Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

TheChizler

Stihl waters wrote: »

When they come up with an affordable alternative to burning timber, turf and coal I'll rip out my stove until then I'll keep the home fire burning

Is it affordable? I would have thought it was more economic to heat your home off electricity than solid fuel.

Ubbquittious

Victor wrote: »

Also NOx and possibly small amounts of other pollutants.

Electricity generation probably produces very little particulate matter, as the plants are big enough to allow easy removal. A fair chunk is from transport (leaning towards PM2.5) and in winter a fair chunk is from solid fuel (leaning towards PM10).

There is a yoke you can get on top of your chimney that will draw out nearly all the PMwhatever


But in most places in the country on most days of the year probably very little to be gained from installing it.

John_Rambo

Stihl waters wrote: »

When they come up with an affordable alternative to burning timber, turf and coal I'll rip out my stove until then I'll keep the home fire burning

Who's "they"?

Sometimes it's up to you to take personal responsibility for the greater good without compo culture or enforcement.

Can you upgrade your stove or use a cleaner fuel? Turf and coal are pretty bad for you, your family, your neighbours, your immediate environment and your community. Rather than relying on "them" to give you a hand out and rely on benefits would you consider taking personal actions to improve your air quality? If the answer is no. Fair enough. Enough said.

Ubbquittious

Stihl waters wrote: »

When they come up with an affordable alternative to burning timber, turf and coal I'll rip out my stove until then I'll keep the home fire burning

I won't. Too much enjoyment to be had from loading the fire up with logs and turf, putting a couple of sheepskins down infront of it. Light a few candles and tearing into a fine beour once it gets good and warm. The experience just wouldn't be the same with central heating or an ashoop. Best if this is on an absolutely miserable night with the wind howling. The ban stoves crowd can take a long walk off a short pier. Very suspicious that they would suddenly show up, air quality has been improving for years mostly due to the demise of the carburetted car engine, industry being outsourced to China and the end of smoky coal

beauf

Steyr 556 wrote: »

Wasn't there a ban on smoky fuels (coal etc) in Dublin in the 80s due to smog? It wasn't anything like Victorian era London but it was fairly dire at times.

In remember not being able to see 10-20ft.

Stihl waters

John_Rambo wrote: »

Who's "they"?

Sometimes it's up to you to take personal responsibility for the greater good without compo culture or enforcement.

Can you upgrade your stove or use a cleaner fuel? Turf and coal are pretty bad for you, your family, your neighbours, your immediate environment and your community. Rather than relying on "them" to give you a hand out and rely on benefits would you consider taking personal actions to improve your air quality? If the answer is no. Fair enough. Enough said.

"They" are the people who plead with us to stop burning fossil fuels without providing a viable affordable alternative, the cost to retrofit old homes to modern ways of heating is astronomical even when you include grants, I've priced solar recently and the cheapest price I've got came in around 10 grand, that's not affordable to me at the moment.

I got out of burning turf because of how much you actually need to heat even a small house, now I use a mixture of oil heating for the milder nights and coal and timber for colder weather. I'm all for a cleaner environment but until it's made affordable to people it's all just empty talk. When my current stove has reached the end of its life I'll research affordable clean burning stoves.

What on earth makes you think I rely on hand outs and benefits, I have never gotten any benefits apart from 7 payments of covid payment this year, quite a large assumption to make about someone you don't know. And compo culture? That's a head scratcher, can you explain what you mean by that.

Edit: I also only burn the smokeless coal

Graces7

highdef wrote: »

I've two stoves. I also have a kerosene fed central heating boiler. Sometimes I run out of kerosene and it may be a few days before I can get a refill. Having two stoves in different parts of the house really does come in handy in those situations. Looking at the flames flicker in the stove is therapeutic to me plus the amount of heat that the stoves provide versus the amount of fuel burnt is pretty amazing.

I have a solid fuel stove in the "kitchen" ( very small accommodation here) . It heats the water ( back boiler) very efficiently and will run radiators which I have never needed to use.

Burning smokeless " eggs" with some turf and a little driftwood.

I only need to use it a few hours a day

And yes, the living flame is more than just the heat it gives off.

Stihl waters

TheChizler wrote: »

Is it affordable? I would have thought it was more economic to heat your home off electricity than solid fuel.

Is there any system heats a home off electric that doesn't involve retrofitting and is affordable? I've worked out it costs approximately 1000 a year to heat my house, it's a mixture of coal timber and oil, i wouldn't see the point of spending 1000s on upgrading my heating system when it only costs a grand a year to heat my home

Maybe it's not as bad in Dublin but in regional towns where access to timber coal, turf and timber is more readily available. Someone already linked the Irish Times story where Letterkenny was worse than New Delhi. How is this not deserving of immediate action from the EPA?

