Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Teferi

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And it’s ironic in saying Ross Byrne and Billy Burns aren’t anywhere near as good yet we seem to hold them to much higher standards than we hold Sexton to.

Our low standards for the *check notes* former World Player of the Year.

If anything, the criticism of Sexton's performances come from him not hitting his standards anymore, which is higher than most players.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Not condescending, just making it clear that your position in this isn’t based on reality. If Ireland want to play an expansive game plan than Sexton isn’t the answer and right now he isn’t good enough at the basics of the game to warrant playing if he doesn’t fit the plan. Burns does and once he returns Carbery and Harry Byrne in time will also.

I'll ignore the condescending thing, but trying to move the conversation along, what do you thnk Burns or Ross Byrne does currently that is above the level Sexton is delivering? And what evidence do you have for it?

Teferi

Teferi wrote: »

Our low standards for the *check notes* former World Player of the Year.

If anything, the criticism of Sexton's performances come from him not hitting his standards anymore, which is higher than most players.

"The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there."

UAEguy2020

Teferi wrote: »

Our low standards for the *check notes* former World Player of the Year.

If anything, the criticism of Sexton's performances come from him not hitting his standards anymore, which is higher than most players.

Unless he was world player of the year in 2020 that’s totally irrelevant. No the criticism is Sexton playing ****...

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

I'll ignore the condescending thing, but trying to move the conversation along, what do you thnk Burns or Ross Byrne does currently that is above the level Sexton is delivering? And what evidence do you have for it?

Ross Byrne is a better tactical kicker of the ball and doesn’t get over emotional and steadies the ship.

Burns is far better at taking the ball to the line and it feels while things may not be relaxing he might actually make a try happen. Our backline looks totally rudderless and I’m starting to think Sexton may be the issue in our stifled backline.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Ross Byrne is a better tactical kicker of the ball and doesn’t get over emotional and steadies the ship.

Burns is far better at taking the ball to the line and it feels while things may not be relaxing he might actually make a try happen. Our backline looks totally rudderless and I’m starting to think Sexton may be the issue in our stifled backline.

Ok, that's the 'what'. Now the evidence for it?

CMcsporty

Buer wrote: »

Again, as per usual, the conversation is utterly fixated on Sexton. People are obsessed with him and getting him out of the team far more than actually assessing the other options based on the body of evidence available. And nobody is actually providing evidence from the other candidates of their recent form which warrants test inclusion.

Sexton isn't the core issue. It's the performances of those behind him. The notion that if you keep playing someone at test level, they'll become test level players is exceptionally simplistic. We've seen Burns and Byrne at outhalf in green recently. They looked mediocre and, whilst there was a spark from Burns once or twice, they absolutely did not look like guys who were ready or deserving of top level test time.

Anyone who has been watching these guys for their provinces in the past six weeks will know their form isn't good. Carty has been very inconsistent. Burns gave a shocker against Leinster and mediocre showing against Munster. Ross Byrne has played 27 minutes at outhalf in almost 2 months. His last start at 10 was against Northampton, an average showing which he wasn't due to start either.

These guys aren't stepping up at provincial level and demanding game time for Ireland. That's their problem. Not some notion that guys in their mid or late twenties will suddenly transform into test starters simply because they play in them.

I’ll gladly fixate on Murray also!

100% agree the malaise Ireland is going through is not all on Sextons shoulders.

I again counter on Carty. I don’t prescribe to the inconsistency thing over the last 6 weeks.
Some mistakes yes but look at his contemporaries!

Off the tee is probably his biggest inconsistency.

He’s not Farrell’s cup of tea. He’s not been selected.
I don’t agree with the alternatives.

Personally I think Farrell is struggling as a selector based on 9,10,Earls, Lowe and Stockdale at FB.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

Ok, that's the 'what'. Now the evidence for it?

First one, watch any game the two have played and you’ll see the difference

Second one, last week.

Buer

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And it’s ironic in saying Ross Byrne and Billy Burns aren’t anywhere near as good yet we seem to hold them to much higher standards than we hold Sexton to.

We don't (and that isn't irony even if it was). Again, you're making statements with no evidence. If Sexton had a final 10 minutes last week like Burns had, it would have been the equivalent of ROG in Edinburgh in 2013 i.e. a test career ending situation.

If we had options, I'd like to see them used. If Carbery was fit or Jackson was still in Ulster playing the way he once did, I'd have them starting.

