Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

Thelonious Monk

golfball37 wrote: »

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either. I'm not gonna let my children freeze because someone from a leafy suburb doesn't like the smell they can't get. If Eamon Ryan wants to pay for my living room to be upgraded to something else he can pay for it, otherwise I'll continue to put my family's welfare and comfort ahead of Facebook groups and their faux outrage.

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited. The coal vendors here have to take my address when I buy smokey and verify I'm in a designated area. They don't sell if you live in town so the myths that the town( in our case anyway) are full of people burning smokey coal is just more looking to be offended bull.

Why did you buy/rent a house with no heating in this day and age?

beachhead

Dubmany wrote: »

What made a big difference in reducing smoke levels in Dublin and other cities was the introduction of the smoky coal ban (you can burn smokeless coal instead). That ban was extended to towns over 10,000 people this September. The problem is that it hasn't fed through or isn't being enforced.

There is no enforcement of the smoky coal ban or of any other products producing pollution.The quango tasked with enforcing the ban(initailly based in Kilkenny City)was abolished/dissolved at least 8 years ago.The local councils are not interested in enforcement and never have been since the quango's disappearance.Perhaps the Greens could set it up again staffed by their buds.

John_Rambo

It's down to personal responsibility. Like Covid-19.

Morons will continue to act irresponsibly and spread the disease.

Morons will continue to act irresponsibly and burn dirty fuel.

Unfortunately the morons & their kids will catch the disease.

Unfortunately in both cases innocent people & kids will catch Covid and suffer from dirty fuel.

Silly morons.

senordingdong

golfball37 wrote: »

All I have to heat my entire living room is an open fire. The difference between smokey coal and smokeless in terms of heat and value for money is vast. I cannot afford to install central heating either. I'm not gonna let my children freeze because someone from a leafy suburb doesn't like the smell they can't get. If Eamon Ryan wants to pay for my living room to be upgraded to something else he can pay for it, otherwise I'll continue to put my family's welfare and comfort ahead of Facebook groups and their faux outrage.

I live in rural Ireland, far away from anywhere inhabited. The coal vendors here have to take my address when I buy smokey and verify I'm in a designated area. They don't sell if you live in town so the myths that the town( in our case anyway) are full of people burning smokey coal is just more looking to be offended bull.

Don't let your children freeze...just slowly poison them.
You live rural and this thread is about pollution in urban areas. Faux outrage indeed.

2lazytogetup

people that burn wood in stoves, do they get hit with pollution, or does it all go up the chimney and the stove contains the fumes?

Irish people are inherently selfish, so the only way to stop them burning wood is to say they are doing themselves and family harm.

I cant see current govnerment doing anything. FF are at the wheel and they rely on the grey vote.

air

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

As has been said already in this thread, the bigger issue is that there is no practical way to control what gets put into them.

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

BattleCorp

air wrote: »

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

As has been said already in this thread, the bigger issue is that there is no practical way to control what gets put into them.

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

If that's the case, then there needs to be grants for people who don't have the financial means to upgrade their heating systems and insulation.

Otherwise those who don't have much money will suffer.

TheChizler

air wrote: »

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

Burning your dinner has harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home. Everything is a poison in the wrong quantities. It's all relative. That recent report didn't give the figures for open fire pollutants but if one was 100 times less than the other it wouldn't worry me, but if they were similar that would be cause for concern.

TheChizler

TheChizler wrote: »

Burning your dinner has harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home. Everything is a poison in the wrong quantities. It's all relative. That recent report didn't give the figures for open fire pollutants but if one was 100 times less than the other it wouldn't worry me, but if they were similar that would be cause for concern.

Other way around?

TheChizler

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Other way around?

You could technically interpret what I said both ways but only 1 makes sense in the context? If there's a difference I'd expect an open fire to be worse than a stove.

magicbastarder

air wrote: »

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

here endeth the charcoal barbeque...

2lazytogetup

air wrote: »

Unfortunately even burning well seasoned timber in a stove has been shown to have harmful effects on the indoor air quality within the home.

As has been said already in this thread, the bigger issue is that there is no practical way to control what gets put into them.

In the longer term it would seem that a total ban on solid fuel burning in urban areas is the only realistic way forward.

Unfortunately??!! I can feel better knowing that when I'm out for a walk and breathe householders poisoning air, at least they are getting it worse. They deserve it. I'm talking urban houses with audis and mercs in driveway. Not rural houses with no alternative

ercork

There hasn't been very much research performed on indoor air quality to date. A recent study carried out in Britain did show some worrying results from wood burning in stoves:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/18/wood-burners-triple-harmful-indoor-air-pollution-study-finds

magicbastarder

i don't see how the focus would be on stoves based on that (and it's a small sample size, 19 stoves; )

"Wood burners cause less indoor pollution than open fires. “But every time you open the door, you reduce the stove to an open fire and particulate matter floods into the home,” he said. The peaks take an hour or two to dissipate. "

if opening a stove simply to load it causes that much of a spike, surely there would be much more concern about open fires?
our stove might be opened for about 30s in total in several hours of burning. i suspect there could be issues with the draw on some of the ones they tested.

