Guess which cohort are allowed travel on public transport

Can't and won't? You can't punish people for not taking a vaccine. You can make things awkward for them by protecting society. Thing is that pregnant women unvaccinated oise the same risks.
You haven't thought this out fully or else you are deciding to punish people who haven't broken any laws.

schmoo2k

polesheep wrote: »

The threat of losing your job or being told that you can never travel if you don't take a vaccine is tantamount to forced vaccination. You are being delusional if you think otherwise.

"threat of losing your job" - yes I agree
"you can never travel" - yes - if it was "all" travel.

But neither of those are actually "things" right now nor are they likely to be so. So there is no point in wasting time worrying about it.

polesheep

jackal wrote: »

No it is not. A forced vaccination is you being held down and... get this... forcibly injected, against your will. Anything shy of that is not a forced vaccination. It is society saying if you choose to be a black sheep, expect to be treated like one.

This virus has caused so much trouble, lives lost, economies damaged, jobs lost and livelihoods temporarily or permanently ruined, social lives seriously curtailed, travel all but cancelled.

But sure, you keep telling yourself that covid is not that serious and will just go away. Its been what... nearly a year. Has that happened? Why do you expect it to happen?

This was greatly exaggerated at the start, but it is still a very serious disease and, when left unchecked, is killing people at completely unacceptable rates.

I didn't state that Covid is not serious. I stated that it has been exaggerated. And now that there are vaccines it will be quickly consigned to the past. In the meantime, hunger and disease will continue to ravage the less well off parts of the world, while the West goes back to normal. On a global scale, the effect of Covid on mankind has been minuscule compared to other diseases and especially in relation to hunger.

You seem to have difficulty interpreting the word 'force' in context. You can force a person to do something without ever being physical.

CIARAN_BOYLE

screamer wrote: »

unfortunately i won't be allowed to have the pzifer vaccine as i have anaphylaxis to medication. i'm upset about that and hope that i will be able to get one of the others when available.

It may be possible that they decide that vaccination for people in your circumstances would be appropriate and that you should be monitored for a while after receiving the vaccine to ensure anaphylaxis doesnt occur.

At any rate the british regulator doesnt seem to have consider the issue until after it was approved. Hopefully we have a policy.

polesheep

schmoo2k wrote: »

"threat of losing your job" - yes I agree
"you can never travel" - yes - if it was "all" travel.

But neither of those are actually "things" right now nor are they likely to be so. So there is no point in wasting time worrying about it.

I agree with you and I am not worried about it at all. "I'm locking down so I want everyone to lock down" is becoming "I'm getting vaccinated so I want everyone vaccinated". It annoys me, but you're right, it's a waste of time bothering with it.

speckle

Thats me wrote: »

Thanks, i didn't know that was a special case. In any case, the person has strong reaction on unpredictable factors. I would prefer to have them tested before vaccination. I know normally there should be such option but they were never offered to have it in Ireland. Not sure is it possible to have test in IE or the person should travel to the some low-developed country again to have medical assistance?

If my memory serves me correctly...Gps can order a basic number of them via bloods eg nut cat dog wheat rice egg etc a specialist in a hospital more than that..including scratch and patch tests (my plain english terminology).. very limited if on medical card most comprehensive list of options I saw was from Dr Bruce Mitchell I think he is/was Blackrock clinic but expensive. Warning some good and not so good tests online, you would have to do research on them.

hmmm

schmoo2k wrote: »

Both folks who had the allergic reaction already carried an adrenaline pen due to their existing allergies.

Am bit surprised that they weren't on the exclusion list though (people with severe allergies) - but that might just be an issue with the UKs documentation?

It sounds like an issue with the documentation, although I haven't read it. People with severe allergies were excluded from the trials so that should have been clear (and maybe it was and just missed by whoever was giving the vaccine). It's strange because when I've got other vaccinations I'm always asked whether I've had vaccinations before, which would lead to some discussion about allergies, and should be part of the new protocol - you'd also think that people who have allergies severe enough to carry an epipen would mention it upfront. Probably got lost in the excitement.

speckle

What I want to know is what allergies they had in order to be carrying epipens.. though I respect their privacy... maybe later on this information may be made public allowing them to remain anonymous if they so wish.

schmoo2k

hmmm wrote: »

It sounds like an issue with the documentation, although I haven't read it. People with severe allergies were excluded from the trials so that should have been clear (and maybe it was and just missed by whoever was giving the vaccine). It's strange because when I've got other vaccinations I'm always asked whether I've had vaccinations before, which would lead to some discussion about allergies, and should be part of the new protocol - you'd also think that people who have allergies severe enough to carry an epipen would mention it upfront. Probably got lost in the excitement.

