Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

bilston

So 11 new caps under Farrell so far...

Caelan Doris
Ronan Kelleher
Hugo Keenan
Max Deegan
Eric O'Sullivan
Billy Burns
Jamison Gibson Park
Will Connors
Ed Byrne
James Lowe
Shane Daly

How many are keepers, or put another way, how many will go on and win 50+ caps...

Doris will go on to become one of the main components for the next decade so, injury allowing will absolutely get 50 caps, the question with him is whether he can reach the ton. Ronan Kelleher looks likely to be the long term hooker, so again should get 50+ caps...will any of the rest? Hugo Keenan has done really well, maybe a bit of the Girvan Dempsey about him, really solid and dependable, and sometimes you need that, especially if you have someone like Stockdale in the back three who can do things going forward that the rest can't, but obviously brings a lot of jeopardy with his game as well. Still not sure Keenan will get 50 caps, but you never know.

In other words it's great that 11 new players have been capped, but are they the correct 11 players? And if they aren't, who is?

UAEguy2020

beggars_bush wrote: »

We still don't have a decent full back who can read a game and defend.
What are the actual game tactics?
Kick to touch for field posession? Our lineout isn't capable of providing any quality ball
Box kick and challenge in air or on ground?
Grubbers through? Saw one yesterday for Keenan.
Move ball away from contact in first phase? Non existent

Someone enlighten me?

Examples of not being able to read the game? Also how is it Jacobs fault that Herring let VDM rum straight through and score? I’m not sure he’s the answer either but it seems as if a narrative has been created and unless something amazing happens it’s never deviated regardless of the circumstances.

Our line out is capable of of providing ball if they actually did their job right, we aren’t asking them to pull a golden brick from their ass we are asking them to do something they should have learnt from the age of 15...

Buer

bilston wrote: »

So 11 new caps under Farrell so far...

Caelan Doris - Future captain and mainstay
Ronan Kelleher - 50 cap international but possibly in the same way Seán Cronin is
Hugo Keenan - Likely to pick up 30-40 caps. Very solid and can do a job but will need guys around him who can add a spark
Max Deegan - Less than 20 caps.
Eric O'Sullivan - 50 cap international.
Billy Burns - Less than 20 caps.
Jamison Gibson Park - 20-30 caps.
Will Connors - If he stays fit, will be a 50 cap international but depends on form of others and is a tactical selection, horses for courses etc. Might only get 30
Ed Byrne - 20 to 30 caps mostly from bench and will be around the squad due to lack of established options.
James Lowe - 30 caps. Not young and will be in the set up for a few years similar to Payne.
Shane Daly - Could be up to 50 caps but needs the opportunity at Munster first of all. Unlucky to be injured this period as the chance might have passed him by. Could well find himself on the bench for Munster for Europe and thus not involved in the 6N at all.

How many are keepers, or put another way, how many will go on and win 50+ caps...

My guesswork above. It's really hard to know as the future of these guys is also dependent on alternative options. There are a couple of good looseheads coming through Leinster and Munster who could force Ed Byrne out of the set up entirely in 2 years. EOS looks like he should be thereabouts for a long time.

The back three is an area where you need to grab your chance and, if you do, you could well be there for a long time. I feel Keenan might be in that bracket now. He looks extremely comfortable and consistent. Doesn't do anything flash but he's very solid and a reliable player every week.

The back row is a complete guess at this point. Injuries are one of our most influential selection arguments in that area. I don't see Deegan as ever being a long term test player though even before his injury. He's clever and skillful but he just doesn't have that dog that Doris or Coombes appear to have.

sydthebeat

I'm fairly sure Ryan baird would have been capped this winter were it not for injury, and he could be a possible 50 cap potential as well. James Ryan was absolutely flogged in the last 8 weeks.

theVersatile

I feel bad for Stockdale. He seems to be quickly filling that POM role of "criticised no matter how well he plays and everything is his fault" and frankly he doesn't deserve it.

