Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

BattleCorp

John_Rambo wrote: »

That's a sly way to punish elders that want to warehouse their property tax until it's sold. What county council is that?

A Co. Council in Leinster. Lets leave it at that.

John_Rambo

BattleCorp wrote: »

A Co. Council in Leinster. Lets leave it at that.

It's no skin off you nose to name the Coco. Either way, if you're close to this person you should dig deeper. I'd do it for my folks

Stihl waters

Talking about grants, clare co co were giving grants to elderly people up to a couple of years ago for solid stoves, a relation of my mother changed out her perfectly good oil stove for a solid burning stove, how does that make sense? so she has to haul in turf and timber instead of just hitting a switch on a wall and all the cleaning that goes with it, they could still be offering the Grant's for all I know, it seems a very regressive step for a council to be offering grants for something like this

Deemed as Normal

I hear the rate of strokes goes up in an area where there has been a lot of smoke pollution. As far as I know the statistics for strokes actually rises in city areas after cold nights.

AndrewJRenko

BattleCorp wrote: »

Here's one example of how grants are difficult for old people

One old person I know applied for a council grant to get their heating system upgraded. They had oil powered central heating but their burner was absolutely antique. I think it was on Noah's Ark.

The person filled in the forms and applied for the grant. They were refused because they were behind on their property tax. This old person didn't actually realise that property tax was still a thing. There was over €500 owed in property tax and zero chance that the old person would be able to come up with the money to pay the property tax.

Secondly, even if they got the grant, they would have had to make up a shortfall as the grant doesn't cover 100% of the work. They didn't have this money either.

So, the grant system that is in place doesn't suit those who most need it.

Do you really think it is hugely unreasonable of Government to not be dishing out grants to people who aren't tax compliant?

blackbox

Deemed as Normal wrote: »

I hear the rate of strokes goes up in an area where there has been a lot of smoke pollution. As far as I know the statistics for strokes actually rises in city areas after cold nights.

I'd like to see the source of this information, but even if true, did it ever cross your mind that it might be due to the cold rather than the pollution?

blackbox

blackbox wrote: »

I'd like to see the source of this information, but even if true, did it ever occur cross your mind that it might be due to the cold rather than the pollution?

Dementia and strokes

https://www.homecare.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1636915/scientists-link-dementia-fires-home

https://www.thejournal.ie/rise-in-strokes-rise-in-air-pollution-dublin-5172724-Aug2020/

mickuhaha

Deemed as Normal wrote: »

I hear the rate of strokes goes up in an area where there has been a lot of smoke pollution. As far as I know the statistics for strokes actually rises in city areas after cold nights.

This is true but it is close to half the risk for such conditions with having alcohol and being overweight, just for context.

BattleCorp

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you really think it is hugely unreasonable of Government to not be dishing out grants to people who aren't tax compliant?

It's fully legal for an old person on not much money to defer their property tax until their death. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If it's legal to do, the Council shouldn't use it as a bar to give grants to old people to put a modern heating system into their fridge of a house.

Graces7

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's fully legal for an old person on not much money to defer their property tax until their death. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If it's legal to do, the Council shouldn't use it as a bar to give grants to old people to put a modern heating system into their fridge of a house.

Thank you!

AndrewJRenko

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's fully legal for an old person on not much money to defer their property tax until their death. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If it's legal to do, the Council shouldn't use it as a bar to give grants to old people to put a modern heating system into their fridge of a house.

She hadn't deferred though, she just hadn't paid.

Why couldn't she just arrange the deferral and then apply again for the grant?

BattleCorp

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

She hadn't deferred though, she just hadn't paid.

Why couldn't she just arrange the deferral and then apply again for the grant?

It's true, she didn't defer it. The Council deferred it for her.

The point is that it was deferred, so she should have gotten the grant.

We are talking about people who have fcukall money and are living in poor conditions. Why make things harder for them.

2lazytogetup

There is a constitutional reason why property tax is not necessarily due till a house gets sold or proprietor dies.

When you pay tax, income, vat or any tax you are paying a contribution to state cause they indirectly make services available.

