Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

CMcsporty

CMcsporty wrote: »

Average v Scot.
Played 64 mins. Missed pens and limped off injured again.
Amazingly he actually kicked cleverly in the 22’ off an advantage for Earls try when Scotland were down to 14.
Sexton played poorly up until Scot yellow

CMcsporty wrote: »

The answer is he hasn’t had an exceptional game!
Never mind even a good game

It’s been a rapid decrease in form since NZ ‘18

Farrell should have gradually reduced his role in 2020 to the point in Autumn where he should have been excluded.

You are summarily dismissing what people are saying to you so there is little point in continuing this discussion.

Regardless, the coaches aren't considering Carty even at a squad level so unless there are further injuries or Carty starts consistently smashing it in the pro14 then I don't think this is a debate that matters either way.

Jonny Sexton has repeatedly cited Tom Brady as an example that he that wants to emulate but the problem is that they are two completely different games in question.

Even so in the one real area that the two games do have in common, sexton's decision-making and execution under pressure seems to have gone seriously downhill.

You have to applaud his continuing desire but it's not happening.

CMcsporty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You are summarily dismissing what people are saying to you so there is little point in continuing this discussion.

Regardless, the coaches aren't considering Carty even at a squad level so unless there are further injuries or Carty starts consistently smashing it in the pro14 then I don't think this is a debate that matters either way.

Ok
I’m just giving an opinion and asked a question

UAEguy2020

I’m starting to think maybe Sexton is the problem in our attack.

eagle eye

Sexton is still ireland's best 10. He has clearly regressed but that's not the issue.
The issue us whose next best and it's certainly not Burns.

Buer

CMcsporty wrote: »

The answer is he hasn’t had an exceptional game!
Never mind even a good game

It’s been a rapid decrease in form since NZ ‘18

Farrell should have gradually reduced his role in 2020 to the point in Autumn where he should have been excluded.

Edit
& He also didn’t play well in Oct v France

I know he hasn't had an exceptional game; my point was it's ridiculous to hold him to that level. No other player in the game is held to that level.

Regarding not having a good game, that's nonsensical but you clearly have made up your mind. He was very good in the opening 40 minutes against France and we attacked them accurately and were in contention away to arguably the best test team in the world at the moment. He ran the ball, kicked in behind them very well (and was unlucky not to get a penalty try out of it) and distributed the ball accurately.

Again, this isn't about him being a brilliant outhalf anymore. It's about him being the best available which you (or anyone else that I've seen on here) still haven't been able to make a case against with any evidence.

UAEguy2020

eagle eye wrote: »

Sexton is still ireland's best 10. He has clearly regressed but that's not the issue.
The issue us whose next best and it's certainly not Burns.

Is that based on anything relevant or just reputation?

UAEguy2020

Buer wrote: »

I know he hasn't had an exceptional game; my point was it's ridiculous to hold him to that level. No other player in the game is held to that level.

Regarding not having a good game, that's nonsensical but you clearly have made up your mind. He was very good in the opening 40 minutes against France and we attacked them accurately and were in contention away to arguably the best test team in the world at the moment. He ran the ball, kicked in behind them very well (and was unlucky not to get a penalty try out of it) and distributed the ball accurately.

Again, this isn't about him being a brilliant outhalf anymore. It's about him being the best available which you (or anyone else that I've seen on here) still haven't been able to make a case against with any evidence.

Ross Byrne and Billy Burns are it seems.

CMcsporty

I don’t think it’s ridiculous to ask has he had 1 single exceptional game in 2 years plus.
That’s 17 games I think.

My point is that the faith put in Sexton has been not seen an upturn in form, a really positive display (I don’t agree with the examples given - 40 mins v Fra and 64’ v Scot) or a performance where I can say that he is still the solution.
2020 was a bridge too far
2021 Ireland are left picking up the pieces of not moving on from Sexton.

Buer

CMcsporty wrote: »

My point is that the faith put in Sexton has been not seen an upturn in form, a really positive display (I don’t agree with the examples given - 40 mins v Fra and 64’ v Scot) or a performance where I can say that he is still the solution.

Yes but in fairness you also have said that Burns and Byrne are better test options than Sexton despite recent showings in green so I think we're going to seriously struggle to agree on the relative merits of outhalf play.

CMcsporty

I simply want more minutes in the legs of the other 10s

They would be better players for it. And definitely not the worst for it.

Sexton right now is done. It’s sad.

I wish Burns well. But I know Carty is a better player.
With Carbery the golden goose

UAEguy2020

Buer wrote: »

Yes but in fairness you also have said that Burns and Byrne are better test options than Sexton despite recent showings in green so I think we're going to seriously struggle to agree on the relative merits of outhalf play.

How do you get better? You play matches.

bilston

CMcsporty wrote: »

I simply want more minutes in the legs of the other 10s

They would be better players for it. And definitely not the worst for it.

Sexton right now is done. It’s sad.

I wish Burns well. But I know Carty is a better player.
With Carbery the golden goose

Debatable about Carty, but he does seem to have been unceremoniously dumped after the WC.

We're in an out half slump right now, but it won't last long IMO.

This time next year Carbery could be back, Harry Byrne could be first choice Leinster out half, Sexton will still be about as a steady hand and maybe Jack Crowley will be getting his game at Munster. I honestly think things will look different next year for all sorts of reasons!

