Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

LuckyLloyd

aloooof wrote: »

If you’re going to suggest this, can you answer the last time we failed to sell out a 6 Nations game?

And maybe we can continue to bust out in the big show and that will continue to be the case. Let’s hope so the way we’re going.

lawrencesummers

sydthebeat wrote: »

Sorry, didn't think I had to differentiate for the pedants in the back

It’s not as if he was servicing boilers or flipping burgers for the decade before he got a call to international rugby Union, where he was only expected to do the exact same thing he had been doing for years, running hard, fast and offloading to faster people to score.

lawrencesummers

I could handle all this defence of our current approach to selection where it’s harder to get out of the team than Into it if our current team was actually winning something or beating good teams.

dub_skav

Neil3030 wrote: »

Alright, but apart from Jared Payne, Bundee Aki, Mike Ross, John Hayes, Scott Fardy, Sonny Bill Williams, Hadleigh Parkes, the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system,.....

Riki Flutey and Ben Te'o also.
Somewhat similar to Lowe in having been good will known players before moving north.
They didn't even need to serve the 3 years and were still 27/28 getting capped and both Lions tourists.

aloooof

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And maybe we can continue to bust out in the big show and that will continue to be the case. Let’s hope so the way we’re going.

So I’ll take it you’ve no idea when the last time we failed to sell out a 6 Nations game is.

As an aside, if you’re willing to be so disparaging that you’re prepared to call the team the “Vodafone Greens”, why do you bother watching them??

ersatz

aloooof wrote: »

So I’ll take it you’ve no idea when the last time we failed to sell out a 6 Nations game is.

As an aside, if you’re willing to be so disparaging that you’re prepared to call the team the “Vodafone Greens”, why do you bother watching them??

Reminds me of the tourist asking if the Dublin Arnotts play basketball.

I'm guessing one reason Irish coaches are loathe to sweep out the old as some posters want is that tactical gamelans are built around particular players or combinations of players. We are not blessed with the depth of talent in France or England. Farrell inherited Joe's team that had run into a cul de sac and chose not to jettison the half backs, pom, etc because he saw no alternatives or because he saw miles left on the clock and figured he could rebuild tactically with the same leadership core and add new players around them. Thats what he has done, with debatable success. I guess the reason he played Sexton so much in Autumn was because he is working to that script. Personally I think he has backed himself into a corner and now he has to gamble but this is the only reason I can think of to be in this position.

ElisaAtWar

I might suggest that the loss of Murray is not a huge loss. But the loss of Sexton is a huge loss. So folks will complain, can you ever be happy. Mollyjh said it, Sexton is number 1 and we have no number 2. So you can put any player at 10 but they will not be able to manage.

I do believe we need a better functioning 9, but there is no better functioning 10 than Sexton.

Which is why any Irish supporter struggles to believe in this team.

UAEguy2020

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

I might suggest that the loss of Murray is not a huge loss. But the loss of Sexton is a huge loss. So folks will complain, can you ever be happy. Mollyjh said it, Sexton is number 1 and we have no number 2. So you can put any player at 10 but they will not be able to manage.

I do believe we need a better functioning 9, but there is no better functioning 10 than Sexton.

Which is why any Irish supporter struggles to believe in this team.

The problem is this is an issue we created by not giving any 10 a chance... no 10 bar Owen Farrell in the NH is as good as Sexton in his pomp so expecting another 10 to match that is totally unrealistic and causing more harm than good.

Dubinusa

Just perused through the premiership rosters and the thing that jumps out at me is, after Farrell and Ford, there's not too much else. Smith at Harlequins would be next up, I suppose. Wasps have 2 Kiwis listed as 10's. Sale have McGinty and DuPreez. L.I its PJ and throughout the other squads there's not much to boast about. Bigger starts for the Saints and Priestland with Gloucester, iirc.
I reckon that they have 2 top level lads and 1 who's ready to make it. Not all rosy across the pond.

lawrencesummers

ersatz wrote: »

Reminds me of the tourist asking if the Dublin Arnotts play basketball.

