Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

aloooof

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I meant take the debutants that got gametime against Georgia, Italy and because of injury and tell me how many debutants are left.

I literally did just that.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Your question is irrelevant, because this isn’t 2018.

If you're comparing teams between 2018 and now, it absolutely is relevant, whether you like it or not.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

A relevant question now is which team Ireland 2021 or France 2021 is in more need of an overhaul?

I'd agree with this that Ireland likely are. In, say, 3-4 years time, I'd anticipate seeing a higher number of changes to the Irish team than the French team, say. There's a reason for that. And it's the exact corollary to the point you're deeming irrelevant above.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The simple fact there is that we are still fielding out 2018 GS winning team in 2021 abs it doesn’t look like changing enough to be competitive anytime soon.

Our trajectory is downward, anyone pretending otherwise isn’t looking at reality.

Give us your 23, then.

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

The system needs to be looked at. No major overhaul is needed but I'd argue that forwards and backs can be coached, but 10s need to play and gain experience. So the current setup will produce players in some positions, but leave us lacking in others.

Healy, Hawkshaw, Byrne etc, would all have at least a season at ProD2 level at their age, were they French. Regular game time at a good level, with decent learning opportunities at low enough pressure that mistakes won't be the end of them. Also crucial that they start learning the psychological and interpersonal nuances of training each week as a team's starting 10, and not an understudy.

But at present we lack that middle ground between the win-at-all cost context of the top provincial competitions, and the "meh" of the competitions at the next step down.

good point

the development path requirements for a 10 are very different and posters ignoring that and facilely saying "But look Leinster have developed x back-row players to international level in the last x years" are wilfully ignoring that.

lawrencesummers

aloooof wrote: »

I literally did just that.



If you're comparing teams between 2018 and now, it absolutely is relevant, whether you like it or not.



I'd agree with this that Ireland likely are. In, say, 3-4 years time, I'd anticipate seeing a higher number of changes to the Irish team than the French team, say. There's a reason for that. And it's the exact corollary to the point you're deeming irrelevant above.



Give us your 23, then.

I’m not comparing teams.

I’m saying there is a direct correlation between the lack of changes in our team and our downward trajectory which is the direct opposite of the massive changes in the French team and their increased competitiveness.

Does it not say a massive amount that the team which took to the field against France in 2018 is the same as the one that would be starting this week had it not been for injury.

It’s obvious to the dogs on the street that change is needed.

Picking my 23 is pointless, because it’s going to be weaker than the 23 that has been selected because we are picking a team for Sunday, not for the future unfortunately.

If we were to rebuild then players like Cian Healy, CJ, VDF, Sexton, Murray, Earls would be on the bench or gone from the 23 in favour of players like Eric O sullivan, Coombes, Will Conners, Shane Daly, Casey, The Byrnes.

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I’m not comparing teams.

I’m saying there is a direct correlation between the lack of changes in our team and our downward trajectory which is the direct opposite of the massive changes in the French team and their increased competitiveness.

Does it not say a massive amount that the team which took to the field against France in 2018 is the same as the one that would be starting this week had it not been for injury.

It’s obvious to the dogs on the street that change is needed.

Picking my 23 is pointless, because it’s going to be weaker than the 23 that has been selected because we are picking a team for Sunday, not for the future unfortunately.

If we were to rebuild then players like Cian Healy, CJ, VDF, Sexton, Murray, Earls would be on the bench or gone from the 23 in favour of players like Eric O sullivan, Coombes, Will Conners, Shane Daly, Casey, The Byrnes.

A bit harsh on Stander and VDF. They're only 30 and 27 respectively and both played very well last week. Apart from that I more or less agree.

Lost Ormond

Neil3030 wrote: »

The system needs to be looked at. No major overhaul is needed but I'd argue that forwards and backs can be coached, but 10s need to play and gain experience. So the current setup will produce players in some positions, but leave us lacking in others.

