Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

Ubbquittious

ongarite wrote: »

Plenty of people burning smoky coal all over the country.
Look on the Bargain Alerts forum & a discussion there on sourcing coal cheap from NI or other sources that is against the law to use/burn.
The thousands of enquiries there show people don't give a damn about the environment, only their pocket.

The sulphur helps slow down global warming

Atlantic Dawn

TheChizler wrote: »

I can't remember where I saw the source of those figures but they had graphs with the PM2.5 and PM10 levels perfectly overlapping, PM10 is diesels primarily isn't it? So if both fires and diesels peaked at the same time does it point towards weather conditions more than a significant increase in source?

Source probably constant over the last few weeks, the weekend wasn't particularly cold, think it was just the lack of wind and the atmospheric conditions that kept it floating around. Tomorrow night with 0 degrees forecast from 6pm onwards should see the fires lit

L1011

Diesels are a huge source of all this - again, entirely the fault of the Green Party inducing people to replace nearly new petrols with asthmatic killers.

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

Diesels are a huge source of all this - again, entirely the fault of the Green Party inducing people to replace nearly new petrols with asthmatic killers.

Possibly something to do with the motor manufacturers who lied about their emissions levels perhaps?

3d4life

L1011 wrote: »

Diesels are a huge source of all this - again, entirely the fault of the Green Party inducing people to replace nearly new petrols with asthmatic killers.

Thats as maybe but its houses getting stoves that are the issue around my way. ( cars dont produce wood smoke )

To be a la mode one must have a stove.

Atlantic Dawn

Why is nobody questioning what is going on if this is responsible for circa 1300 deaths of vulnerable people a year in this country, not too far off current Covid?

Air pollution causes 1,300 premature deaths here each year, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.

ercork

TheChizler wrote: »

I can't remember where I saw the source of those figures but they had graphs with the PM2.5 and PM10 levels perfectly overlapping, PM10 is diesels primarily isn't it? So if both fires and diesels peaked at the same time does it point towards weather conditions more than a significant increase in source?

You can see all these numbers and charts on airquality.ie - the data on there comes from the EPA and some other bodies who do monitoring, e.g., Dublin City Council.

When you see readings for PM10 bear in mind that this refers to all particles with a diameter of 10 microns or less. So it includes particles with a diameter of 2.5 microns also, i.e., PM2.5 So on a chart that has both PM10 and PM2.5 the PM10 trend will almost always be bigger than the PM2.5. If the two are equal it means all of the PM10 are PM2.5 - if that makes sense!

Most of the particulates, be they PM10 or PM2.5, are from solid fuel burning - coal wood or peat. Transport does create some but the main pollutant from transport is NO2. Some of the stations on the site above measure NO2 as well as PM and you can see peaks at different times of the day to coincide with rush hour, etc.

TheChizler

ercork wrote: »

When you see readings for PM10 bear in mind that this refers to all particles with a diameter of 10 microns or less. So it includes particles with a diameter of 2.5 microns also, i.e., PM2.5 So on a chart that has both PM10 and PM2.5 the PM10 trend will almost always be bigger than the PM2.5. If the two are equal it means all of the PM10 are PM2.5 - if that makes sense!

Very informative post thank you, I thought it was basically one or three other. Obvious now when I think about it.

L1011

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Possibly something to do with the motor manufacturers who lied about their emissions levels perhaps?

The fraud was in NOx and CO2 primarily; not particulate matter.

The Irish Green Party were, and as far as I can tell still are, actually incompetent when it comes to implementing positive changes. They gave us asthmatic killing diesels and hundreds of thousands of people burning cheap wet wood and returning us to 1980s levels of smog all due to being bloody awful at their stated roles.

Hotblack Desiato

Graces7 wrote: »

Too many old folk die every year from hypothermia, worried sick about the cost of heating. And electricity is a poor substitute for living flame. I have lived both ways.

Yeah I remember hearing that 30+ years ago when introducing the Dublin smoky coal ban was being talked about.

It was a crock of shít then, too.

magicbastarder

L1011 wrote: »

hundreds of thousands of people burning cheap wet wood

i don't remember any push or incentive to install stoves? bar wood pellet stoves which are a different kettle of fish.

was there a grant that i don't recall?

John_Rambo

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't remember any push or incentive to install stoves? bar wood pellet stoves which are a different kettle of fish.

was there a grant that i don't recall?