With property tax, there is a philosophical or jurisprudence issue in a man in his castle not receiving any services and not having money owing property tax.

2lazytogetup

Back on topic, I was out for a stroll this evening and its shocking the smoke in the air going into my lungs. Id say if there wasn't the whole c19 taking our focus, this air pollution would be making front pages of the news. It's depressing. You would think we live in Texas with our attitudes that we can do what we wantin our houses and feck anyone outside.

Thread on UCC research into air pollution issue
Worth follow if interested

https://twitter.com/CRAClabUCC/status/1278382212233285633?s=19

mickuhaha

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Thread on UCC research into air pollution issue
Worth follow if interested

https://twitter.com/CRAClabUCC/status/1278382212233285633?s=19

I think the last date of recording for that paper was January 2016,so a bit out of date. Some might correct me if I am wrong.

mickuhaha

mickuhaha wrote: »

I think the last date of recording for that paper was January 2016,so a bit out of date. Some might correct me if I am wrong.

It gives some info on the smokey material origin though.

magicbastarder

One thing I would say about the photo used to illustrate that is that if my stove was smoking as much as the chimneys in that photo, I'd assume there was something wrong with it. Most of the focus recently had been on stoves, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that open fires cause the majority of urban and suburban pollution.

AutoTuning

All I can tell you is I grew up in and had my early childhood before the smoky fuel ban, which only happend in 1995 in Cork and before that we lived in Dublin towards the end of the smokey fuel era and it took a few years to die out.

The area where I grew up was full of retrofitted back boilers (boilers that sat behind an open fire in the fireplace) due to a spike in oil prices in the 70s and early 80s and they were often used instead of or along side oil central heating.

Open fires burned in most houses all winter. Coal bunkers. The coal man etc etc were common features of life.

I remember, as a small kid, my mam bringing in laundry covered in "smuts" (lumps of soot).

I used to develop really bad chesty coughs and I remember black stuff coming out of my nose. I also developed endless sinus problems and ear infections that did serious damage to one of my ears, ultimately necessitating complex ear surgery in my late teens and I'm still left with had tinnitus and on going problems in that ear. It works, but not as it should do.

All of my ENT and chest problems abruptly ended when the smokey fuel ban came in and after we moved house.

There was a very rapid replacement of heating systems in the 1990s with gas. You probably remember the 50:50 cashback jingle? That had *huge* impact on air quality in Dublin and Cork in that era.

I can only conclude that my issues were smoke pollution related. Nothing else makes sense as they stopped, never recurring again as soon as the smoke stopped. However I'm left with a life long damaged middle ear due to countless ear infections in the late 80s and early 90s and a big scar up the back of my ear and into my scalp from surgery.

This stuff isn't some hippy dippy green issue or something to be sneered at. It is a very real hardship for many people. Just because you might feel you're not being impacted by smoke doesn't mean someone else isn't.

This is a very Irish and very rural problem because we often seem to bring practices that might be of little impact in a house in a feild into the middle of a city, a town or a housing development with density of population.

As a nation I think we have an inability to get out heads around the fact that urban and rural are not the same thing. There are certain levels of compromise and cooperation needed in cities and towns to make things work and one of those is managing air pollution outputs much more rigorously than in rural settings.

Also urban does not end at the M50 in Dublin. There are 4 other significant cities, but there are other smaller urban areas that have serious problems with smoke pollution, yet are put into "down the country mode" in the way we tend to think about them. Some of them even form parts of the hinterlands of our cities and are growing as satellite towns yet are still considered villages.

All or that stuff feeds into what is increasingly looking like a very odd Irish problem that is making us an outlier in western Europe. For all our images of clean, green countryside in the marketing campaigns, we manage to choke ourselves in totally unnecessary had quality air.

Graces7

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Back on topic, I was out for a stroll this evening and its shocking the smoke in the air going into my lungs. Id say if there wasn't the whole c19 taking our focus, this air pollution would be making front pages of the news. It's depressing. You would think we live in Texas with our attitudes that we can do what we wantin our houses and feck anyone outside.

Wear a mask? it is bitterly, dangerously cold these days. And as others have said, many of us older folk have hard choices cost wise.