I'm guessing one reason Irish coaches are loathe to sweep out the old as some posters want is that tactical gamelans are built around particular players or combinations of players. We are not blessed with the depth of talent in France or England. Farrell inherited Joe's team that had run into a cul de sac and chose not to jettison the half backs, pom, etc because he saw no alternatives or because he saw miles left on the clock and figured he could rebuild tactically with the same leadership core and add new players around them. Thats what he has done, with debatable success. I guess the reason he played Sexton so much in Autumn was because he is working to that script. Personally I think he has backed himself into a corner and now he has to gamble but this is the only reason I can think of to be in this position.

So you think he is consciously doubling down on a game plan that isn’t working with players who can’t implement it successfully?

Yeah_Right

Neil3030 wrote: »

Alright, but apart from Jared Payne, Bundee Aki, Mike Ross, John Hayes, Scott Fardy, Sonny Bill Williams, Hadleigh Parkes, the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system,.....

You can add Brad Thorn, 28 when he debuted for the ABs. Some might argue that he was a pro league player before that but second row in rugby is very different to second row in league. He won 50 plus caps, a RWC and some trophy with Leinster. Frank Bunce was 30 on his AB debut,won 50 plus caps and is in the conversation of their best ever centre.

I remember years ago in NZ when the general consensus was when a player hit 30, it was time for them to head north for their retirement package. No RWCs were won during that time.

In saying all that, go on Casey!! He is going to come on in the 2nd half and show everyone that DuPont is the second best halfback in the NH. Casey for the Lions.

lawrencesummers

Dubinusa wrote: »

Just perused through the premiership rosters and the thing that jumps out at me is, after Farrell and Ford, there's not too much else. Smith at Harlequins would be next up, I suppose. Wasps have 2 Kiwis listed as 10's. Sale have McGinty and DuPreez. L.I its PJ and throughout the other squads there's not much to boast about. Bigger starts for the Saints and Priestland with Gloucester, iirc.
I reckon that they have 2 top level lads and 1 who's ready to make it. Not all rosy across the pond.

Manu Vinopolu
20yrs old
30 Sarries caps

Neil3030

dub_skav wrote: »

Riki Flutey and Ben Te'o also.
Somewhat similar to Lowe in having been good will known players before moving north.
They didn't even need to serve the 3 years and were still 27/28 getting capped and both Lions tourists.

Payne and Flutey are such irreparable journeymen, they played both FOR and AGAINST the Lions!

ersatz

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So you think he is consciously doubling down on a game plan that isn’t working with players who can’t implement it successfully?

I think we have seen some evolution in the game plan over the last year but it's upside has been undermined by a decline of set piece consistency and by a higher number of errors than the team had been making, also a few key players form fell off a cliff, Murray and Stockdale are examples. But Ireland have been playing a looser and somewhat less predictable game under Farrell with more running from deep, (some) more offloading, and more ball playing from forwards. Remember when there was dancing in the streets because Furlong made a pass for a try against England a few years ago? That's more common now.

So I don't think it's that players can't implement it, I think it's just taking more time than he has with some of these players. Its small margins though, going down the line before half time against France last year and the maul getting sacked, score there and the championship was still on the line going in at half time...

TRC10

Dubinusa wrote: »

Just perused through the premiership rosters and the thing that jumps out at me is, after Farrell and Ford, there's not too much else. Smith at Harlequins would be next up, I suppose. Wasps have 2 Kiwis listed as 10's. Sale have McGinty and DuPreez. L.I its PJ and throughout the other squads there's not much to boast about. Bigger starts for the Saints and Priestland with Gloucester, iirc.
I reckon that they have 2 top level lads and 1 who's ready to make it. Not all rosy across the pond.

Marcus smith at harlequins
Manu vunipola at saracens
Jacob umaga at wasps
Joe Simmonds at exeter

They're well sorted

yerrahbah

He's pretty damning of Sexton

cantwbr1

yerrahbah wrote: »

He's pretty damning of Sexton

He was but he also completely ignored the fact that Wales barely scraped over the line having had a man advantage for 65 minutes and that both Wales tries came from Ireland errors rather than Welsh initiatives.