I think they just got popular, but not everyone got clean burn stoves which led to some careless people burning unseasoned or even wet wood which sort of defeats the purpose.

magicbastarder

they definitely did get popular, i just don't remember the greens having any input into that. if anything, i would expect the greens promoting it to turn people off, based on most people's attitude to them.
i bought my first stove in about 2004 or 2005, and they were already beginning to get popular, and that was before the greens had their first dice with power.

and regarding diesel, it wasn't just the greens, governments all over europe were pushing for diesel incentives. the proportion of new diesel car registrations (as a fraction of total cars sold) went from 15% to 60% in europe between 1990 and 2010. the greens first got into government very near the end of that period.

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/15/9541789/volkswagen-europe-diesel-pollution

Hotblack Desiato

Stovepipe wrote: »

a double-door airlock for the front door.

Round here we call that a porch

John_Rambo

magicbastarder wrote: »

they definitely did get popular, i just don't remember the greens having any input into that. if anything, i would expect the greens promoting it to turn people off, based on most people's attitude to them.
i bought my first stove in about 2004 or 2005, and they were already beginning to get popular, and that was before the greens had their first dice with power.

and regarding diesel, it wasn't just the greens, governments all over europe were pushing for diesel incentives. the proportion of new diesel car registrations (as a fraction of total cars sold) went from 15% to 60% in europe between 1990 and 2010. the greens first got into government very near the end of that period.

https://www.vox.com/2015/10/15/9541789/volkswagen-europe-diesel-pollution

I think there's a cohort of people in Ireland that think it's popular to blame the greens on everything.

Harry Palmr

Stoves became popular when it became clear that they were less bothersome than an open fire
It was also just still the Celtic Tiger era when having something new and swish was a whole way of life. BMW, stove, decking, Bulgarian apartment.

AndrewJRenko

L1011 wrote: »

The fraud was in NOx and CO2 primarily; not particulate matter.

The Irish Green Party were, and as far as I can tell still are, actually incompetent when it comes to implementing positive changes. They gave us asthmatic killing diesels and hundreds of thousands of people burning cheap wet wood and returning us to 1980s levels of smog all due to being bloody awful at their stated roles.

Bit of 20/20 hindsight in play there about the diesels.

What has wet wood stoves got to do with the Greens?

Atlantic Dawn

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Looks like last weekend was particularly bad in Dublin...



https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/1201/1181748-air-pollution/

Funnily enough, it was last Saturday night that prompted me to start this thread.

For those people say it is due to poverty, poverty does not explain those houses spending €1000s getting a new stove installed. This should be halted right away at least

Ubbquittious

salonfire wrote: »

Funnily enough, it was last Saturday night that prompted me to start this thread.

For those people say it is due to poverty, poverty does not explain those houses spending €1000s getting a new stove installed. This should be halted right away at least

Ya it should cost less than 1000 anyway

Ubbquittious

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Ya it should cost less than 1000 anyway

To rip out old fireplace, buy new stove, install new stove, buy flu lining, install flu lining, buy new hearth, install new hearth, buy new fireplace, install new fireplace, redecorate, maybe replace flooring?


Nah, don't think so

Hotblack Desiato

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Bit of 20/20 hindsight in play there about the diesels.

Dieselgate was about NOx. It's not hindsight about diesel particulates, it's always been known they emit plenty of soot, it's just that "climate change goals" were given more consideration than human health.

3d4life

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Ya it should cost less than 1000 anyway

Supply stove, install & make good typically 2k - 4k.


Installing a stove in nothing to do with poverty.

Ubbquittious

3d4life wrote: »

Supply stove, install & make good typically 2k - 4k.


Installing a stove in nothing to do with poverty.

I put in a whole central heating system and stove with back boiler for that price. It is a pain if you need a slinky for the chimney but I was lucky I didnt

magicbastarder

about five years ago we paid €2k for supply and fit of a small 4k stove. we spent 800 on the stove and the rest went on fit and the various flue pieces to marry it to the chimney, including the flexible steel flue for a two storey house.
could have gotten a cheaper stove for half the price, but when we knew we were spending the guts of 2k anyway, decided it'd be a false positive to get a cheap one.

Ubbquittious

Jeez. I must go into business installing stoves, never knew such amounts were spent on them. Another 2 we have back home are homemade jobs.

magicbastarder

i priced it myself, the flue would have been €400 IIRC, and the various other gubbins another few hundred. so it worked out at about €400 for install, and when i saw the job they had i figured that was money well spent.