These other guys are solid professional players. They're not test quality and would merely be a poor place holders until we have a genuine replacement.

UAEguy2020

Buer wrote: »

Again, as per usual, the conversation is utterly fixated on Sexton. People are obsessed with him and getting him out of the team far more than actually assessing the other options based on the body of evidence available. And nobody is actually providing evidence from the other candidates of their recent form which warrants test inclusion.

Sexton isn't the core issue. It's the performances of those behind him. The notion that if you keep playing someone at test level, they'll become test level players is exceptionally simplistic. We've seen Burns and Byrne at outhalf in green recently. They looked mediocre and, whilst there was a spark from Burns once or twice, they absolutely did not look like guys who were ready or deserving of top level test time.

Anyone who has been watching these guys for their provinces in the past six weeks will know their form isn't good. Carty has been very inconsistent. Burns gave a shocker against Leinster and mediocre showing against Munster. Ross Byrne has played 27 minutes at outhalf in almost 2 months. His last start at 10 was against Northampton, an average showing which he wasn't due to start either.

These guys aren't stepping up at provincial level and demanding game time for Ireland. That's their problem. Not some notion that guys in their mid or late twenties will suddenly transform into test starters simply because they play in them.

The players behind him can only play based on how the play maker (Sexton) allows them to play, funny how everyone is blamed except god Sexton.

If we base playing 10s on recent performances than Sexton is mediocre at best too. Funny all the talk is on Burns miss touch yet everyone is dead silent on god Sextons miss touch.

sydthebeat

So now that tomorrow we don't have Murray or Sexton playing, we should win yeah???
Isn't that how its supposed to go?

So two questions.
If we win, obviously by playing well, do we keep JGP and Billy B for the rest of the tournament.... Even though they aren't some fans preferred choice.

If we lose, and lose badly, do we bring Murray and sexton back in for the rest of the tournament?

Or do we give summer and autumn a miss and go directly to Casey and Harry Byrne for time immemorial??

Natterjack from Kerry

.ak wrote: »

I think Irish rugby has always put it's eggs in it's basket with regards to Sexton, and we're in trouble now because of it.

Agree entirely Sexton is without doubt still Ireland's clear first choice, and those calling for his dropping are talking nonsense. Johnny on the wane is still clearly better than the journeymen alternatives.

But think the above is a bit harsh, and dont think they did really. They had four eggs in the basket.
Jackson and Carbery was the contest to succeed JS, and a decent one. Madigan was the fourth, not likely to contend and was tossed around a bit anyway. No criticism of letting him leave. But that still left three. Losing Jackson to forced exile by the travesty of the court of public lynching, and long term injury to Carbery is just bad luck. Leaving OK-ish at best club players, who were never expected or intended to be in the frame, on the scene to challenge Sexton to be droppable rather than almost hang on as long as he wants to. Ireland has normally only had one true international level outhalf at any time, and at best occasionally, two. Losing two heir apparents as Sexton reaches the certain age, was never likely to leave us with quality to replace him. So push on with JS for a few years looks sensible. And nothing obvious on the horizon either.

UAEguy2020

Buer wrote: »

We don't (and that isn't irony even if it was). Again, you're making statements with no evidence. If Sexton had a final 10 minutes last week like Burns had, it would have been the equivalent of ROG in Edinburgh in 2013 i.e. a test career ending situation.

If we had options, I'd like to see them used. If Carbery was fit or Jackson was still in Ulster playing the way he once did, I'd have them starting.

These other guys are solid professional players. They're not test quality and would merely be a poor place holders until we have a genuine replacement.

Yeah we do, god Sexton hasn’t been any better than the other options at 10 yet he doesn’t get anywhere near the same criticism when he ****s up. You mean missing touch and one misplaced pass? You forget god Sexton missed touch aswell sweetie solid professionals are better than Sexton right now but the main point is if Ireland want to play an expansive game plan they are better playing a 10 suited to that (Burns) than god Sexton who does nothing except stop any semblance on an attacking play.

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If we base playing 10s on recent performances than Sexton is mediocre at best too. Funny all the talk is on Burns miss touch yet everyone is dead silent on god Sextons miss touch.

No one is, not even Sexton himself.

You sir, are a liar

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

So now that tomorrow we don't have Murray or Sexton playing, we should win yeah???
Isn't that how its supposed to go?

