F1 2020: ROUND 15 bahrain GP1

Faugheen

Tzardine wrote: »

I think you are right, he was so fortunate to not black out.

I thought for sure it was a fatality. It reminded me of the Alonso crash from 2016 (which GRO was involved in too incidentally).

I thought Alonso was a gonner when watching it live, but he climbed out of the carnage and strolled away casual. It boggles the mind how strong the monocoque is.

Jesus, looking at that again Alonso was really lucky that the angle of one of the rolls into the gravel took so much momentum out of it.

AMKC

recyclebin wrote: »

Grosjean hands looked pretty burned when he was getting out of the medical car. I still can't believe he was able to walk away from that. I normally don't believe in miracles but I think I witnessed one today.

mickdw wrote: »

Kubica canada looked worse. It was high speed into concrete. The fireball was the bigger problem.in this one.
Ive been watching f1 since 1991 and i cant remember ever seeing a fireball in a crash. Couple.of cases of refueling fires only.
Its pretty amazing how they keep the fluids from going on fire in most cases. Fuel tank, filler and all pipework need to be built such that if any part is pulled / ruptured, no fuel escapes.
Same for hydraulic circuits and likely brakes.
Brawn seemed to believe thst the fire in this case was the result of only a small fuel quantity but given the instant fireball, that is hard to believe.

Ye the Kubica one was bad alright at the time. I guess the Alonso one is just more recent and I remember that one more.

H3llR4iser

mickdw wrote: »

Brawn seemed to believe thst the fire in this case was the result of only a small fuel quantity but given the instant fireball, that is hard to believe.

I've heard the figure of it being 2-3 liters of petrol, which is normally what is contained in the collectors and piping - and it looks about right to me.

Petrol has INSANE energy density, people seem to forget. Verstappen's fire in 1994 was also caused by a very small amount of fuel being spilled around.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Kubica's was much higher speed and into concrete but I think this one was worse - even without the fire. I wouldn't have thought that the Halo was strong enough to protect the drivers head in such a situation but thankfully it did. The deformation of the barrier would have dissipated energy but OTOH it was still a very sudden stop due to getting "caught" in the barrier.

Major question marks over this type of barrier now if there weren't before. It could be that as one of the commentators said, cars are considerably heavier than they used to be, they are also very rigid. I noticed that the nose cone of Grosjean's car wasn't too badly damaged, it speared through the barrier perhaps if it had been knocked off the barrier would have held. Better barriers needed.

These barriers don't belong around a racetrack, it's something that was established decades ago - both times in Watkins Glen, which incidentally STILL has powder blue ARMCO barriers as its most distinctive visual feature.

In 1973, Francois Cevert was basically cut in half by the guardrail; The following season, Helmut Koinigg's Surtees went straight into the guard rail, the bottom part of it separated allowing the car to go through, but the middle blade remained in place, cutting his head clean off of his neck. This is the accident that's shown in the movie "Rush".



Just like yesterday - the guardrail simply pierced on impact, failing to deflect the car and actually worsening the situation by grabbing on it and pivoting it around; The giveaway sign of that is the position the front of the car came to rest, facing backwards from the direction it came from while the skid marks clearly show the impact wasn't head on, but at an almost 45 degree angle. What actually dissipated the energy of the impact was indeed this rotation and most importantly, the engine/gearbox assembly tearing from the survival cell (it's designed to do so).

But let's not be disingenuous here - luck played a HUGE part. One of the guard rail blades could've found its way between the halo and the cockpit opening, with consequences I don't need to elaborate. Or the car could've been coming to a rest lodged in the steel barrier in a way that it covered the cockpit, making escape impossible.

BrianD3

H3llR4iser wrote: »

.
These barriers don't belong around a racetrack, it's something that was established decades ago - both times in Watkins Glen, which incidentally STILL has powder blue ARMCO barriers as its most distinctive visual feature.

In 1973, Francois Cevert was basically cut in half by the guardrail; The following season, Helmut Koinigg's Surtees went straight into the guard rail, the bottom part of it separated allowing the car to go through, but the middle blade remained in place, cutting his head clean off of his neck. This is the accident that's shown in the movie "Rush".

Just like yesterday - the guardrail simply pierced on impact, failing to deflect the car and actually worsening the situation by grabbing on it and pivoting it around; The giveaway sign of that is the position the front of the car came to rest, facing backwards from the direction it came from while the skid marks clearly show the impact wasn't head on, but at an almost 45 degree angle. What actually dissipated the energy of the impact was indeed this rotation and most importantly, the engine/gearbox assembly tearing from the survival cell (it's designed to do so).

Peter Revson was another one, killed at Kyalami and there was a fire as well as a barrier breakage.

