Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Paul Smeenus

Rugby4568 wrote: »

An Irish team I’d like to see next year or sometime in the future.

15. Chris Cosgrave
14. Aaron Sexton
13. Liam Turner (Dublin University/Leinster)
12. David Hawkshaw (Clontarf/Leinster) (capt)
11. Jonathan Wren (Cork Constitution/Munster)
10. Harry Byrne (Lansdowne/Leinster) *
9. Craig Casey (Shannon/Munster)
1. Josh Wycherley (Young Munster/Munster)
2. Dylan Tierney-Martin (Corinthians/Connacht) *
3. Thomas Clarkson (Dublin University/Leinster)
4. Thomas Ahern (Shannon/ Munster)
5. Ryan Baird (Dublin University/ Leinster)
6. Alex Soroka (Clontarf/ Leinster)
7. Scott Penny (UCD/Leinster)
8. Caelan Doris

All these players should be getting game time in the European Champions Cup sooner rather than later if we’re serious about building a good young team. Thankfully some of those players are getting game time in the European Cup such as Josh Wycherley and a few others but would like to see all these players get game time in the European Champions Cup sooner than later for then they can be ready to play international rugby as soon as possible.

Next year?!?!

Lost Ormond

Neil3030 wrote: »

But spread that squad over a league of however many teams, and very quickly the overall environment stops being such a challenge for a fledgling out half.

Just to be clear, there's a difference between "the AIL has a good standard" and "the AIL is the optimal place for a young 10 to be developing, each week, between the ages of 18 and 22 with an eye toward become an international".

But as I said before, we're constrained by economics, population, popularity of the sport, etc. So I don't see an easy solution in this regard. Something like the B&I cup would be great if had more games. (Or at the very least hadn't died).

The AIL has a place and cant be forgotten like it essentially has by a huge proportion of irish rugby fans. The AIL and the club game needs to be utilised far more.
There is no easy solution. And a B&I Cup limited to several weekends where there isnt AIL games so we dont have provinces pulling club players from club games like has happened on several occasions in recent season in sometime controversial times.

almostover

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

Just a heads up, it's Gibson-Park not Park. It's a double barrel surname.

Park Ji-sung even? A midfield dynamo.....

Must love hardship

dub_skav wrote: »

It changed as soon as Lowe and Gibson-Park were capped by the looks of it

Both players are 28 year old journeymen. Decent club players. Gibson_park not ever a starter for leinster last year in champions Cup.

Can you give me an example of a player being first capped at 28 and going on to win 50 international caps or being considered a world class player? Even making a lions test team?

normanbond

15 Leinster and only 4 Munster in match day squad for France game. Looks like Owen Farrell’s Dad in for another memorable day out.
Anything else on tv worth watching this weekend??

stephen_n

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I completely agree. In the autumn nations cup we had two good home games to try out Burns and Ross Byrne but still insisted on starting Sexton but then chuck Byrne in the fire v England at Twickenham... what did we have to gain by playing Sexton v Wales and Scotland? Nothing and now we are going to pay the price for not giving a young 10 game time.

Would it really have made any difference? Byrne, Burns and Carthy are not the answer. They are a stop gap at best. Giving them more gametime isn’t going to change that in anyway. The idea of putting out weakened sides against Tier 1 teams, for the sake of experience is pointless.

Neil3030

Must love hardship wrote: »

Both players are 28 year old journeymen. Decent club players. Gibson_park not ever a starter for leinster last year in champions Cup.

Can you give me an example of a player being first capped at 28 and going on to win 50 international caps or being considered a world class player? Even making a lions test team?

Bundee Aki was 27. May or may not hit the 50, but 30 caps and counting.

sydthebeat

Must love hardship wrote: »

Both players are 28 year old journeymen.?

You don't know what "journeyman" means

Former Former Former

Must love hardship wrote: »

Both players are 28 year old journeymen. Decent club players. Gibson_park not ever a starter for leinster last year in champions Cup.

Can you give me an example of a player being first capped at 28 and going on to win 50 international caps or being considered a world class player? Even making a lions test team?

Jared Payne made his test debut at 29 and went on a lions tour at 31 (pulled out injured before the tests).