Every year more and more houses are getting those solid fuel burning stoves installed and they are lit up at the same time on cold nights. The smoke just sits there. For those sitting cosily beside a lit stove, go out and take a look at your chimney to see the crap you are putting out into a dead still air.

Properly serviced oil boilers and internal combustion engines don't leave the place smothered in smoke.

Stihl waters

Stihl waters wrote: »

When they come up with an affordable alternative to burning timber, turf and coal I'll rip out my stove until then I'll keep the home fire burning

See this here is exactly what I'm taking about. This attitude needs active night time enforcement with stiff penalties. It's the only way you'll hammer the selfishness out of people like this .

Stihl waters

salonfire wrote: »

See this here is exactly what I'm taking about. This attitude needs active night time enforcement with stiff penalties. It's the only way you'll hammer the selfishness out of people like this .

So what would you heat houses with if these houses have only stove heating, hit them with penalties until they sit in the cold unable to heat themselves, very well for new houses that can be built to modern standards but older houses were built to standard for their time, that involved open fires, ranges and oil heating

Graces7

Stihl waters wrote: »

So what would you heat houses with if these houses have only stove heating, hit them with penalties until they sit in the cold unable to heat themselves, very well for new houses that can be built to modern standards but older houses were built to standard for their time, that involved open fires, ranges and oil heating

Too many old folk die every year from hypothermia, worried sick about the cost of heating. And electricity is a poor substitute for living flame. I have lived both ways.

magicbastarder

the *only* good thing about burning turf is the smell. it's pretty **** on all other fronts.

Nermal

TheChizler wrote: »

Is it affordable? I would have thought it was more economic to heat your home off electricity than solid fuel.

Heat pumps are incapable of heating anything that hasn't had six figures spent insulating it. The idea that we will do this to every property in the country is comical. The real alternative to solid fuel burning is natural gas.

TheChizler

Nermal wrote: »

Heat pumps are incapable of heating anything that hasn't had six figures spent insulating it. The idea that we will do this to every property in the country is comical. The real alternative to solid fuel burning is natural gas.

Never mentioned heat pumps. Was thinking plug in heaters. Unless you're getting your solid fuel for free or close to it I'd be surprised how sending 90% of your heat up the chimney could be cheaper than electricity which is notoriously expensive, considering retrofitting anything is apparently off the table. And I include a stove in that.

magicbastarder

i've heard some eye watering stories recently about how badly insulated some houses are. my mother's friend sold her house a few years ago (admittedly a very large one, nearly 3,000sq. ft., built in the late 70s/early 80s, i guess).
during the cold winter we had a few years ago, she had three refills of her heating oil tank.

Stovepipe

Houses built back then were virtually worthless in terms of insulation. You might as well be pouring the oil onto the ground, for all the good it was doing. But even newer houses weren't up to much. My house was built in 2000 and had 100 mm insulation in the attic and that was it. No insulation worthy of the name in the walls. I laid 200 mm rockwool in the attic spaces and a few days ago, got the walls pumped. I have a small stove in the front room, which is infinitely more efficient than the original open fire. heats more space,uses less fuel. I also fitted internal cladding to a converted garage as it was a real heat drain. If I had the money, I'd replace the windows but that's far too expensive right now for me to achieve.

beauf

Any of the 2000 era houses in my area I see getting extensions etc. Generally go back to the walls, and start over basically.

But then again the cost to do that is massive vs just paying for extra oil or gas. With the new regulations thats only got more expensive.

Thelonious Monk

Stihl waters wrote: »

So what would you heat houses with if these houses have only stove heating, hit them with penalties until they sit in the cold unable to heat themselves, very well for new houses that can be built to modern standards but older houses were built to standard for their time, that involved open fires, ranges and oil heating

Why are you living in a house that doesn't have access to modern heating systems?

Pkiernan

Burning coal to stay warm is a sign of an incredibly stupid society.

Paddygreen

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are you living in a house that doesn't have access to modern heating systems?

Probably a peasant who can’t afford to hire Dermot Bannon . That’s no excuse for pollution. A few warm jumpers, star jumps and a blanket should do the trick.

L1011

Green Party spent their last time in Government encouraging people to get wood burners (and to drive diesel cars) based on poor interpretations of science done under a "must be seen to do something" approach.

The air was cleaner when people had gas heated houses and occasionally had a turf fire for atmosphere rather than using a wood burner 180 days a year on cheap wet wood from some local dodgy retailer or petrol station forecourt.

Paddygreen

Pkiernan wrote: »

Burning coal to stay warm is a sign of an incredibly stupid society.

Lovely to watch the warm glow of a coal fire on a cold December night but it is such a slap in Mother Earths face. We have Breaks the third commandment “thou shall not burn coal to heat thyself”

Graces7

Pkiernan wrote: »

Burning coal to stay warm is a sign of an incredibly stupid society.