Stovepipe

I did a practical test; I went outside and looked around, at 3 pm today, cloudless sky, in my rural housing estate of thirty houses. My stove is currently burning wood and has little or no visible emissions and the same applies to my neighbours, left and right. The guy across the road is using an open fire and must be burning coal as there is a very visible trail of smoke. My stove is not a big unit and will only emit smoke inside the house if I provoke it, as the CO meter does not go off unless I provoke it! The fireplace that it replaced would set off the alarm, if the door was opened quickly or if a strong wind sent a draught back down the chimney.

2lazytogetup

Stay safe people. Right now it's so cold that half the country has a fire going. Even being briefly outside is filling your lungs, blood stream etc with crap.

TheChizler

Stovepipe wrote: »

I did a practical test; I went outside and looked around, at 3 pm today, cloudless sky, in my rural housing estate of thirty houses. My stove is currently burning wood and has little or no visible emissions and the same applies to my neighbours, left and right. The guy across the road is using an open fire and must be burning coal as there is a very visible trail of smoke.

I've done similar with our open one (which I only light on windy nights and will be replacing with a stove), neighbours would have thick billowing clouds all night long which has to be coal or turf, whereas we only burn kiln-dried hardwood and you'd struggle to see anything.

senordingdong

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Unfortunately??!! I can feel better knowing that when I'm out for a walk and breathe householders poisoning air, at least they are getting it worse. They deserve it. I'm talking urban houses with audis and mercs in driveway. Not rural houses with no alternative

This is what really gets me. The stoves aren't connected boilers etc so they exist only for aesthetic, 'I love having a real fire' etc, it's a waste of money and is making air pollution so much worse.
And all these affluent people voting Green. Christ.

senordingdong

senordingdong wrote: »

This is what really gets me. The stoves aren't connected boilers etc so they exist only for aesthetic, 'I love having a real fire' etc, it's a waste of money and is making air pollution so much worse.
And all these affluent people voting Green. Christ.

My sitting room open fire only heads the sitting room. Very inefficient.
The stove in the kitchen with decent fuel will heat the kitchen, hall and if I open the double doors to the sitting room, that as well.

senordingdong

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

The stove in the kitchen with decent fuel will heat the kitchen, hall and if I open the double doors to the sitting room, that as well.

And then a case can be made for keeping it. Especially rurally.
But a case can't be made for a stove that poorly heats one room, in an urban area.

magicbastarder

you have the wrong stove if it 'poorly' heats one room. we've a small (~4kW) room heater stove, and if we keep the door closed in that room, it's unbearable when the stove is lit.

we lit the fire a few times in that room before we got the stove installed. with the open fire, we had to keep the door closed to keep the heat in; with the stove we have to leave the door open to let it out.
and that's one other reason open fires are so inefficient; an open fire basically acts as a pump to pump the air in the room up the chimney, air which you've warmed with the fire. with the door open, it basically sucked cold air into the room.

Graces7

0lddog wrote: »

Bottled gas ... probably the most costly form of energy in the country - delivered off-shore ... cant imagine price/kWhr

Can you choose your own electricity plan ( bonkers.ie etc ) ? If so, then 'leccy might be on

As for pluto....ask Jacob before proceeding. That trendy 'glow in the dark' look may inhibut his nocturnal activities.


As for stoves etc, the last three weeks I'm away from them and am breathing normally with no 'unexplained' sub 90% SpO2 events...

Interesting the different ways we see things.

I chose bottled gas for cooking as it is cheaper than electricity and if we get power cuts it is still there. All electric houses are not wise.

One bottle lasts me well over 4 months, at E32, and that does all my cooking and heats water for dishes etc. Paying up front works best for me. And I prefer the immediacy of gas cooking.

I use electricity for lighting and the computer and microwave. Very low user..nd I get an allowance of course.

The solid fuel stove heats the water tank. And as I am in and out a lot and this place is small; it is never in an enclosed unventilated space. Very well aware of the dangers of CO2 poisoning.

It is my sole heater.

Each to their own way of dealing with these things. And cost is a large part of this.

Graces7

magicbastarder wrote: »

you have the wrong stove if it 'poorly' heats one room. we've a small (~4kW) room heater stove, and if we keep the door closed in that room, it's unbearable when the stove is lit.

we lit the fire a few times in that room before we got the stove installed. with the open fire, we had to keep the door closed to keep the heat in; with the stove we have to leave the door open to let it out.
and that's one other reason open fires are so inefficient; an open fire basically acts as a pump to pump the air in the room up the chimney, air which you've warmed with the fire. with the door open, it basically sucked cold air into the room.

Excellent appraisal. Like most folk in rentals we have to take what is there and I was very happy to find a stove here. My place is small and the stove works well. The room door is never closed.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Stay safe people.

I sincerely hope you're extracting the piss.

mickuhaha

2lazytogetup wrote: »

Stay safe people. Right now it's so cold that half the country has a fire going. Even being briefly outside is filling your lungs, blood stream etc with crap.