ExMachina1000

salonfire wrote: »

Funnily enough, it was last Saturday night that prompted me to start this thread.

For those people say it is due to poverty, poverty does not explain those houses spending €1000s getting a new stove installed. This should be halted right away at least

Iv been eyeing up a new stove. It's big enough to put a full bale of briquettes in. No need to take the the strapping off either. Probably won't get it sorted this year though unfortunately.

BattleCorp

3d4life wrote: »

Supply stove, install & make good typically 2k - 4k.

Installing a stove in nothing to do with poverty.

It can be. Installing a stove for under €2k is financially more attractive to someone with very little spare money when compared to about €6k+ to put in oil fired central heating.

Yes, the central heating would be a better job in the long run, but for some people, they just can't afford the investment.

salonfire wrote: »

For those people say it is due to poverty, poverty does not explain those houses spending €1000s getting a new stove installed. This should be halted right away at least

My uncle put in a stove in his house for about €1000. He didn't have to rip out his entire fireplace or do much cosmetic work. He had to remove the fire back which he did himself at no cost. The only cosmetic work he did was to put a steel plate behind the stove to block off the fireplace. I think it was about €60 for the plate and someone to cut it. He fitted it himself.

Granted, this was a stove replacing an open fire and not one that is connected to central heating. It would certainly cost thousands for that type of system.

magicbastarder

Wood burners triple harmful indoor air pollution, study finds

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-burners-triple-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-study-finds

My main surprise from that is that the air in the houses was already so close to what is considered safe - and I would assume permanently so.

And I'd be curious about how good a draw they have on their stoves. I don't see blowback into the room after chucking a log on, or smell any either.

TheChizler

magicbastarder wrote: »

Wood burners triple harmful indoor air pollution, study finds

Coming from always having had an open fire and now plans to get a stove I'm a little bit "so what", it has to be an improvement right?

magicbastarder

it doesn't say in the article what the levels as a result of an open fire would be, unfortunately.

ExMachina1000

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Iv been eyeing up a new stove. It's big enough to put a full bale of briquettes in. No need to take the the strapping off either. Probably won't get it sorted this year though unfortunately.

Burning the straps gives off savage toxins

Sardonicat

Dubmany wrote: »

What made a big difference in reducing smoke levels in Dublin and other cities was the introduction of the smoky coal ban (you can burn smokeless coal instead). That ban was extended to towns over 10,000 people this September. The problem is that it hasn't fed through or isn't being enforced.

I didn't get that memo! Did this get any publicity at all?

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

Coming from always having had an open fire and now plans to get a stove I'm a little bit "so what", it has to be an improvement right?

If you ever develop asthma and struggle to breathe in polluted air, that's exactly what I would say to you and all you'd deserve: "so what"

TheChizler

salonfire wrote: »

If you ever develop asthma and struggle to breathe in polluted air, that's exactly what I would say to you and all you'd deserve: "so what"

That's a little rude. We are of course talking about indoor pollution from a stove inside the house, which the occupant tends to have control over. If I or someone in my household were to ever develop asthma I just wouldn't use the fireplace/stove if it aggravated it.

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

That's a little rude. We are of course talking about indoor pollution from a stove inside the house, which the occupant tends to have control over. If I or someone in my household were to ever develop asthma I just wouldn't use the fireplace/stove if it aggravated it.

Yeah but not as rude as intentionally releasing particulates into your neighbours lungs and their asthmatic/COAP/CF lungs by burning in a fireplace or stove.

Wait till they ban turf....it'll kick off then

magicbastarder

it's starting to happen:

Government plans new year ban on sale of all smoky fuels

Coal, peat briquettes, sod turf and wet wood will all be targeted on a phased basis. The move comes amid ongoing concerns over the health effects of air pollution

https://www.businesspost.ie/climate-environment/government-plans-new-year-ban-on-sale-of-all-smoky-fuels-de5875ce

TheChizler

salonfire wrote: »

Yeah but not as rude as intentionally releasing particulates into your neighbours lungs and their asthmatic/COAP/CF lungs by burning in a fireplace or stove.

Maybe you'd have a point if that was in any way related to the article I was talking about.

OscarMIlde

TheChizler wrote: »

That's a little rude. We are of course talking about indoor pollution from a stove inside the house, which the occupant tends to have control over. If I or someone in my household were to ever develop asthma I just wouldn't use the fireplace/stove if it aggravated it.