Healy, Hawkshaw, Byrne etc, would all have at least a season at ProD2 level at their age, were they French. Regular game time at a good level, with decent learning opportunities at low enough pressure that mistakes won't be the end of them. Also crucial that they start learning the psychological and interpersonal nuances of training each week as a team's starting 10, and not an understudy.

But at present we lack that middle ground between the win-at-all cost context of the top provincial competitions, and the "meh" of the competitions at the next step down.

What would you change about the system?
Would you think AIL and developing that more and supporting that more in conjunction with a better Provincial A set up so you have young players involved with teams which are mix of top level/best amatuers alongside some pro players as well as provincial A games with nearly all pros and playing within same system as they will when they step up to P14.

Dubinusa wrote: »

Rugby is not a big sport in Italy. They only have the 2 poor sides. I don't see them becoming a good side anytime soon.
Farrell has done quite well bringing up new players. I don't think that's disputable. Some of them could be in the squad for some time. I think though, that the autumn series was a pivotal opportunity to flip the script. I would have liked to see the call ups feature more and perhaps more call ups. I.E start Burns for all the matches? Then we'd have a better idea of where he is. Also JGP could have started all the matches. In meaningless tournaments it would be ideal to give the up and coming players the brunt of the minutes.
Playing Healy, Murray and Sexton taught us nothing really. Same with POM. I think the opportunity was missed and now we are in a situation where the halves are fairly green. I think they'll be fine though. I think they are good players and are certainly worth a look. But anyway, I can't wait for the match!!

Italy will improve in time. Different era but took long time for France to get to terms with playing with the more established nations. Same with Argentina. What do you see as a good side? The level they need to reach to be a good side?

bayern wrote: »

Isn't the AIL not a perfect avenue for young 10's to develop?

Or are people just writing that off going forward?

It is but not enough support it enough. Just look at how many here dont watch/support it.

aloooof

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I’m not comparing teams.

I'm sorry, but saying we had 11 from our 2018 cohort but France had only 2 absolutely is comparing teams. My point being that the starting point is absolutely relevant to that.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I’m saying there is a direct correlation between the lack of changes in our team and our downward trajectory which is the direct opposite of the massive changes in the French team and their increased competitiveness.

France have increased their competitiveness from a low base. Our competitiveness has declined from a high base. Again, this is relevant to their overhaul of their team.

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Does it not say a massive amount that the team which took to the field against France in 2018 is the same as the one that would be starting this week had it not been for injury.

It’s obvious to the dogs on the street that change is needed.

Picking my 23 is pointless, because it’s going to be weaker than the 23 that has been selected because we are picking a team for Sunday, not for the future unfortunately.

If we were to rebuild then players like Cian Healy, CJ, VDF, Sexton, Murray, Earls would be on the bench or gone from the 23 in favour of players like Eric O sullivan, Coombes, Will Conners, Shane Daly, Casey, The Byrnes.

Of those you've listed, CJ is 30 and VDF is 27. I really don't see the issue with them. I think this will be Earls' last 6 Nations (and he's lucky to retain his shirt this weekend, likely for his superior defence).

That leaves just Murray and Sexton, where I can see your point that we could be seeing more evolution. But I actually think Farrell has been reasonably good in that regard, even if it's not happening at the pace you would like.

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

A bit harsh on Stander and VDF. They're only 30 and 27 respectively and both played very well last week. Apart from that I more or less agree.

They had good games alright, if we were to honestly look at building then Let them on the bench. Give some youth a chance to start. They are a fine safety net to make a big impact.

Neil3030

Lost Ormond wrote: »

What would you change about the system?
Would you think AIL and developing that more and supporting that more in conjunction with a better Provincial A set up so you have young players involved with teams which are mix of top level/best amatuers alongside some pro players as well as provincial A games with nearly all pros and playing within same system as they will when they step up to P14.