Buy an N100 mask and you will be fine.

Very smokey in Cork tonight
Macroom must be on fire


https://airquality.ie/readings?station=EPA-67&dateFrom=09+Jan+2021&dateTo=09+Jan+2021

Thelonious Monk

https://mobile.twitter.com/CAugustenborg/status/1347956142987767815

Bray today. That's just awful.

mickuhaha

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/CAugustenborg/status/1347956142987767815

Bray today. That's just awful.

If you check the air quality for bray yesterday both pm2.5 (under 10ug/M3) considered good and O3(under 70ug/M3) considered moderate levels.

senordingdong

mickuhaha wrote: »

If you check the air quality for bray yesterday both pm2.5 (under 10ug/M3) considered good and O3(under 70ug/M3) considered moderate levels.

This is part of the problem, the instruments have too large of an area to cover.
I expect the station in bray is not on the main street.

Thelonious Monk

mickuhaha wrote: »

If you check the air quality for bray yesterday both pm2.5 (under 10ug/M3) considered good and O3(under 70ug/M3) considered moderate levels.

Certainly doesn't look moderate, I wouldn't want to be living in that.

Looks like the PM monitor is offline or something
Its a flatline


https://airquality.ie/readings?station=EPA-13&dateFrom=09+Jan+2021&dateTo=10+Jan+2021


Is ozone not a summer traffic problem ?

magicbastarder

also created by photocopiers. maybe there was a lot of photocopying going on in bray...

mickuhaha

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Certainly doesn't look moderate, I wouldn't want to be living in that.

Looks can be deceiving. That could be fog or steam from a factory. Unless you test it you won't know what's in the air.

Thelonious Monk

mickuhaha wrote: »

Looks can be deceiving. That could be fog or steam from a factory. Unless you test it you won't know what's in the air.

Are there many factories in downtown Bray?

highdef

Due to the cold weather yesterday, most of the country was covered in a thin layer of very very cold air at the surface with warmer air above. The very cold air contained some frozen moisture and it partly condensed leaving a thin layer of mist hugging the ground. Attached is a photo I took shortly after sunrise yesterday morning, taken from a drone in North Kildare with the view looking south across the plains of Kildare, with the Dublin/Wicklow mountains in the clear air above in the distance.

It's not smog.

mickuhaha

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are there many factories in downtown Bray?

No but there is a river right beside it. So fog can easily form here.

magicbastarder

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

https://mobile.twitter.com/CAugustenborg/status/1347956142987767815

Bray today. That's just awful.

the office (which i don't go into anymore) is a fairly tall one out leopardstown direction. it's quite common to see a brown haze over dublin on cold mornings, due to the temperature inversion; we'd have been looking into it from above it but at a very shallow angle.

whether or not its pertinent, it's interesting to note how humid the weather has been over the last five or ten years. we used to be occasionally able to see the cooleys/mournes but that became less common as the years went on. i was in the office during the big freeze in 2010 and the air was so clear the mournes looked like they could have only been 20km away (the covering of snow clearly helped with visibility too).

senordingdong

mickuhaha wrote: »

No but there is a river right beside it. So fog can easily form here.

That's a fair point.

But can anyone tell me, does fog impede the dispersal of smoke?

highdef

senordingdong wrote: »

That's a fair point.

But can anyone tell me, does fog impede the dispersal of smoke?

If fog is present, this usually means that there is calm or fairly calm body of moist cold air at the surface with a layer of warmer air above. This is called an inversion. Cold air is denser than warm air so the same mechanism would keep the smoke within the confines of the inversion.

mickuhaha

senordingdong wrote: »

That's a fair point.

But can anyone tell me, does fog impede the dispersal of smoke?

No but it has been shown to prevent it from lowering to the ground. The dangerous gases tend to not lower and mix with the fog.

Paddycaddy

Great photo

beachhead

senordingdong wrote: »

This is part of the problem, the instruments have too large of an area to cover.
I expect the station in bray is not on the main street.

Only businesses on the main street.The traffic light system causes a build up of traffic.The bigger problem is smoking fuel used in the town with abandon.

2lazytogetup

the weather might aggravate the pollution in Bray, but we cant blame the weather. That sounds like US Republican party type of talk.

If there are two climate zones, a cold air and a warm air above bray in that photo, its probable that the pollution gets stuck in the bottom air mass and thus affects us worse.

This reminds me of Paris. in the middle of summer, the pollution cant escape due to air masses and it gets very bad.

I hear Enniscorthy is the same, the polluted air cant escape. It would be cynical to say, well the problem is the air flow, not the pollution.

magicbastarder

i remember 'seeing' a fireworks display in enniskerry. all the smoke from the fireworks hung about at the bottom of the village and obscured the fireworks after a few minutes.

BattleCorp

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are there many factories in downtown Bray?

Probably smoke from junkies cooking up.

skooterblue2

BattleCorp wrote: »

Probably smoke from junkies cooking up.

"In a world you could have become anything....... you decided to become a junkie."