Except these affect all around them. My neighbour got an extension and has some type of wood burner in it, with an illegally low outpipe. When he starts burning his noxious crap, the smoke enters my rental house. Due to the layout of the house our sitting room and bedroom is at the back of the house, so the fumes are in our most lived in spaces.
As soon as it starts up my asthma gets aggravated and I'm audibly wheezing. Happens like clockwork every evening around half seven when your man gets home from work. I have had to buy three air filtration units to try and minimise the effects on me. I've actually had to leave work early on two occasions this year as I was struggling to breathe with my mask on as my I forgot to turn on a filter in my bedroom before I went to bed, and ended up wheezing for days afterwards. My health is suffering because of obnoxious, selfish gits like him.

Stovepipe

Well, if it's affecting your health, do something about it instead of moaning on here. Start by either planting a shovel in his face to make him stop or call the Gardai/County Council/Bord Pleanala/your local TD/your solicitor and get them to do something about it. If the exhaust outlet is as illegal as you say, then he will have to either raise it to an acceptable height or scrap it. Apart from that,if the property is rented, get the landlord involved, as it is affecting his property.

magicbastarder

There are people near us who definitely are not burning solid fuel in their stove/fireplace. A friend of my wife works as a carer and years ago used to have to call to a house where they burned adult nappies in the fire. She said the smell in the place was horrendous.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

There are people near us who definitely are not burning solid fuel in their stove/fireplace. A friend of my wife works as a carer and years ago used to have to call to a house where they burned adult nappies in the fire. She said the smell in the place was horrendous.

Fùuuuuk
I've heard of 'Flush or burn' waste disposal , but this is both

OscarMIlde

Stovepipe wrote: »

Well, if it's affecting your health, do something about it instead of moaning on here. Start by either planting a shovel in his face to make him stop or call the Gardai/County Council/Bord Pleanala/your local TD/your solicitor and get them to do something about it. If the exhaust outlet is as illegal as you say, then he will have to either raise it to an acceptable height or scrap it. Apart from that,if the property is rented, get the landlord involved, as it is affecting his property.

I contacted the council and never heard back. They own the house, I am the person renting.

Graces7

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I contacted the council and never heard back. They own the house, I am the person renting.

Try EPA. They can motivate the council. Good luck as that is dreadful.

Stovepipe

You need to keep nagging the council and get a county councillor or a TD on your side and keep the pressure on. This is a life-critical issue so start fighting them and keep doing so. You have to have a word with the neighbour and explain to him how dangerous it is for you. Get a CO monitor and put it in your living spaces and monitor the air and show the results to the county councillor or TD. If all it takes is a few feet of stainless steel flue, get the neighbour to fit it. If he refuses, tool up a solicitor. Get onto the Consumer Rights crowd,too.

BattleCorp

salonfire wrote: »

Yeah but not as rude as intentionally releasing particulates into your neighbours lungs and their asthmatic/COAP/CF lungs by burning in a fireplace or stove.

How do you suggest an old person with no money heats their house then?

OscarMIlde

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I contacted the council and never heard back. They own the house, I am the person renting.

Do they own both houses??

ercork

BattleCorp wrote: »

How do you suggest an old person with no money heats their house then?

Low smoke coal should be used instead of standard coal. This is a legal requirement in town/cities with a population of above 10k. It should also be recommended in smaller towns and villages.

Another option to look at is electric heating. This can actually work out cheaper than burning coal in an open fire - plus there is no air pollution and no hassle with setting the fire, cleaning the ashes, etc.

BattleCorp

ercork wrote: »

Low smoke coal should be used instead of standard coal. This is a legal requirement in town/cities with a population of above 10k. It should also be recommended in smaller towns and villages.

Another option to look at is electric heating. This can actually work out cheaper than burning coal in an open fire - plus there is no air pollution and no hassle with setting the fire, cleaning the ashes, etc.

I sort of agree with you. Electric is the way to go in such a scenario. But many old people are afraid of the electric bill. They've no idea how much electricity they are using so they'd have no idea how much their bill will be in two months time. It's easier for them to budget when buying bags of coal. You know exactly how much you are using and how much you are spending.

Regarding using low smoke coal v standard coal. I suppose when you are from rural Ireland, it all depends on the type of coal your local dealer is stocking.