I think that he’s a better analyst when he hasn’t an emotional interest in one of the teams.
As pointed out here before, the stupid nicknames lark is incredibly annoying. It actually puts me off watching him.

Scratchly

I can't stand that squidge rugby. The analysis is ok and interesting from what I've seen but he's impossible to listen to. I honestly don't get how someone so cringingly unfunny and annoying has become so popular.

But then again that goes for most of YouTube.

Buer

The fact that he describes the video as a "promising Welsh win" and says that Wales would have won regardless of the red card completely undermines his analysis. For someone who puts so much effort into his work, he clearly cultivates his pieces to reenforce an opinion he already held.

Wales were "phenomenally comfortable" in the first half apparently and the scoreline was misleading.

Basically, like most of us, he's a fan with a laptop but spends far more time analysing the game.

schmoo2k

cantwbr1 wrote: »

He was but he also completely ignored the fact that Wales barely scraped over the line having had a man advantage for 65 minutes and that both Wales tries came from Ireland errors rather than Welsh initiatives.

I think that he’s a better analyst when he hasn’t an emotional interest in one of the teams.
As pointed out here before, the stupid nicknames lark is incredibly annoying. It actually puts me off watching him.

Obviously put you off watching to the end!

stephen_n

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The problem is this is an issue we created by not giving any 10 a chance... no 10 bar Owen Farrell in the NH is as good as Sexton in his pomp so expecting another 10 to match that is totally unrealistic and causing more harm than good.

No it was created by the next ten in line ending up in a lot of trouble. Then the next one after that being injured for 2 years. Saying that giving time to 3 others that simply aren’t good enough. Would make them good enough, is a ridiculous stance to take. Driven by a confirmation bias, that anything new will be better. When that is simply not true.

stephen_n

yerrahbah wrote: »

He's pretty damning of Sexton

He’s always damming of Sexton, even when he was world player of the year. He’s first and foremost a Welsh fan, then an analyst of the game. That really comes across in that video.

cantwbr1

schmoo2k wrote: »

Obviously put you off watching to the end!

Gave up with about 5 minutes to go:-)

CMcsporty

stephen_n wrote: »

He’s always damming of Sexton, even when he was world player of the year. He’s first and foremost a Welsh fan, then an analyst of the game. That really comes across in that video.

Yeah...but he’s not wrong about Sexton v Wales!
He’s correct to say that when watching him now: it’s just sad.
I’ve felt that way since 2019
It’s nonsense to keep saying he’s the best 10 Ireland have.

Buer

CMcsporty wrote: »

It’s nonsense to keep saying he’s the best 10 Ireland have.

It's nonsense to say otherwise.

Who is a better 10? Only the most one eyed would say that Burns, Byrne or Carty are better outhalves at this point. And that's based on recent form too.

If we're investing for the future, there's absolutely a case for starting someone else and building their game time as we phase Sexton out.

I repeatedly see people calling for others to be selected ahead of Sexton but, aside from age/planning for the future, I'm yet to see a legitimate argument put forward for anyone as a better outhalf than him based on their actualy respective abilities and/or form.

CMcsporty

No. It’s not.
Jack Carty is the form 10 in Ireland.

Burns and Byrne are not international standard but are still better options than Sexton now.

If you can point to 1 exceptional game Sexton has played for Ireland since NZ in 2018 I would be surprised.

CMcsporty

CMcsporty wrote: »

No. It’s not.
Jack Carty is the form 10 in Ireland.

Burns and Byrne are not international standard but are still better options than Sexton now.

If you can point to 1 exceptional game Sexton has played for Ireland since NZ in 2018 I would be surprised.

He was excellent against Scotland in December, apart from pulling the strings well he was one of the top tacklers and won a couple of turnovers.

Jack Carty is a fine player, as are Burns and Byrne. None of them are in the category of Biggar, Farrell, Sexton or even Russell as mercurial as he is. None will come into discussion for the Lions tour this Summer (which obviously wont happen but you get my point) and none are good enough in my view to direct Ireland through to a World Cup semi final bar some obscure circumstances.

The overall value and experience Sexton brings to the Irish team and the benefit that affords our relatively fresh faced back line trumps game time for backups that aren't good enough, again - in my opinion.