Does anyone know how bad the reaction even was (I assume they didn't die, but did they use their epipens I wonder)?

Also how quick did reaction happen (within 20mins like the Flu one I suspect)

Detritus70

polesheep wrote: »

I didn't state that Covid is not serious. I stated that it has been exaggerated. And now that there are vaccines it will be quickly consigned to the past. In the meantime, hunger and disease bla bla bla, I don't think Covid is serious and my opinion is so much more important since I am an internet radomer and know better and fcuk the people who died.

Yeah. You didn't say it, but you did. Course you did.

You seem to have difficulty interpreting the word 'force' in context. You can force a person to do something without ever being physical.

You know, a pilot will need a pilot's licence to work. DISCRIMINATION! :eek::rolleyes:

For your edification:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/17/success/employer-mandate-vaccine-work-transformed/index.html

The short answer: Yes. An employer can make a vaccination a requirement if you want to continue working there. But there are significant exceptions for potential concerns related to any disability you may have and for religious beliefs that prohibit vaccinations. And experts say that employers are more likely to simply encourage their workers to get immunized rather that issue a company-wide mandate.

I'm sure millions of people will hurridly take on any religion that means they can get out of getting vaccinated.

Some industries already make certain vaccines mandatory. For instance, some hospital workers are required to get flu shots.
But mandating workers get the vaccine for Covid could open employers up to potential workers' compensation claims if an employee has any adverse side effects.

So, short answer yes with a but, long answer, no with an if.
It may have escaped your attention, but your basic rights do not mean only your freedom and your rights are important. There are rules that affect our daily lives that go beyond the constitution.

So, you won't be forced. But there are consequences. You can jump up and down all you want but a fact is a fact is a fact.

brisan

eagle eye wrote: »

Can't and won't? You can't punish people for not taking a vaccine. You can make things awkward for them by protecting society. Thing is that pregnant women unvaccinated oise the same risks.
You haven't thought this out fully or else you are deciding to punish people who haven't broken any laws.

Again you bring up pregnant women who can’t take the vaccine
You do understand the difference between can’t take and won’t take
What if the pregnant woman decides to take the vaccine after the birth and when it is deemed safe to do so
Just heard on the news a snippet where a pub in Mayo is doing rapid tests before allowing customers in
What if that pub decides from Jan 1st 2022 that you must be vaccinated to allow entry
Is that illegal ?
EU are considering banning British citizens from flying into the EU due to COVID concerns
Is that illegal
I am not saying restrictions will occur I am saying I can see a scenario where it could happen
I never even said that I am in favour of restrictions being imposed but I can certainly see a situation where it could be deemed reasonable

polesheep

Detritus70 wrote: »

Yeah. You didn't say it, but you did. Course you did.



You know, a pilot will need a pilot's licence to work. DISCRIMINATION! :eek::rolleyes:

For your edification:

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/17/success/employer-mandate-vaccine-work-transformed/index.html



I'm sure millions of people will hurridly take on any religion that means they can get out of getting vaccinated.



So, short answer yes with a but, long answer, no with an if.
It may have escaped your attention, but your basic rights do not mean only your freedom and your rights are important. There are rules that affect our daily lives that go beyond the constitution.

So, you won't be forced. But there are consequences. You can jump up and down all you want but a fact is a fact is a fact.

Right, I'm only going to reply once and only address the fact that you are clearly willing to lie to make your point. I did not say Covid is not a serious illness. Now, you can withdraw that comment above or leave it and thereby acknowledge that you are a liar. It's up to you.

BryanMartin21

brisan wrote: »

I literally said in a previous post I am against forced vaccines
I am saying you have a choice but as in life every choice comes with consequences and responsibilities
If you don’t want to take the vaccine that is your choice and your right and I have no issue whatsoever with that
If the state or certain companies wish to impose restrictions on those who do not take the vaccine then you will know these restrictions beforehand and can then make an informed choice
Again can’t and won’t are 2 different things

So you're not saying anything really with the first bit in bold.

On the second bit in bold, it's still quite coy what you are getting at but the takeaway from my reading is that you are still proposing mandatory vaccinations. Mandatory does not only mean they pin you down and force it into your body, it also refers to limiting your freedoms in society that you would otherwise enjoy if you had the vaccine.

tom1ie

I will take it but I would like to know if I take the vaccine does this mean I now can’t spread the vaccine if I pick it up when restrictions are stopped.

This interests me as children under 16 won’t be allowed take the vaccine and I have two young kids, one of whom has low white blood cell counts.

So if I pick it up from going for a meal or the pub or gigs etc, could I still spread it after having the vaccine?
No one seems to be able to answer this!