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

So 11 new caps under Farrell so far...

Caelan Doris
Ronan Kelleher
Hugo Keenan
Max Deegan
Eric O'Sullivan
Billy Burns
Jamison Gibson Park
Will Connors
Ed Byrne
James Lowe
Shane Daly

How many are keepers, or put another way, how many will go on and win 50+ caps...

Doris will go on to become one of the main components for the next decade so, injury allowing will absolutely get 50 caps, the question with him is whether he can reach the ton. Ronan Kelleher looks likely to be the long term hooker, so again should get 50+ caps...will any of the rest? Hugo Keenan has done really well, maybe a bit of the Girvan Dempsey about him, really solid and dependable, and sometimes you need that, especially if you have someone like Stockdale in the back three who can do things going forward that the rest can't, but obviously brings a lot of jeopardy with his game as well. Still not sure Keenan will get 50 caps, but you never know.

In other words it's great that 11 new players have been capped, but are they the correct 11 players? And if they aren't, who is?

Steady on there bilston. Talking about guys getting 50 caps. Is that not a major issue we have. some new players emerge or are not even at international level yet and theres immediate calls that they'll have millions of caps...
There has been several issues with Kelleher and lineout.

Dog Botherer

Paul Boyle knocking on the door for Ireland selection:

bilston

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Steady on there bilston. Talking about guys getting 50 caps. Is that not a major issue we have. some new players emerge or are not even at international level yet and theres immediate calls that they'll have millions of caps...
There has been several issues with Kelleher and lineout.

Just trying to start a debate!

Richie_Rich89

Best uncapped team at the moment?

1. Peter Dooley
2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. Tom O'Toole
4. Ryan Baird
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Scott Penny
8. Gavin Coombes
9. Caolin Blade
10. Harry Byrne
11. Robert Lyttle
12. Dan Goggin
13. Thomas Farrell
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Jimmy O'Brien

16. John Andrew
17. Jeremy Loughman
18. Dominic Robertson-McCoy
19. Fineen Wycherley
20. Paul Boyle
21. Craig Casey
22. Ciarán Frawley
23. James Hume

Some would say Lowry at 15, but I like the look of JOB meself. I suppose Frawley at 12 would be another option.

bilston

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Best uncapped team at the moment?

1. Peter Dooley
2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. Tom O'Toole
4. Ryan Baird
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Scott Penny
8. Gavin Coombes
9. Caolin Blade
10. Harry Byrne
11. Robert Lyttle
12. Dan Goggin
13. Thomas Farrell
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Jimmy O'Brien

16. John Andrew
17. Jeremy Loughman
18. Dominic Robertson-McCoy
19. Fineen Wycherley
20. Paul Boyle
21. Craig Casey
22. Ciarán Frawley
23. James Hume

Some would say Lowry at 15, but I like the look of JOB meself. I suppose Frawley at 12 would be another option.

Needs more Stewart Moore and Michael Lowry IMO.

It will be interesting to see how many of those guys play in Europe. Some of them may not even make their provincial 23s which really rules them out of contention for Ireland, certainly in the short term.

Richie_Rich89

bilston wrote: »

Needs more Stewart Moore and Michael Lowry IMO.

I do like the look of this Moore guy. I've seen comments that his defence needs a bit of work. I've only really seen highlights of Ulster games so far this season.

Does he get the 23 jersey or what in Europe? Maybe McCloskey and Hume are ahead for now?

bilston

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I do like the look of this Moore guy. I've seen comments that his defence needs a bit of work. I've only really seen highlights of Ulster games so far this season.

Does he get the 23 jersey or what in Europe? Maybe McCloskey and Hume are ahead for now?

Yeah, he has been getting to grips with it a bit...for example he is getting better...he was very good defensively against Edinburgh last week, but it's still an area he needs to work on. I think you're right it will be McCloskey and Hume, but with Lowry likely to be 15, Ulster may go with two outside backs on the bench.so Moore may we be in the squad.