Yeah we need to be quite inventive, given our small population and the relative popularity of rugby. But whatever we do, I think once a young 10 is out of the Irish school's system, and maybe a year or so into a provincial academy programme, he's already too good to be playing with amateurs.

lawrencesummers

aloooof wrote: »

I'm sorry, but saying we had 11 from our 2018 cohort but France had only 2 absolutely is comparing teams. My point being that the starting point is absolutely relevant to that.



France have increased their competitiveness from a low base. Our competitiveness has declined from a high base. Again, this is relevant to their overhaul of their team.



Of those you've listed, CJ is 30 and VDF is 27. I really don't see the issue with them. I think this will be Earls' last 6 Nations (and he's lucky to retain his shirt this weekend, likely for his superior defence).

That leaves just Murray and Sexton, where I can see your point that we could be seeing more evolution. But I actually think Farrell has been reasonably good in that regard, even if it's not happening at the pace you would like.

The issue with stander is that he shouldn’t be starting in the BR by the time the next World Cup comes around.


I’m surprised people are not more taken aback by the complete lack of change in our side in 3 years.

3 years where we have only been getting consistently worse.


Starting team Vs Wales 2021. - Starting team vs France 2018

15 Hugo Keenan —— Kearney
14 Keith Earls —— Same
13 Garry Ringrose —— Aki
12 Robbie Henshaw —— Same
11 James Lowe —— Stockdale
10 Johnny Sexton —— Same
9 Conor Murray —— Same
1 Cian Healy. —— Same
2 Rob Herring —— Best
3 Andrew Porter. —— Furlong
4 Tadhg Beirne —— Hendo
5 James Ryan. —— Same
6 Peter O'Mahony. —— Same
7 Josh van der Flier. —— Same
8 CJ Stander —— Same




Of those changes Furlong and Stockdale are because of Injury and probably would be starting.
Kearney and Best is retirement.
Aki is injured and out I think
So Beirne is the only player to have made his way into that team.



That’s telling of something majorly wrong.

bilston

Its ironic. This debate has gone on for years. It's not that long ago that many of the players people want retired were the new kids on the block, I remember a time when people were crying out for Marcus Horan to replace Reggie Corrigan, Donacha O'Callaghan to replace Mal O'Kelly and Tommy Bowe to replace Shane Horgan. Eventually the new kids get their go and people love them for about a year, and then they start to grow tired of them and move on to someone else.

Not sure what the point if my post is...but before you know it Harry Byrne and Craig Casey will be the old codgers and some bright new shiny toy, who is currently 9 and torturing his parents during homeschooling will be the new Messiah...

Times waits for no one.

Of course bringing in young players has never won us a World Cup Quarter Final.

bilston

lawrencesummers wrote: »

The issue with stander is that he shouldn’t be starting in the BR by the time the next World Cup comes around.


I’m surprised people are not more taken aback by the complete lack of change in our side in 3 years.

3 years where we have only been getting consistently worse.


Starting team Vs Wales 2021. - Starting team vs France 2018

15 Hugo Keenan —— Same
14 Keith Earls —— Same
13 Garry Ringrose —— Aki
12 Robbie Henshaw —— Same
11 James Lowe —— Stockdale
10 Johnny Sexton —— Same
9 Conor Murray —— Same
1 Cian Healy. —— Same
2 Rob Herring —— Best
3 Andrew Porter. —— Furlong
4 Tadhg Beirne —— Hendo
5 James Ryan. —— Same
6 Peter O'Mahony. —— Same
7 Josh van der Flier. —— Same
8 CJ Stander —— Same

Pretty sure Keenan didn't play 15 in 2018.


We also won a GS in 2018, only natural that you might stick with those players.

Also with the exception of Aki v Ringrose...Id argue that all the players who didn't start against Wales in 2021 are better than the players who did start...obviously Best v Herring is an invalid argument

Must love hardship

Just looking at the debutants that Farrell has given in 2020. As a lot of people say he has promoted 11 players and given them caps since he has taken over but does thst tell the full story??