Here I burn smokeless coal and local turf.

air

With respect Graces7, you live on an offshore island, you could probably burn plutonium without causing much issues for your neighbours
The thread is about urban areas. These tend to be reasonably well served with natural gas and other alternatives that are as cheap or cheaper than damaging solid fuels per unit of heat delivered.

Graces7

air wrote: »

With respect Graces7, you live on an offshore island, you could probably burn plutonium without causing much issues for your neighbours
The thread is about urban areas. These tend to be reasonably well served with natural gas and other alternatives that are as cheap or cheaper than damaging solid fuels per unit of heat delivered.

I care about you!

And I could heat gas or electric here as we have that choice too so the choice is the same and the cost is the same. ie solid fuel works out much cheaper and we pay as we go.

Unless you are living on a pension you cannot really evaluate and blame.

So the same applies. ie this is not about causing pollution but about cost. It really is at base. Wherever you live. OK? OK!

I have electrically fuelled central heating here but I have never ever turned it on and never will.

plutonium eh? Interesting idea..I will look into that immediately ... Folk used to burn dried cow dung...

2lazytogetup

Anyone know if smoke particles from your neighbour burning wood gets into your house even if windows are closed.

I can't smell the smoke but I read this matter is microscopic so I assume im breathing it in in my sleep.

Chris_5339762

The grants don't work anyways, a grant of €1000 just means the installation cost is €1000 higher and the company installing it pockets the grant. Its rife down here.

highdef

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Anyone know if smoke particles from your neighbour burning wood gets into your house even if windows are closed.

I can't smell the smoke but I read this matter is microscopic so I assume im breathing it in in my sleep.

Well I'm in a rural area and slurry is sometimes spread in the field across the road. Whilst it can completely stink to the point of retching if I exit the house, once the windows are all closed and I am inside, I don't smell a thing inside so I can assume that the microscopic particles don't get inside and I would have to assume that the same could be said for smoke. So you can probably assume that you aren't breathing it in in your sleep.

BattleCorp

highdef wrote: »

Well I'm in a rural area and slurry is sometimes spread in the field across the road. Whilst it can completely stink to the point of retching if I exit the house, once the windows are all closed and I am inside, I don't smell a thing inside so I can assume that the microscopic particles don't get inside and I would have to assume that the same could be said for smoke. So you can probably assume that you aren't breathing it in in your sleep.

If you can smell it, you are breathing it in. Maybe not in a strong enough quantity to do any damage though. Can't say for sure.

ercork

highdef wrote: »

Well I'm in a rural area and slurry is sometimes spread in the field across the road. Whilst it can completely stink to the point of retching if I exit the house, once the windows are all closed and I am inside, I don't smell a thing inside so I can assume that the microscopic particles don't get inside and I would have to assume that the same could be said for smoke. So you can probably assume that you aren't breathing it in in your sleep.

The spreading of slurry on fields causes the release of ammonia into the air. This is a corrosive gas/liquid which can be damaging to the eyes and respiratory system if the levels are high enough. It can also cause damage to nearby plants and ecosystems. It is a different pollutant to particulate matter (PM) which is produced from solid fuel burning.

PM is more like a very fine dust particle. If inhaled it can irritate the lungs and cause breathing difficulties. If the particles are small enough they can pass through the lungs and enter the bloodstream. These very fine particles are associated with increased risk of heart disease, strokes and other issues.

It is important to point out that just because you cannot see or smell smoke does not necessarily mean that these microscopic particles aren't present in the air. All solid fuels produce them, it is just a question of how much. The best way to know how good the air quality is in your area is to have a look at the EPA air quality monitoring data - data is available for many parts of urban Ireland at this stage. With regard to indoor air, certainly you won't get plumes of smoke like if you were standing next to your neighbour's chimney. However, as the indoor air ultimately comes from outside, it is likely to contain similar levels of PM as the ambient outdoor air.

Bottom line, burning solid fuels in an urban area is bad for public health. If you can avoid solid fuel, you should. If you can't, you should use the low-smoke versions - low smoke or "smokeless" coal is better than normal coal; kiln dried wood is better than wet or "green" wood; peat briquettes are better than sod turf, etc.

senordingdong

salonfire wrote: »

Our towns and cities are destroyed with smoke from solid fuel burning stoves, ranges and fireplaces.