Buer

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

How do you get better? You play matches.

Which is a fair point if Burns, Byrne and Carty didn't have an average of about 140 professional games each.

thomond2006

The idea that an average player at his province is going to become above average in a green shirt is bizarre, at least ones who have played extensively at club level.

UAEguy2020

thomond2006 wrote: »

The idea that an average player at his province is going to become above average in a green shirt is bizarre, at least ones who have played extensively at club level.

Average would be better than anything Sexton has produced recently.

UAEguy2020

Buer wrote: »

Which is a fair point if Burns, Byrne and Carty didn't have an average of about 140 professional games each.

At test level...

CMcsporty

Average club player
Plays an international. Struggles
Plays another international. Struggles a little less

End of theory

aloooof

CMcsporty wrote: »

Average club player
Plays an international. Struggles
Plays another international. Struggles a little less

End of theory

They also have a ceiling to that improvement that is, imo, below what Sexton is currently producing.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

They also have a ceiling to that improvement that is, imo, below what Sexton is currently producing.

I think it’s best you actually watch Sexton play before commenting how Sexton is playing...

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I think it’s best you actually watch Sexton play before commenting how Sexton is playing...

Disagree by all means, but is the auld condescension necessary there, chief?

Zzippy

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I think it’s best you actually watch Sexton play before commenting how Sexton is playing...

Mod: I think it's best you get some manners before commenting on other people's posts. The condescending tone is becoming quite tiresome, and is not conducive to the reasoned debate we encourage in the forum. And that goes for everyone else who thinks it's ok to talk down to people like this.

.ak

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Average would be better than anything Sexton has produced recently.

Honestly, I don't think it would be. I think that's hyperbole.

Sexton has been in middling form, struggling with game sharpness, and yet is still by and far our best 10. Says a lot of about our setup, but for all the ropey passes and poor kicks, Sexton's game management, communication, leadership and level of detail is still head and shoulders above the next viable options.

If Carberry had a good 12 months injury free under his belt I probably wouldn't be too worried, so long as he had a sharp Murray playing inside him.

I think Irish rugby has always put it's eggs in it's basket with regards to Sexton, and we're in trouble now because of it. All teams go through transition, and I think we're in one now, with the twilight of our star players wanning and some new blood being introduced, but we'll have to suck it up and realize we're probably not going to be competitive in these transitional periods. We just don't have the resources or player stock.

I'm not too concerned, I'll enjoy watching the newer players tussle for position. All jokes aside from Harry Byrne, I fully believe he'll overtake his brother in blue and green in 12 months time. I felt that the first time he played for the 1st XV for Leinster, his transition looked far more seamless than Ross who impressed at u20 level but looked nervous at elite level. We've been grooming Ross to take over from Sexton but I feel we'll see that from Harry, barring injury.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

Disagree by all means, but is the auld condescension necessary there, chief?

Not condescending, just making it clear that your position in this isn’t based on reality. If Ireland want to play an expansive game plan than Sexton isn’t the answer and right now he isn’t good enough at the basics of the game to warrant playing if he doesn’t fit the plan. Burns does and once he returns Carbery and Harry Byrne in time will also.

Rugby4568

When’s Carbery back from his injury or is he ever going to be back?

UAEguy2020

The squidge rugby video was funny as the parts that Sexton was shown to be unhelpful are exactly the same problems that we throw at Ross Byrne...maybe if people take their emotions out of things and judged things based on reality maybe people would realize that Sexton isn’t our savior anymore...

Scratchly

Sexton is always criticised for underperforming and has been for years. Yet every time he's unavailable and Ireland are reliant on someone else the gap between him "underperforming" and his would be successors is clear to see.

I really hope Burns and Byrne go well tomorrow. Sexton doesn't have long left at the rate he's getting injured.

UAEguy2020

Rugby4568 wrote: »

When’s Carbery back from his injury or is he ever going to be back?

He should play this season and hopefully will be back for Ireland for the autumn.

Buer

Again, as per usual, the conversation is utterly fixated on Sexton. People are obsessed with him and getting him out of the team far more than actually assessing the other options based on the body of evidence available. And nobody is actually providing evidence from the other candidates of their recent form which warrants test inclusion.

Sexton isn't the core issue. It's the performances of those behind him. The notion that if you keep playing someone at test level, they'll become test level players is exceptionally simplistic. We've seen Burns and Byrne at outhalf in green recently. They looked mediocre and, whilst there was a spark from Burns once or twice, they absolutely did not look like guys who were ready or deserving of top level test time.

Anyone who has been watching these guys for their provinces in the past six weeks will know their form isn't good. Carty has been very inconsistent. Burns gave a shocker against Leinster and mediocre showing against Munster. Ross Byrne has played 27 minutes at outhalf in almost 2 months. His last start at 10 was against Northampton, an average showing which he wasn't due to start either.

These guys aren't stepping up at provincial level and demanding game time for Ireland. That's their problem. Not some notion that guys in their mid or late twenties will suddenly transform into test starters simply because they play in them.

UAEguy2020

And it’s ironic in saying Ross Byrne and Billy Burns aren’t anywhere near as good yet we seem to hold them to much higher standards than we hold Sexton to.