Apologies now if i have a few figures wrong. I don't use a stats website. ( feel free to recommend one)

5 of the 11 caps are the wrong side of 25 so its not like he is promoting 11 young players. Of these 5 I would deem 3 as project players as they didn't come through the system.

Eric o sullivan is 25.
Billy burns is 26
Ed byrne is 26
Park is 28
Lowe are 28.

Two of those caps in the front row were directly as a result of a spate of injuries and neither were selected in the 6 nations squad a originally.

Of the 6 younger caps. Half of them have less than 20 mins and no start.
Max deegan has 20 and not in the 6 nations squad. Inj.
Shane daly has 18 and only made 1 match day squad.
Eric o sullivan has 15 mins and not in the 6 nations squad.

Hugo keenan has the most minutes with 7 games and about 520 minutes. Could be described as the only nailed on starter at the moment.. (Doris inj)
but on the 3 occasions that stockdale was fit to start keenan was shifted to the wing to accommodate him.

Doris inj. Has 7 games also only 390 minutes. He had to wait to get consistent game time in his preferred position of 8.
Will connors has 6 games now but mostly from the bench with only 250 mins. Half of keenans games time.
Kelleher is another like connors who has mainly seen time off the bench with about 180 minutes.

Leading into this week byrne and burns have less than 100 mins game time.

The point I'm trying to make is while he has given 11 caps ( 12 if casey gets on) only 1 of these caps is to a player under 25 who starts this week.. and we have the oldest squad in the competition.

I'm a little uninspired by half the caps and he seems to fall back on the same players from the last 5 years.

Especially in the autumn Cup we missed out on getting minutes into casey, o toole, h byrne, Coombes, whisherly etc

Since the world cup how man debutants have the other teams given?

aloooof

bilston wrote: »

We also won a GS in 2018, only natural that you might stick with those players.

My point exactly for why we were more likely to stick with players than France, who had a decade of under-achievement.

Neil3030

bilston wrote: »

Its ironic. This debate has gone on for years. It's not that long ago that many of the players people want retired were the new kids on the block, I remember a time when people were crying out for Marcus Horan to replace Reggie Corrigan, Donacha O'Callaghan to replace Mal O'Kelly and Tommy Bowe to replace Shane Horgan. Eventually the new kids get their go and people love them for about a year, and then they start to grow tired of them and move on to someone else.

Not sure what the point if my post is...but before you know it Harry Byrne and Craig Casey will be the old codgers and some bright new shiny toy, who is currently 9 and torturing his parents during homeschooling will be the new Messiah...

Times waits for no one.

Of course bringing in young players has never won us a World Cup Quarter Final.

I think the problem is that Byrne and Casey are not as close to bright and shiney as they would be in a different context. It's an opportunity cost problem that we need to fix. Until the age of ~18 the school's system is close to a world-class environment for players to learn. Once players break into the first team at their province (~22-23) they are again in a world class environment. It's the interim 3-4 years that we need to closely look at.

lawrencesummers

bilston wrote: »

Pretty sure Keenan didn't play 15 in 2018.


We also won a GS in 2018, only natural that you might stick with those players.

Also with the exception of Aki v Ringrose...Id argue that all the players who didn't start against Wales in 2021 are better than the players who did start...obviously Best v Herring is an invalid argument

I was editing because the browser loses text it I switch betweeen browsers. It’s Accurate now.

When you have a winning team sure you stick with it.

But it’s 2021 now and we are sticking with the team of 2019 and 2020 as well and they don’t win F all.

the baby bull elephant

Must love hardship wrote: »

Eric o sullivan is 25.
Billy burns is 26
Ed byrne is 26
Park is 28
Lowe are 28.

Just a heads up, it's Gibson-Park not Park. It's a double barrel surname.

Podge_irl

So we've moved on from "Farrell isn't capping new players" to "Farrell isn't capping the new players I want"?

lawrencesummers

Podge_irl wrote: »

So we've moved on from "Farrell isn't capping new players" to "Farrell isn't capping the new players I want"?