There have been a few incidents in more recent times where there was a considerable amount of damage to one of these barriers - if I recall correctly, Hamilton went into one at Spa and there was another incident at Spa a few years before that involving a Minardi

The cars are so strong now and have the Halo and HANS, a huge impact with a concrete wall isn't what it used to be. The main dangers now would seem to be

-flying into the air and landing outside the track or on top of a barrier (even with Halo)
-a side impact from another car
-as illustrated yesterday, barrier failure

Had Senna and Raztenberger been in a modern F1 car they would have walked away from their fatal crashes. An interesting question might be whether Imola with Tamburello and Villeneuve restored to their former glory with an Indy style safer barrier and high friction run off would be safer than some of the current setups, Monaco, Monza, Spa, Montreal, Suzuka or anywhere that there are metal barriers that can be struck like they were yesterday.

MadYaker

Is it standard practice for the safety car to follow the pack for the first lap like that? If not it should be.

afatbollix

The medical car follows the pack for the first lap. This insistent is why it follows the pack off for the first lap which is the most likely to have a crash.


The saftey car is sat in the pit lane ready to be deployed if needed.

Tzardine

I know that the medical car is some sort of relatively quick Mercedes.

But I wonder if there is a quicker car for the job ?

MadYaker

Looks like an E63S, 605hp id say more than relatively quick.

Tzardine

MadYaker wrote: »

Looks like an E63S, 605hp id say more than relatively quick.

Yeah its quick of course, but given the role of the car you would imagine that they would take the absolute quickest available.

A Panamera Turbo S Estate is more powerful and supposedly handles better. Why not have one of them?

Do Mercedes sponsor the FIA i wonder. Safety car also a merc of course. Same argument applies, many faster and more suitable safety cars out there.

El_Duderino 09

Tzardine wrote: »

Yeah its quick of course, but given the role of the car you would imagine that they would take the absolute quickest available.

A Panamera Turbo S Estate is more powerful and supposedly handles better. Why not have one of them?

Do Mercedes sponsor the FIA i wonder. Safety car also a merc of course. Same argument applies, many faster and more suitable safety cars out there.

Ive replied to this in the main F1 chat thread.

donspeekinglesh

It's more than just being quickest. It also has to be able to carry all the necessary equipment too. So load space is a factor, as is comfort - the team in it have to sit in it for all the track action. The car is not standard either - pretty sure it has uprated brakes at least.

Mercedes have provided the safety car (though that's changing for some races next year) and medical car since 1997 I think. Before that it was up to the race promoter to provide, with done inconsistent results, like a Renault Clio safety car...

El_Duderino 09

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

It's more than just being quickest. It also has to be able to carry all the necessary equipment too. So load space is a factor, as is comfort - the team in it have to sit in it for all the track action. The car is not standard either - pretty sure it has uprated brakes at least.

Mercedes have provided the safety car (though that's changing for some races next year) and medical car since 1997 I think. Before that it was up to the race promoter to provide, with done inconsistent results, like a Renault Clio safety car...

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a picture of a Lada safety car at one race.

donspeekinglesh

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a picture of a Lada safety car at one race.

Wouldn't surprise me. I think it could have been a Tatra medical car that ran over Inoue in the 1995 Hungarian GP.

flazio

Another scary fire but the safety car in this instance is a Renault Clio. 1996 Argentina GP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkK46SRdvC4

ro_chez

The reason this was so dramatic was down to Grosjean.

He hit a part of the circuit head on at a place your really not supposed to hit, and due to his own complete incompetence.

He tried a kamikaze dart to the right within the first three corners of the race, due to slower cars in front of him, thinking he could be a superhero in his last few races and get a drive for next year, not giving a second thought to look in his mirrors or who or what is behind him.

An action of a desperate driver, with no racing brain in the heat of battle...but that's not the first time we have seen this, and maybe the real issue here, is the fact he had a seat in F1 up to this point.

All that said though, the F2 boys seemed to navigate this circuit TWICE, without as much as a VSC...

chopperbyrne

ro_chez wrote: »

The reason this was so dramatic was down to Grosjean.

He hit a part of the circuit head on at a place your really not supposed to hit, and due to his own complete incompetence.

He tried a kamikaze dart to the right within the first three corners of the race, due to slower cars in front of him, thinking he could be a superhero in his last few races and get a drive for next year, not giving a second thought to look in his mirrors or who or what is behind him.

An action of a desperate driver, with no racing brain in the heat of battle...but that's not the first time we have seen this, and maybe the real issue here, is the fact he had a seat in F1 up to this point.

All that said though, the F2 boys seemed to navigate this circuit TWICE, without as much as a VSC...

You must have missed the analysis that showed a piece of debris from a car in front hit one of his right tyres, which then made his car swerve right.

This is it

chopperbyrne wrote: »

You must have missed the analysis that showed a piece of debris from a car in front hit one of his right tyres, which then made his car swerve right.