Why?

Graces7

Paddygreen wrote: »

Probably a peasant who can’t afford to hire Dermot Bannon . That’s no excuse for pollution. A few warm jumpers, star jumps and a blanket should do the trick.

Wondering after this came up way back.. do you drive a car?

beauf

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are you living in a house that doesn't have access to modern heating systems?

It would be interesting if you class houses with "open fires, ranges and oil heating" as not modern. What % of Irish housing have modern heating systems.

If you have an older house I would say pre 2005, so 15yrs + its very likely to need a massive amount of investment in order to make its heating and insulation modern. You are unlikely to see get that investment back if you sell it. So the only people likely to do what is a new buyer, or someone planning to live their for the next 25~30 yrs.

Stihl waters

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why are you living in a house that doesn't have access to modern heating systems?

I have stated already I have a stove and oil central heating, what modern systems would you have me put in to replace them?

Thelonious Monk

beauf wrote: »

It would be interesting if you class houses with "open fires, ranges and oil heating" as not modern. What % of Irish housing have modern heating systems.

If you have an older house I would say pre 2005, so 15yrs + its very likely to need a massive amount of investment in order to make its heating and insulation modern. You are unlikely to see get that investment back if you sell it. So the only people likely to do what is a new buyer, or someone planning to live their for the next 25~30 yrs.

Well yes oil would be a modern central heating system, but people are talking on this like they've no choice but to burn turf etc to heat their houses.
I just don't know why or how you'd end up living in a house where that was the only heating option, in 2020.

Thelonious Monk

Stihl waters wrote: »

I have stated already I have a stove and oil central heating, what modern systems would you have me put in to replace them?

I thought you were reliant on the stove, apologies.

Hector Savage

salonfire wrote: »

Our towns and cities are destroyed with smoke from solid fuel burning stoves, ranges and fireplaces.

On a cold, still night every second chimney has smoke billowing from it that just lingers for the night.

Go outside and you come home stinking of smoke.

The sale of stoves of stoves should be banned and active night-time enforcement with heavy fines for any household allowing smoke escape their chimney.

I grew up in Dublin in the 1980s .... that was smog!!
It was unreal, amazed I didn't get asthma, used to love going out to my cousins in meath for some fresh air!!

Paddygreen

Graces7 wrote: »

Wondering after this came up way back.. do you drive a car?

Absolutely not grace. I live in Dublin. I use public transport and a rechargeable hoverboard. I would use my €3995 bike but I’m terrified of it getting stolen by tracksuited decos.

Hector Savage

Pkiernan wrote: »

Burning coal to stay warm is a sign of an incredibly stupid society.

I know yeah!
Damn those people for not being able to afford those Elon Musk state of the art Li batteries that are mined from slave kids in the Congo!

BattleCorp

Pkiernan wrote: »

Burning coal to stay warm is a sign of an incredibly stupid society.

My Mam is almost 80. She is on the State pension and gets about €250 per week. It's fair to say she doesn't have any spare money at the end of the week.

She lives in a poorly insulated house that's heading for 75 years old and heats her house using a stove. What alternative does she have to using coal?

She doesn't have the capital to invest in better technology. She is hardly unique as many pensioners are in the same boat.

What do you suggest those people do?

Thelonious Monk

BattleCorp wrote: »

My Mam is almost 80. She is on the State pension and gets about €250 per week. It's fair to say she doesn't have any spare money at the end of the week.

She lives in a poorly insulated house that's heading for 75 years old and heats her house using a stove. What alternative does she have to using coal?

She doesn't have the capital to invest in better technology. She is hardly unique as many pensioners are in the same boat.

What do you suggest those people do?

Is gas or oil heating an option? Could the rest of the family not pay for central heating? I can't believe people still live like this.

Paddygreen

L1011 wrote: »

Green Party spent their last time in Government encouraging people to get wood burners (and to drive diesel cars) based on poor interpretations of science done under a "must be seen to do something" approach.

The air was cleaner when people had gas heated houses and occasionally had a turf fire for atmosphere rather than using a wood burner 180 days a year on cheap wet wood from some local dodgy retailer or petrol station forecourt.

What on earth are you talking about? The Green Party assumed that people knew that the best kind of firewood is kiln dried and comes on a nice brand new pallet from scandinavia or one of the Baltic countries.

BattleCorp

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I can't believe people still live like this.

It's not that unbelievable. In 2019, almost 20% of Irish homes were heated primarily using solid fuels.

Harry Palmr

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Is gas or oil heating an option? Could the rest of the family not pay for central heating? I can't believe people still live like this.

I fear you are out of touch. If there was a genuine national survey of living units the percentage that didn't have half the current regs for insulation and does have solid fuel as the only "fixed" point heating would be significant. Esp insulation.