Clearly he isnt doing either in any meaningful game.

lawrencesummers

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Just a heads up, it's Gibson-Park not Park. It's a double barrel surname.

Well-done.

Must love hardship

Podge_irl wrote: »

So we've moved on from "Farrell isn't capping new players" to "Farrell isn't capping the new players I want"?

If that's how you read it...

I thought I put across a good point that he isn't capping many young players under 25 and integrating them into regular starting position in the team.

Of his 11 new caps. 5 are over 25. Only 1 under 25 player starts this weekend.

3 of his caps have less than 20 minutes.

We had a mickey mouse tournament in the autumn that counted for nothing and he failed to give players exposure. He could have left players over 30 with their clubs or limit players to 3 games during the window.


France last year named 19 uncapped players in their squad after going out of the world cup at the same stage as us..

I just think we could be a bit more adventurous with our squads and we will pay the price for his short sightedness on sunday

Lost Ormond

Neil3030 wrote: »

Yeah we need to be quite inventive, given our small population and the relative popularity of rugby. But whatever we do, I think once a young 10 is out of the Irish school's system, and maybe a year or so into a provincial academy programme, he's already too good to be playing with amateurs.

Every week yes but to dismiss the quality of AIL division 1 especially 1A is bit much. That level is seriously high quality and should be utilised more. More here and fans of rugby in general need to support the AIL and clubs.
I dont see how a young 10 is out of school and a year or two into their academy they are too good to play AIL. AIL 1A and 1B has some very good players many of whom are more than good enough to play pro rugby even if just talking about a 2nd division level ie championship etc

Neil3030

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Every week yes but to dismiss the quality of AIL division 1 especially 1A is bit much. That level is seriously high quality and should be utilised more. More here and fans of rugby in general need to support the AIL and clubs.
I dont see how a young 10 is out of school and a year or two into their academy they are too good to play AIL. AIL 1A and 1B has some very good players many of whom are more than good enough to play pro rugby even if just talking about a 2nd division level ie championship etc

Well that's great news if it's true.

How would an AIL team get on in ProD2?

Also, perhaps I should rephrase:

"Once a young 10 is out of the Irish school's system, and maybe a year or so into a provincial academy programme, his scope to develop is below optimal if he's playing with amateurs"

theVersatile

Did we really just say the Pro14 isn't good enough a league for developing players and then point out how young French 10s get development in the ProD2!?!?

Teferi

Must love hardship wrote: »

5 of the 11 caps are the wrong side of 25 so its not like he is promoting 11 young players.

Jaysus. Genuine meme potential here. Over 25 isn't some death sentence. Someone aged 25,26,27 has a decent chance of 2 world cup cycles in them. And even if they only have one cycle in them, so what? As long as they're adding to the team, it doesn't really matter what aged they are.

Rugby4568

An Irish team I’d like to see next year or sometime in the future.

15. Chris Cosgrave
14. Aaron Sexton
13. Liam Turner (Dublin University/Leinster)
12. David Hawkshaw (Clontarf/Leinster) (capt)
11. Jonathan Wren (Cork Constitution/Munster)
10. Harry Byrne (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
9. Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster)
1. Josh Wycherley (Young Munster/Munster)
2. Dylan Tierney-Martin (Corinthians/Connacht) *
3. Thomas Clarkson (Dublin University/Leinster)
4. Thomas Ahern (Shannon/ Munster)
5. Ryan Baird (Dublin University/ Leinster)
6. Alex Soroka (Clontarf/ Leinster)
7. Scott Penny (UCD/Leinster)
8. Caelan Doris

All these players should be getting game time in the European Champions Cup sooner rather than later if we’re serious about building a good young team. Thankfully some of those players are getting game time in the European Cup such as Josh Wycherley and a few others but would like to see all these players get game time in the European Champions Cup sooner than later for then they can be ready to play international rugby as soon as possible.