I don't think that's proven or confirmed? I saw the analysis and it looked to me like he was going for the gap to the right because of the 3-4 bunched up cars in front of him with a clear track to the right. You can see him move the steering hard right when his right rear is then caught.

El_Duderino 09

chopperbyrne wrote: »

You must have missed the analysis that showed a piece of debris from a car in front hit one of his right tyres, which then made his car swerve right.

I think that was speculative and mostly to save his blushes at causing such a serious incident. I through they looked for any excuse for him so they didn’t have to stick the boot into him while he was recovering. It looked pretty clear to me. He turned into a gap that wasn’t there.

He has great form for being a headbanger at the start of races. He’s crashed under the safety car (and blamed Ericsson), he’s crashed twice in the pitlane last year.

the_pen_turner

I dont think you can blame the debris. The changes in direction of the car seem to match the changes in steering direction. . If there was no one in Roman's way it would have been an amazing overtake but there was.

H3llR4iser

Tzardine wrote: »

I know that the medical car is some sort of relatively quick Mercedes.
But I wonder if there is a quicker car for the job ?

MadYaker wrote: »

Looks like an E63S, 605hp id say more than relatively quick.

Tzardine wrote: »

Yeah its quick of course, but given the role of the car you would imagine that they would take the absolute quickest available.
A Panamera Turbo S Estate is more powerful and supposedly handles better. Why not have one of them?
Do Mercedes sponsor the FIA i wonder. Safety car also a merc of course. Same argument applies, many faster and more suitable safety cars out there.

It's a C63S AMG Estate - it has to be an estate to carry the medical/safety equipment in the back with quick access.

While Mercedes DOES have a contract with the FOM, that car is plenty fast enough for the job - afterall nothing would be able to keep up with F1 cars anyway, especially carrying equipment.

As for how fast it is...well, I would pay no attention to the claims from Mercedes that these cars are "stock", honestly. I've seen both the SC and the Medical Car doing their Thursday afternoon shakedown in Barcelona, a few years ago, and the latter was EASILY able to keep up with the SLS. They were both driven to the limit (going occasionally over and sideways or "long" into corners). I'd say there are some...sneaky "tunings" on it, especially to the suspension and differential, that make these almost "early '90s DTM" level fast.

flazio wrote: »

Another scary fire but the safety car in this instance is a Renault Clio. 1996 Argentina GP

Yeah - I don't care for people going "oooh, but it's a Clio WILLIAMS, so it was FAAST!". It's a Clio, nowhere near as quick as the SLS they use today.

If you ask me, the SC actually goes around the track too fast for the general safety, especially when it's about collecting the pack. I'm sure there is an issue where current tires are too sensitive to temperature, to the point it's difficult to heat them up from cold, but I'd also say it's the drivers bellyaching a lot about things they normally don't have to do.

ro_chez wrote: »

He hit a part of the circuit head on at a place your really not supposed to hit, and due to his own complete incompetence.

That barrier has no business being where it is, at that angle, in the way it is built. A car might end up there for any number of reasons - collision, mechanical failure, driver blackout and whatnot.

What is however true for ALL drivers nowadays is that they lack respect and behave as if they were driving on a Playstation. Go check some races from the '70s, when they knew an impact meant injury or worse, and how much more respectful of one another they were becomes obvious.

This kind of complacency had already happened in the early '90s, when it was thought fatalities were a "thing of the past".

flazio

ro_chez wrote: »

The reason this was so dramatic was down to Grosjean.

He hit a part of the circuit head on at a place your really not supposed to hit, and due to his own complete incompetence.

He tried a kamikaze dart to the right within the first three corners of the race, due to slower cars in front of him, thinking he could be a superhero in his last few races and get a drive for next year, not giving a second thought to look in his mirrors or who or what is behind him.

An action of a desperate driver, with no racing brain in the heat of battle...but that's not the first time we have seen this, and maybe the real issue here, is the fact he had a seat in F1 up to this point.

All that said though, the F2 boys seemed to navigate this circuit TWICE, without as much as a VSC...

A bit too harsh. Raikkonen had a similar off on the other side but was able to rejoin because of the larger run off on that side. Grosjean seems to be the opposite of Hamilton, very likeable away from the track but his own worst enemy at time between lights out and chequered flag.

El_Duderino 09

flazio wrote: »

A bit too harsh. Raikkonen had a similar off on the other side but was able to rejoin because of the larger run off on that side. Grosjean seems to be the opposite of Hamilton, very likeable away from the track but his own worst enemy at time between lights out and chequered flag.

Yeah I have no desire to stick the boot in. And he does seem like a good lad, comes across as sound. But it was almost certainly his own fault.