On a cold, still night every second chimney has smoke billowing from it that just lingers for the night.

Go outside and you come home stinking of smoke.

The sale of stoves of stoves should be banned and active night-time enforcement with heavy fines for any household allowing smoke escape their chimney.

You're right. It's very bad in Dublin. Where I live I have to jog with a face covering at night because it's so bad.

2lazytogetup

highdef wrote: »

Well I'm in a rural area and slurry is sometimes spread in the field across the road. Whilst it can completely stink to the point of retching if I exit the house, once the windows are all closed and I am inside, I don't smell a thing inside so I can assume that the microscopic particles don't get inside and I would have to assume that the same could be said for smoke. So you can probably assume that you aren't breathing it in in your sleep.

Tks Highdef. I hope the slurry isn't too bad. At least its a field, and not an eyesore or a housing estate.

Theres a new free app from NUIG , models air pollution/quality etc.

StreamAir-AQ

0lddog

Graces7 wrote: »

I care about you!

And I could heat gas or electric here as we have that choice too so the choice is the same and the cost is the same. ie solid fuel works out much cheaper and we pay as we go.

Unless you are living on a pension you cannot really evaluate and blame.

So the same applies. ie this is not about causing pollution but about cost. It really is at base. Wherever you live. OK? OK!

I have electrically fuelled central heating here but I have never ever turned it on and never will.

plutonium eh? Interesting idea..I will look into that immediately ... Folk used to burn dried cow dung...

Bottled gas ... probably the most costly form of energy in the country - delivered off-shore ... cant imagine price/kWhr

Can you choose your own electricity plan ( bonkers.ie etc ) ? If so, then 'leccy might be on

As for pluto....ask Jacob before proceeding. That trendy 'glow in the dark' look may inhibut his nocturnal activities.



As for stoves etc, the last three weeks I'm away from them and am breathing normally with no 'unexplained' sub 90% SpO2 events...

magicbastarder

0lddog wrote: »

As for stoves etc, the last three weeks I'm away from them and am breathing normally with no 'unexplained' sub 90% SpO2 events...

i know i'm banging a drum here, but i strongly suspect that the majority of this issue is open fires and/or people burning **** they're not supposed to be burning.

0lddog

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know i'm banging a drum here, but i strongly suspect that the majority of this issue is open fires and/or people burning **** they're not supposed to be burning.

It may well be the case for you - but not for me :mad:

Stovepipe

he's not talking about you...he's talking about other people burning plastic in their stoves or open fires. Some people throw in their packaging and it often contains plastics, so it will clog up their chimney flue or the contents will not burn fully and will exit via the chimney into the atmosphere. @ercork, why not get your house checked for air leaks by an insulation company. You might need to get your ventilation sorted out.

senordingdong

magicbastarder wrote: »

i know i'm banging a drum here, but i strongly suspect that the majority of this issue is open fires and/or people burning **** they're not supposed to be burning.

You're both right.
In my neighbourhood it's mostly old houses with old people in then. They rarely put bins out on bin day but burning a solid fire, including their rubbish, is the cheapest way to hear their homes.

ercork

Article on poor air quality in Galway:

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/119098/smoky-coal-causing-health-problems-to-families-on-citys-east-side

senordingdong

ercork wrote: »

Article on poor air quality in Galway:

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/119098/smoky-coal-causing-health-problems-to-families-on-citys-east-side

The article reads well but in my experience, local authorities have no teeth to enforce these issues.

Bobblehats

ercork wrote: »

Article on poor air quality in Galway:

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/119098/smoky-coal-causing-health-problems-to-families-on-citys-east-side

That’s the rastafarians

senordingdong

senordingdong wrote: »

The article reads well but in my experience, local authorities have no teeth to enforce these issues.