Tommybojangles

It's a part of a much bigger discussion but I wonder sometimes if the early success of the provinces in the 00s led to the clubs getting cut adrift too much. Obviously that period and the ongoing success of the provinces is the basis for everything in Irish rugby at the moment and that couldn't be seen as a bad thing, but everyone was so swept up in Munster, Leinster, and obviously Munster v. Leinster, that club rugby fell out of view for the general public. The ideal situation in Ireland would have a really strong 1A, with 6 -8 teams where academy players play regularly at a standard that's not too much of a jump to league games for the provinces, which would be viable if crowds could be attracted. But that's probably a dreamworld!

Also just read the "wrong side of 25" comment and nearly had a heart attack as a 28 year old ���� When did we change it from 30

Lost Ormond

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well that's great news if it's true.

How would an AIL team get on in ProD2?

Also, perhaps I should rephrase:

"Once a young 10 is out of the Irish school's system, and maybe a year or so into a provincial academy programme, his scope to develop is below optimal if he's playing with amateurs"

A full time AIL side in prod2. Who knows. But just look at how some of the provincial A sides full of club players did against championship sides in British and Iirsh Cuo.
I dont see how a 10s scope to develop is below optimal playing with amateurs at the age of 20/21 going up against AIL players with 7/8 years or more experience playing top level club rugby.

Rugby4568 wrote: »

An Irish team I’d like to see next year or sometime in the future.

15. Chris Cosgrave
14. Aaron Sexton
13. Liam Turner (Dublin University/Leinster)
12. David Hawkshaw (Clontarf/Leinster) (capt)
11. Jonathan Wren (Cork Constitution/Munster)
10. Harry Byrne (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
9. Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster)
1. Josh Wycherley (Young Munster/Munster)
2. Dylan Tierney-Martin (Corinthians/Connacht) *
3. Thomas Clarkson (Dublin University/Leinster)
4. Thomas Ahern (Shannon/ Munster)
5. Ryan Baird (Dublin University/ Leinster)
6. Alex Soroka (Clontarf/ Leinster)
7. Scott Penny (UCD/Leinster)
8. Caelan Doris

All these players should be getting game time in the European Champions Cup sooner rather than later if we’re serious about building a good young team. Thankfully some of those players are getting game time in the European Cup such as Josh Wycherley and a few others but would like to see all these players get game time in the European Champions Cup sooner than later for then they can be ready to play international rugby as soon as possible.

There's many on that for wide range of reasons who wont and shouldnt be near an irish time in 2-3 years never mind 12 months. We do need to get more younger players come through. But look at most sides who do very well in world cups and they are not that full of young players with coaches having thrown out all experienced players.

lawrencesummers

Teferi wrote: »

Jaysus. Genuine meme potential here. Over 25 isn't some death sentence. Someone aged 25,26,27 has a decent chance of 2 world cup cycles in them. And even if they only have one cycle in them, so what? As long as they're adding to the team, it doesn't really matter what aged they are.

The problem with it is that it takes something close to 2 years to play 20 games if your lucky and selected for all of them, For a 25 year old who hasn’t a cap yet he can be 27/28 before he’s any way experienced. If he’s lucky.

dub_skav

Tommybojangles wrote: »

Also just read the "wrong side of 25" comment and nearly had a heart attack as a 28 year old ���� When did we change it from 30

It changed as soon as Lowe and Gibson-Park were capped by the looks of it

Neil3030

Lost Ormond wrote: »

A full time AIL side in prod2. Who knows. But just look at how some of the provincial A sides full of club players did against championship sides in British and Iirsh Cuo.

But spread that squad over a league of however many teams, and very quickly the overall environment stops being such a challenge for a fledgling out half.

Just to be clear, there's a difference between "the AIL has a good standard" and "the AIL is the optimal place for a young 10 to be developing, each week, between the ages of 18 and 22 with an eye toward become an international".

But as I said before, we're constrained by economics, population, popularity of the sport, etc. So I don't see an easy solution in this regard. Something like the B&I cup would be great if had more games. (Or at the very least hadn't died).