Paul Weller

I think if we're talking uncapped, we have to put Ben Healy in the mix, could outstrip all and sundry inside 2 years if he continues his upward trajectory

bilston

Paul Weller wrote: »

I think if we're talking uncapped, we have to put Ben Healy in the mix, could outstrip all and sundry inside 2 years if he continues his upward trajectory

Healy has one big advantage of Harry Byrne...Healy will be playing European rugby over the next few weeks. H.Byrne might have to bide his time.

Dog Botherer

Boyle has to start at 8 in an uncapped 23. Coombes has had a few good games but Boyle has been class for a few years now.

UAEguy2020

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Boyle has to start at 8 in an uncapped 23. Coombes has had a few good games but Boyle has been class for a few years now.

Coombes @6 Penny @7 Boyle @8

theVersatile

Tom Farrell is capped I thought? (edit:called up but never capped by the looks of it) On the basis that he was training with the squad I'd have Fineen over Thornbury, otherwise not much to argue with.

Deegan? (never mind, capped)

Dubinusa

After viewing yesterday's match, I wonder how Ireland could be so good in parts and yet look clueless in others.
Farrell got a good win. Just what the team needed. A lot to question and discuss.
17 missed tackles in the 1st 35 minutes.
Team looking lethargic for a while during that half.
JGP only getting 3 or 4 minutes. I thought that was ridiculous.
Porter on for 74 minutes!
Overall though they showed a lot of fire and energy when they clicked.
Of the new caps, Doris looks fantastic. A lot better than I 'd hoped.
Keenan very good throughout. He will be thereabouts in the future. Complete all rounder.
Kelleher has a ways to go. I don't think he's good enough yet.
I think Connors will be on the outside looking in. He's great defensively, but I think he's got a lot of work to do on his offensive game.
EOS looked good in his cameo. I think he can make a move over the next 8 weeks.
I Don't know if they rate JGP. I reckon Cooney will regain his place. I just think he's better. Do they rate Marmion?
I have noticed that they have reduced the carries for Ryan and Henderson. The main ball carriers now appear to be Stander and Doris, with Healy, Porter getting a lot of carries too. I wonder if thats planned? Usually Stander and Ryan were the main carrying threat. They seem to have made Porter more of carrying option.
Disappointed for Henderson, he was playing well. Hopefully, he's back soon.
I think Stockdale should be moved back on the wing. I don't think he's going to lock down the 15 shirt.
Anyway, lots of decisions to be made for the 6nations.
I think this will be Healy's last hurrah. A healthy Kilcoyne may push him to the bench. He just looks slow and old. Maybe I'm wrong.

Wegians89

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Boyle has to start at 8 in an uncapped 23. Coombes has had a few good games but Boyle has been class for a few years now.

Think boyle has to be the next back row to be capped. Over the last few years he’s shown he’s equally able to preform in all three back row positions. He could be the ideal #20, bringing a dynamic impact from the bench.

Would love to see stander 6, leavy 7 Doris 8 and Boyle 20 in the six nations.

Former Former Former

Dubinusa wrote: »

I Don't know if they rate JGP. I reckon Cooney will regain his place. I just think he's better. Do they rate Marmion?

Scrum-half is a weird one but Marmion was probably the single biggest loser of the Autumn series. Having missed the World Cup and then the Six Nations, he'd have been hoping for a lot more than 20 minutes against Georgia but JGP looks to have left him for dust. I don't think they'll be in a rush to bring Cooney back either, his place in the setup was always pretty tenuous.

Really need someone new to come through, whether that's Casey or someone else.

aloooof

Former Former Former wrote: »

Scrum-half is a weird one but Marmion was probably the single biggest loser of the Autumn series. Having missed the World Cup and then the Six Nations, he'd have been hoping for a lot more than 20 minutes against Georgia but JGP looks to have left him for dust. I don't think they'll be in a rush to bring Cooney back either, his place in the setup was always pretty tenuous.