Exactly
They can't do anything to a home owner who drives out of a restricted area, buys "un-low-smokey" coal and drives back in to burn it.
They should be able to catch people burning waste , by demonstrating they've no waste collection service, but this might be an effort.

senordingdong

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Exactly
They can't do anything to a home owner who drives out of a restricted area, buys "un-low-smokey" coal and drives back in to burn it.
They should be able to catch people burning waste , by demonstrating they've no waste collection service, but this might be an effort.

Apparently in the UK they have hand held thermometers and can tell from the heat of your chimney if you are conforming, and can fine you there on the spot.
Here, a stern talking to.

But I want to add that I don't find smokeless coal particularly smokeless

senordingdong

senordingdong wrote: »

Apparently in the UK they have hand held thermometers and can tell from the heat of your chimney if you are conforming, and can fine you there on the spot.
Here, a stern talking to.

But I want to add that I don't find smokeless coal particularly smokeless

A lot of it isn't a smokeless as reported.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/tax-free-coal-from-north-a-burning-issue-for-smokeless-fuel-1.4342981

senordingdong

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

A lot of it isn't a smokeless as reported.

But the logic put out by advocates of these stoves is that their fuel is 'smokeless'. As if to say 'we're not living in a scene from Angelas Ashes, so it's grand'. It puts out less smoke, so therefore I'm being... 'less poisoned'?

golfball37

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either. I'm not gonna let my children freeze because someone from a leafy suburb doesn't like the smell they can't get. If Eamon Ryan wants to pay for my living room to be upgraded to something else he can pay for it, otherwise I'll continue to put my family's welfare and comfort ahead of Facebook groups and their faux outrage.

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited. The coal vendors here have to take my address when I buy smokey and verify I'm in a designated area. They don't sell if you live in town so the myths that the town( in our case anyway) are full of people burning smokey coal is just more looking to be offended bull.

golfball37

golfball37 wrote: »

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either. I'm not gonna let my children freeze because someone from a leafy suburb doesn't like the smell they can't get. If Eamon Ryan wants to pay for my living room to be upgraded to something else he can pay for it, otherwise I'll continue to put my family's welfare and comfort ahead of Facebook groups and their faux outrage.

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited. The coal vendors here have to take my address when I buy smokey and verify I'm in a designated area. They don't sell if you live in town so the myths that the town( in our case anyway) are full of people burning smokey coal is just more looking to be offended bull.

Not sure has anyone said the towns are full of people burning smokey coal, but I'm sure some do.

But if you lived in a city pre ban, you'll know all about smells in leafy suburbs, and I'm sure the faux outraged there are as concerned for their kids premature death and/or poor health from respiratory issues as you are of your kids comfort and health.

You might have no choice in what you burn if the nationwide ban goes through.

The big problem will be how do they police burning turf and harvest windfall trees.

magicbastarder

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

The big problem will be how do they police burning turf and harvest windfall trees.

windfall trees are an issue if burned green. *far* less so if seasoned. but many people won't listen to that logic.
freshly felled wood is about 50% water. if you try to burn that, most of the heat goes to boiling that water off (and making a mess of your chimney) rather than heating your house.

Stovepipe

golfball37 wrote: »

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either.
How old is your house? What are you doing to heat the rest of the house ? get some insulation put in or do it yourself.

magicbastarder

magicbastarder wrote: »

windfall trees are an issue if burned green. *far* less so if seasoned. but many people won't listen to that logic.
freshly felled wood is about 50% water. if you try to burn that, most of the heat goes to boiling that water off (and making a mess of your chimney) rather than heating your house.

And actually dangerous to the structure of your chimney, and health from creosote formation

magicbastarder

yeah, the creosote issue was what i was alluding to.

it's kinda nuts how wet fresh wood is. people just don't realise; i do woodturning as a hobby and you quite literally get showered if turning fresh wood.

air

golfball37 wrote: »

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited.

The thread is about smoke pollution in urban areas.
It's entirely your own decision if you want to put your children's health at risk by using an open fire for heating and you're unlikely to damage anyone's health in your location.

air

air wrote: »

The thread is about smoke pollution in urban areas.
It's entirely your own decision if you want to put your children's health at risk by using an open fire for heating and you're unlikely to damage anyone's health in your location.

May in fact damage their own long term according to recent research