KIB4Life

Must love hardship wrote: »

Both players are 28 year old journeymen. Decent club players. Gibson_park not ever a starter for leinster last year in champions Cup.

Can you give me an example of a player being first capped at 28 and going on to win 50 international caps or being considered a world class player? Even making a lions test team?

Mike Ross was 29 when he was 1st capped and won 61 caps. John Hayes was 26 and won over 100 caps.

Must love hardship

Teferi wrote: »

Jaysus. Genuine meme potential here. Over 25 isn't some death sentence. Someone aged 25,26,27 has a decent chance of 2 world cup cycles in them. And even if they only have one cycle in them, so what? As long as they're adding to the team, it doesn't really matter what aged they are.

2 were 28 3 years out from a world cup. So could be 30 31 depending on birthdays by the time first one rolls around. 34 34 by the second one...

Do they add to the team. I dont think jgp has the passing game for this level. Lowe has serious defensive issues which he would need to clear up before becoming long term option.

penybont exile

Way too much wailing & gnashing of teeth ..... IMO

For what it's worth I believe Ireland have a more than 50% chance of beating the French. They've looked better since the last WC but in reality what have they won. They were a debatable decision away from losing to Wales in Cardiff last year, lost in Edinburgh & London [MM Cup]. It would be a big milestone for them to win on Sunday.

Also ..... as is very traditional on here there is too much acquiescence to the supposed powers of England & France. They both have some fine players but they are always beatable as both Ireland & Wales have proven consistently ......

If you think Ireland has problems then look at us for solace by comparison. We are at the proverbial cross roads once again .... who cares it's just sport (that other people play) .... it's also a lot more fun when it's unpredictable. Common consensus is that Wales are 'terrible' yet I wouldn't back against us bursting Scotland's bubble.

I'm on a roll this year with my predictions so i'm going with 2 home wins & 1 away win ..... [the latter coming tomorrow]

Faugheen

Must love hardship wrote: »

Both players are 28 year old journeymen. Decent club players. Gibson_park not ever a starter for leinster last year in champions Cup.

Can you give me an example of a player being first capped at 28 and going on to win 50 international caps or being considered a world class player? Even making a lions test team?

Scott Fardy was first capped at 29 and two years later had a starring role with an Australia side that made the Rugby World Cup final.

Must love hardship

sydthebeat wrote: »

You don't know what "journeyman" means

journeyman

/ˈdʒəːnɪmən/

noun

1.

a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding.

"a solid journeyman professional"

Must love hardship

KIB4Life wrote: »

Mike Ross was 29 when he was 1st capped and won 61 caps. John Hayes was 26 and won over 100 caps.

Can't argue with that.. both world class at locking out a scrum. Forgot about them

Podge_irl

penybont exile wrote: »

Way too much wailing & gnashing of teeth ..... IMO

For what it's worth I believe Ireland have a more than 50% chance of beating the French. They've looked better since the last WC but in reality what have they won. They were a debatable decision away from losing to Wales in Cardiff last year, lost in Edinburgh & London [MM Cup]. It would be a big milestone for them to win on Sunday.

Also ..... as is very traditional on here there is too much acquiescence to the supposed powers of England & France. They both have some fine players but they are always beatable as both Ireland & Wales have proven consistently ......

If you think Ireland has problems then look at us for solace by comparison. We are at the proverbial cross roads once again .... who cares it's just sport (that other people play) .... it's also a lot more fun when it's unpredictable. Common consensus is that Wales are 'terrible' yet I wouldn't back against us bursting Scotland's bubble.

I'm on a roll this year with my predictions so i'm going with 2 home wins & 1 away win ..... [the latter coming tomorrow]

Jesus, can you imagine the consternation here had Ireland only just barely beaten a Welsh team down to 14 men for 65 minutes!?

sydthebeat

Sonny bill Williams was 26 making his debut and went on to win 58 caps for the notoriously cut throat kiwis

penybont exile

..... Hadleigh Parkes was a 30 year old Kiwi 'journey man' making his debut for Wales. Played a big part in a GS & almost getting us to the WC final .....

Age should not come into it .........

lawrencesummers

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sonny bill Williams was 26 making his debut and went on to win 58 caps for the notoriously cut throat kiwis

SBW wasn’t 26 making his international rugby debut. He was 19.