Buer

CMcsporty wrote: »

No. It’s not.
Jack Carty is the form 10 in Ireland.

Burns and Byrne are not international standard but are still better options than Sexton now.

If you can point to 1 exceptional game Sexton has played for Ireland since NZ in 2018 I would be surprised.

Does he need to have an exceptional game to be the best outhalf? Does he need to match the form where he was literally voted the best rugby player in the world?

He's clearly on the wane. He isn't reaching the levels he was before. Again, that doesn't mean there's anyone better than him. You could see in games such as the opening 40 minutes against France in the autumn that he was well able to perform to a test level against top opposition before he ran out of steam and we were opened up.

Jack Carty is not a better outhalf on form or ability (and again, you haven't actually provided any evidence). His audition was the interpro series in the past 6 weeks and he was inconsistent. He was exposed at key times including his opening kick and the final phases against Munster. He was equally patchy against Ulster when he was scored a good try, kicked two lovely conversions and then was walked through for a try by a scrum half. The guy has bags of talent but cannot put it together with any consistency to the extent that Connacht fans were calling out his poor showings on here earlier this season.

His goal kicking alone makes it hard to select him. It's a game of roulette as to whether he'll slot even a straightforward kick. He's currently on 73% in the Pro14 according to their website where there's zero pressure. How is that going to translate to test level consistently?

Whilst I still watch through my fingers when Sexton steps up for penalties at times, I would have zero faith in Carty. In Sexton's last two games he had to go away to Cardiff and Thomond and nailed big penalties in both to bring his team back into the match. That's a key difference even before we look at aspects such as their respective defensive abilities.

CMcsporty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He was excellent against Scotland in December, apart from pulling the strings well he was one of the top tacklers and won a couple of turnovers.

Jack Carty is a fine player, as are Burns and Byrne. None of them are in the category of Biggar, Farrell, Sexton or even Russell as mercurial as he is. None will come into discussion for the Lions tour this Summer (which obviously wont happen but you get my point) and none are good enough in my view to direct Ireland through to a World Cup semi final bar some obscure circumstances.

The overall value and experience Sexton brings to the Irish team and the benefit that affords our relatively fresh faced back line trumps game time for backups that aren't good enough, again - in my opinion.

Average v Scot.
Played 64 mins. Missed pens and limped off injured again.
Amazingly he actually kicked cleverly in the 22’ off an advantage for Earls try when Scotland were down to 14.
Sexton played poorly up until Scot yellow

CMcsporty

Buer wrote: »

Does he need to have an exceptional game to be the best outhalf? Does he need to match the form where he was literally voted the best rugby player in the world?

He's clearly on the wane. He isn't reaching the levels he was before. Again, that doesn't mean there's anyone better than him. You could see in games such as the opening 40 minutes against France in the autumn that he was well able to perform to a test level against top opposition before he ran out of steam and we were opened up.

Jack Carty is not a better outhalf on form or ability (and again, you haven't actually provided any evidence). His audition was the interpro series in the past 6 weeks and he was inconsistent. He was exposed at key times including his opening kick and the final phases against Munster. He was equally patchy against Ulster when he was scored a good try, kicked two lovely conversions and then was walked through for a try by a scrum half. The guy has bags of talent but cannot put it together with any consistency to the extent that Connacht fans were calling out his poor showings on here earlier this season.

His goal kicking alone makes it hard to select him. It's a game of roulette as to whether he'll slot even a straightforward kick. He's currently on 73% in the Pro14 according to their website where there's zero pressure. How is that going to translate to test level consistently?

Whilst I still watch through my fingers when Sexton steps up for penalties at times, I would have zero faith in Carty. In Sexton's last two games he had to go away to Cardiff and Thomond and nailed big penalties in both to bring his team back into the match. That's a key difference even before we look at aspects such as their respective defensive abilities.

The answer is he hasn’t had an exceptional game!
Never mind even a good game

It’s been a rapid decrease in form since NZ ‘18

Farrell should have gradually reduced his role in 2020 to the point in Autumn where he should have been excluded.

Edit
& He also didn’t play well in Oct v France