Let’s not pretend it wasn’t his fault because he’s a likeable guy. They’re separate issues.

Top Dog

flazio wrote: »

Raikkonen had a similar off on the other side but was able to rejoin because of the larger run off on that side.

Kimi also didn't drive across the nose of another car which kinda helped him escape unscathed

Gaoth Laidir

Hamilton now out of the Sakhir GP after testing positive for COVID. And he doing a lap of honour in the parking area after the race and not wearing a mask.

the_pen_turner

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Hamilton now out of the Sakhir GP after testing positive for COVID. And he doing a lap of honour in the parking area after the race and not wearing a mask.

Surely there will be some penalty or fine for breaching these restrictions.
I noticed when Vettel or leclerc was talking about Roman's crash that sainz was not wearing his mask and talking to someone off screen

Charlie-Bravo

That's right. And the two of them had masks but not wearing them. They're not immune from this problem.

What a nightmare to try and establish both close and casual contacts for Hamilton. Casual contacts will be plentiful during an event like that.

BrianD3

BrianD3 wrote: »

Peter Revson was another one, killed at Kyalami and there was a fire as well as a barrier breakage.

There have been a few incidents in more recent times where there was a considerable amount of damage to one of these barriers - if I recall correctly, Hamilton went into one at Spa and there was another incident at Spa a few years before that involving a Minardi

The cars are so strong now and have the Halo and HANS, a huge impact with a concrete wall isn't what it used to be. The main dangers now would seem to be

-flying into the air and landing outside the track or on top of a barrier (even with Halo)
-a side impact from another car
-as illustrated yesterday, barrier failure

Fire will always be a massive danger. If it wasn't for the HANS device I have little doubt that best-case Grosjean would be been knocked out and we'd be having a very different conversation. Had the car lodged half a foot in a different direction and the halo blocked him it would again be a different conversation, thankfully it worked as intended. Best to not be complacent and look at the Halo as "finished" though IMO.

Had Senna and Raztenberger been in a modern F1 car they would have walked away from their fatal crashes. An interesting question might be whether Imola with Tamburello and Villeneuve restored to their former glory with an Indy style safer barrier and high friction run off would be safer than some of the current setups, Monaco, Monza, Spa, Montreal, Suzuka or anywhere that there are metal barriers that can be struck like they were yesterday.

They easily would have walked away.
Imola could make some changes within the FIA rules/suggestions but it's unlikely for anyone to risk doing anything "against" "safety".
Realistically every barrier should be anchored concrete behind tecpro or ideally SAFER. Modular stuff so it's designed to be damaged and to be replaced quickly and easily. I'm not a huge fan of the barriers (including tyre barriers in some cases) that allow cars to get trapped. TBH I myself had half-forgotten about fire as a major problem in crashes and a metal barrier is more likely to cause an issue above a driver's head than a tyre wall but still.

christy c

Not sure if already posted. An extract from Brundle's column, mentioning the two marshals on the scene of Grosjean's crash. Well done to them.

"Pivotal to all this was Corporal Thayer Ali Taher who crossed the track after the pack was gone and the medical car had stopped, his extinguisher appearing to create a protective cell around the cockpit zone.

Another marshal Sergeant John Matthew on the other side of the barrier was effective too. Both men were from the Bahrain civil defence and were promoted the very next morning, Taher to Sergeant and Matthew to Sergeant Major."

MadYaker

christy c wrote: »

Not sure if already posted. An extract from Brundle's column, mentioning the two marshals on the scene of Grosjean's crash. Well done to them.

"Pivotal to all this was Corporal Thayer Ali Taher who crossed the track after the pack was gone and the medical car had stopped, his extinguisher appearing to create a protective cell around the cockpit zone.

Another marshal Sergeant John Matthew on the other side of the barrier was effective too. Both men were from the Bahrain civil defence and were promoted the very next morning, Taher to Sergeant and Matthew to Sergeant Major."

The guy who ran across the track seems to be getting a bit of stick for it but it looked to me like his burst of the fire extinguisher helped romain get himself out.

christy c

MadYaker wrote: »

The guy who ran across the track seems to be getting a bit of stick for it but it looked to me like his burst of the fire extinguisher helped romain get himself out.

I think it was the guy later in the race getting the stick? (When Perez retired)

flazio

MadYaker wrote: »

The guy who ran across the track seems to be getting a bit of stick for it but it looked to me like his burst of the fire extinguisher helped romain get himself out.

Yeah, it was the idiot who ran in front of Norris. Both the men who attended the Grosjean incident were promoted within their Civil Defence.

Gaoth Laidir

Some great detailed images of the aftermath of the Grosjean crash, explaining how all the safety features worked.

Gaoth Laidir

Gaoth Laidir

Gaoth Laidir

A nice detailed reconstruction of the Grosjean crash, frame by frame.