The Inbetween is mine

KIB4Life wrote: »

Mike Ross was 29 when he was 1st capped and won 61 caps. John Hayes was 26 and won over 100 caps.

John Hayes is the very definition of journeyman, surprised he got beyond his first cap




Who's going to give thomond the Heimlich ?

sydthebeat

lawrencesummers wrote: »

SBW wasn’t 26 making his international rugby debut. He was 19.

Sorry, didn't think I had to differentiate for the pedants in the back

nerd69

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sorry, didn't think I had to differentiate for the pedants in the back

When brian carney 2.0 comes around sbw comparisons are relivant

Neil3030

Alright, but apart from Jared Payne, Bundee Aki, Mike Ross, John Hayes, Scott Fardy, Sonny Bill Williams, Hadleigh Parkes, the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system,.....

Louis Friend

Must love hardship wrote: »

journeyman

/ˈdʒəːnɪmən/

noun

1.

a worker or sports player who is reliable but not outstanding.

"a solid journeyman professional"

Correct. It’s gas when people try to assign the “loads of different clubs” definition to the term “journeyman” like they’ve just discovered fire. It should be pretty clear what someone means when they say “journeyman”.

LuckyLloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

Which is totally fine, because the IRFUs job isn't to pander to people like you. They have a responsibility to the game at every level in this country and finances are a crucial part to that (duh!). So prioritising a competition that is central to financing the game as a whole in Ireland is just the sensible and, ultimately, the right thing to do.

But then thats the bigger picture, perspective and all that other good stuff that is woefully lacking here during international windows. Yes, let's stop being like Ireland who have won 3 6Ns in the last several years and be more like France who, despite far more resources, only look set to win their first in over a decade. We should def look to emulate that and not our own successes.

Small time.

Competing at a World Cup would do more for the long term health (financial / player pool / long term interest) than success at an annual regional comp against the same opponents. You also assume that the Vodafone Greens can continue to suffer a humbling every four years and the fans will still buy back into Scotland the following February with the same enthusiasm.

You sneer at France, but France are respected by the Tri Nations. We are not. And if we maintain such a limited and unambitious mindset so it shall stay.

As for your “people like me” comment, you have no idea who I am and my history following playing and rugby aside from the fact I disagree with you. Play the ball sir.

Buer

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

John Hayes is the very definition of journeyman, surprised he got beyond his first cap

Preach.

Larbre34

Louis Friend wrote: »

Correct. It’s gas when people try to assign the “loads of different clubs” definition to the term “journeyman” like they’ve just discovered fire. It should be pretty clear what someone means when they say “journeyman”.

Not all journeymen go to many clubs, but those who players who go to many clubs are typically journeymen.

thomond2006

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Small time.

Competing at a World Cup would do more for the long term health (financial / player pool / long term interest) than success at an annual regional comp against the same opponents. You also assume that the Vodafone Greens can continue to suffer a humbling every four years and the fans will still buy back into Scotland the following February with the same enthusiasm.

You sneer at France, but France are respected by the Tri Nations. We are not. And if we maintain such a limited and unambitious mindset so it shall stay.

As for your “people like me” comment, you have no idea who I am and my history following playing and rugby aside from the fact I disagree with you. Play the ball sir.

Have you mentioned the team you actually wanted to see selected?

aloooof

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Small time.

Competing at a World Cup would do more for the long term health (financial / player pool / long term interest) than success at an annual regional comp against the same opponents. You also assume that the Vodafone Greens can continue to suffer a humbling every four years and the fans will still buy back into Scotland the following February with the same enthusiasm.

If you’re going to suggest this, can you answer the last time we failed to sell out a 6 Nations game?

LuckyLloyd

thomond2006 wrote: »

Have you mentioned the team you actually wanted to see selected?

Before the game last week I said on here that starting all of Earls, Sexton, Murray, Healy, POM and Stander was obscene.

We can debate who plays and gets a shot until the cows come home but from a strategic perspective starting all of the above two and a half years out is wrong.

Give them a 6 nations or two off - you can reassimilate them in 2023 if you’ve worked through the playing pool and the old war horses are still the best option closer to the tournament well you know and can work them back in.