Really need someone new to come through, whether that's Casey or someone else.

Thinking of the winners and losers, roughly off the top of my head:

Winners:
Doris: Consistently excellent and expect him to be a mainstay for the long haul.

Earls: A selection for the here and now given his age profile, but continues to deliver, on both sides of the ball.

POM: Some excellent displays. Now potentially a live option at 7 also which is another avenue into the team for him.

Porter: Serious workload asked of him and stood up to the task.

Keenan: Consistently solid under the high ball and in the tackle. (The odd poor kick being the only blot on his copybook)

Henshaw: If we ever have all midfielders fit, I'd wager he and Ringrose are 1st choice. Not a playmaking 12, but definitely brings more variation than Aki.

Mixed Bag
Stockdale: Some excellent moments in attack, some costly errors in defence.

Burns: Has likely moved ahead of R.Byrne as back-up 10 (while Carbery remains injured) but might be disappointed with his lack of gametime (albeit, down to injury also).

JGP: Was lively at times, injecting some pace into things, but the odd questionable decision making.

Lowe: Great debut vs Wales, not so great performance vs England.

Roux: Got the plaudits for his work in the scrum v Wales and even got a try for his days work, but more mixed recently.

Kelleher: Good in the loose, but some lineout issues (which seem to persist throughout the team regardless of personnel, so can't pin that entirely on Kelleher).

Losers:
Conway: Picked up an injury I believe, but seems to have fallen out of favour after being amongst our best players in the 6N pre-Lockdown 1.

VdF: Connors leapfrogging him and POM now an option at 7 mean he has a bit of work to do to get back into the team. Interesting to see who Leinster go with in Europe.

Ross Byrne: You have to feel for him (both your test starts coming in Twickenham is really drawing the short straw) but he doesn't seem to play flat enough for this level.

Marmion & Cooney: Don't seem to be in favour for whatever reason.

Healy: Saw some pretty ineffective carrying from him, you'd wonder is age beginning to catch up with him.

thomond2006

I'd add Dillane to the list of losers too. He couldn't get a look in.

Interested Observer

aloooof wrote: »

Thinking of the winners and losers, roughly off the top of my head:

snip

Think I'd agree with most/all of that. If I'd been picking the squad I'd have 100% left out POM but he'd some of his best performances in a long time to be fair. Little harsh on Roux I'd say, he's come out of this with more credit than he went in comfortably imo.

Solutionking

Can anyone figure out why Ireland won't give Marty Moore a chance? the guys was great before he went to Wasps and has been quality for Ulster since he came back. Not the most mobile but incredible in the scrum which is a huge problem area

Solutionking

I woul question POM as a winner. He again played well against the poor teams but once it came up against England was found wanting. I love POM but at this stage he is just not the answer against the top teams.

thomond2006

Most wanted POM out of the side. He got selected and his form demanded he remain in the side. He's definitely a winner.

aloooof

Solutionking wrote: »

I woul question POM as a winner. He again played well against the poor teams but once it came up against England was found wanting. I love POM but at this stage he is just not the answer against the top teams.

Was he not one of our better players against England?

irishbucsfan

Solutionking wrote: »

I woul question POM as a winner. He again played well against the poor teams but once it came up against England was found wanting. I love POM but at this stage he is just not the answer against the top teams.

Man of the Match against New Zealand in 2018

AbusesToilets

thomond2006 wrote: »

Most wanted POM out of the side. He got selected and his form demanded he remain in the side. He's definitely a winner.

Generous to say his form demanded selection. I'd say he was included in a winning set up and looked good, as opposed to being one of the drivers of said performances.

Solutionking

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Man of the Match against New Zealand in 2018

If I can a euro for everytime :P