The current grants are too small for a genuine step change.

magicbastarder

Paddygreen wrote: »

What on earth are you talking about? The Green Party assumed that people knew that the best kind of firewood is kiln dried and comes on a nice brand new pallet from scandinavia or one of the Baltic countries.

was it not wood pellet boilers which were really getting the push? i remember stories from years ago about people not storing the pellets correctly and them falling apart and clogging up their boilers.

magicbastarder

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Esp insulation.

and there's a significant amount of housing stock built with cavity block (i've been told there's a good chance my house is one of the earliest) which makes them a PITA to insulate, and the main option people choose is internal slabbing - which is quite disruptive and expensive (not just for the actual install and skimming, but redecoration afterwards also)

gozunda

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I fear you are out of touch. If there was a genuine national survey of living units the percentage that didn't have half the current regs for insulation and does have solid fuel as the only "fixed" point heating would be significant. Esp insulation.

The current grants are too small for a genuine step change.

A significant portion of houses nationally are greater than 30 years old. With many being 50 years plus. And certainly whilst some have undergone insulation and had central heating systems installed - certainly not all. Others due to original construction mean that they can only be upgraded to a point before extensive rebuilding is required.

Many such houses are lived in by the elderly and less well off in my experience.

BattleCorp

gozunda wrote: »

Many such houses are lived in by the elderly and less well off in my experience.

The conditions that many old people are living in are absolutely shocking.

skooterblue2

magicbastarder wrote: »

was it not wood pellet boilers which were really getting the push? i remember stories from years ago about people not storing the pellets correctly and them falling apart and clogging up their boilers.

On a pellet stove and I dont recommend them at all. They are stored correctly and bought in small batches. Sometimes the Auger is either too fast or too slow and it stops up. You would never get that with a solid fuel stove. It is also pressed steel not cast iron and goes cold in 15 minutes compared to cast iron which can stay warm until the morning.

Unless you are compelled with planning permission, stay away from pellet stoves.

magicbastarder

ah - yours is an internal stove, rather than a boiler which would be installed in a garage, say?

TheChizler

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Is gas or oil heating an option? Could the rest of the family not pay for central heating? I can't believe people still live like this.

Even plug-in or storage heaters

beauf

gozunda wrote: »

A significant portion of houses nationally are greater than 30 years old. With many being 50 years plus. And certainly whilst some have undergone insulation and had central heating systems installed - certainly not all. Others due to original construction mean that they can only be upgraded to a point before extensive rebuilding is required.

Many such houses are lived in by the elderly and less well off in my experience.

Why would it be limited those social groups. Its not like vast amounts of the the existing housing stock in all areas and demographics has been demolished and replaced with news builds. Likewise suburban estates built 60~2000.

But as you say you are limited to what you can do for reasonable cost. Especially under the new regulations and grants.

BattleCorp

TheChizler wrote: »

Even plug-in or storage heaters

Again, for a lot of pensioners, the cost of installing such things are prohibitive.

Just a thought. Even if there's a power cut, at least with a solid fuel stove, you won't be without heat. Always good to have a back-up if the power goes out.

TheChizler

BattleCorp wrote: »

Again, for a lot of pensioners, the cost of installing such things are prohibitive.

You can buy 3kW plug-in heaters for less than the price of a bag of coal, and they can be used to heat any part of a house not just the room with a fire.

Harry Palmr

magicbastarder wrote: »

was it not wood pellet boilers which were really getting the push? i remember stories from years ago about people not storing the pellets correctly and them falling apart and clogging up their boilers.

It was, briefly these were the rage in the "lifestyle media" with people talking about getting out of marginal crops and growing elephant grass but it didn't last long.

I notice that dedicated biomass-WPB's are very expensive (10-12k minimum as a CH system) and you need space for the feed and tonnes of storage. Very much a middle class sort of heating style.

beauf

skooterblue2 wrote: »

On a pellet stove and I don't recommend them at all. They are stored correctly and bought in small batches. Sometimes the Auger is either too fast or too slow and it stops up. You would never get that with a solid fuel stove. It is also pressed steel not cast iron and goes cold in 15 minutes compared to cast iron which can stay warm until the morning.

Unless you are compelled with planning permission, stay away from pellet stoves.

I've not first hand experience, but anyone I know with a pellet boiler is constantly fixing and adjusting it. Might be cheap fuel but thats the only thing thats cheap about it. Maybe some people have good experiences.

Graces7

TheChizler wrote: »

You can buy 3kW plug-in heaters for less than the price of a bag of coal, and they can be used to heat any part of a house not just the room with a fire.

Then you get the electricity bill...with solid fuel you buy as you need.

I, like many old folk, have the choice. I choose and prefer a solid fuel stove It heats the tank of water too. And costs less to heat than electricity.

NB the coal I buy costs E9.