So two questions.
If we win, obviously by playing well, do we keep JGP and Billy B for the rest of the tournament.... Even though they aren't some fans preferred choice.

If we lose, and lose badly, do we bring Murray and sexton back in for the rest of the tournament?

Or do we give summer and autumn a miss and go directly to Casey and Harry Byrne for time immemorial??

If we lose they get 100% of the blame

If we win people will wait until they screw up and if they do we will say they aren’t test standard and should be dropped.

A narrative has been created so it doesn’t matter what happens in reality.

UAEguy2020

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Agree entirely Sexton is without doubt still Ireland's clear first choice, and those calling for his dropping are talking nonsense. Johnny on the wane is still clearly better than the journeymen alternatives.

But think the above is a bit harsh, and dont think they did really. They had four eggs in the basket.
Jackson and Carbery was the contest to succeed JS, and a decent one. Madigan was the fourth, not likely to contend and was tossed around a bit anyway. No criticism of letting him leave. But that still left three. Losing Jackson to forced exile by the travesty of the court of public lynching, and long term injury to Carbery is just bad luck. Leaving OK-ish at best club players, who were never expected or intended to be in the frame, on the scene to challenge Sexton to be droppable rather than almost hang on as long as he wants to. Ireland has normally only had one true international level outhalf at any time, and at best occasionally, two. Losing two heir apparents as Sexton reaches the certain age, was never likely to leave us with quality to replace him. So push on with JS for a few years looks sensible. And nothing obvious on the horizon either.

And again what evidence is there of that? That’s another narrative created based on no evidence.

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

No one is, not even Sexton himself.

You sir, are a liar

All I’ve heard is Burns miss touch, where’s the post on Sextons? Can’t see any.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

First one, watch any game the two have played and you’ll see the difference

Second one, last week.

See, that all seems pretty vague to me. How about actual examples?

I'll give you an actual example of why I think ross Byrne isn't the answer. Between ~27-29 mins in the England game, Ireland had a lot of phase play.

There are 4 phases where RB gets the ball very deep, runs laterally and passes very early. This pattern continued for the rest of the match. England were just able to line up their defence beyond RB, he didn't threaten the line at all.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

See, that all seems pretty vague to me. How about actual examples?

I'll give you an actual example of why I think ross Byrne isn't the answer. Between ~27-29 mins in the England game, Ireland had a lot of phase play.

There are 4 phases where RB gets the ball very deep, runs laterally and passes very early. This pattern continued for the rest of the match. England were just able to line up their defence beyond RB, he didn't threaten the line at all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iDr8qFifJCw

Okay here’s the 6N match that Sexton started, could you show me any point Sexton did anything different?

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iDr8qFifJCw

Okay here’s the 6N match that Sexton started, could you show me any point Sexton did anything different?

So I've provided evidence for my argument, and instead of you providing evidence for your argument, you want me to provide more evidence??

bilston

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Agree entirely Sexton is without doubt still Ireland's clear first choice, and those calling for his dropping are talking nonsense. Johnny on the wane is still clearly better than the journeymen alternatives.

But think the above is a bit harsh, and dont think they did really. They had four eggs in the basket.
Jackson and Carbery was the contest to succeed JS, and a decent one. Madigan was the fourth, not likely to contend and was tossed around a bit anyway. No criticism of letting him leave. But that still left three. Losing Jackson to forced exile by the travesty of the court of public lynching, and long term injury to Carbery is just bad luck. Leaving OK-ish at best club players, who were never expected or intended to be in the frame, on the scene to challenge Sexton to be droppable rather than almost hang on as long as he wants to. Ireland has normally only had one true international level outhalf at any time, and at best occasionally, two. Losing two heir apparents as Sexton reaches the certain age, was never likely to leave us with quality to replace him. So push on with JS for a few years looks sensible. And nothing obvious on the horizon either.

Understand the sentiment here...but in H.Byrne and Crowley there might be guys on the horizon and there's always the chance that this time next year Carbery will be an option again.

But we are where we are st the minute, we have 3 guys who are decent Pro 14 players and players that are capable of the odd decent turn at European level in R.Byrne, Burns and Carty.

But the reality is the succession policy was on track until an ill fated night a few years ago for one player and a series of bad injuries to another player. In a parallel universe Sexton may not even be getting another contract. In effect we're having to skip a generation and we are probably feeling the maximum impact of that right now. But it will get better soon IMO...and given that I think the rest of the team looks strong 2022 and beyond could be quite exciting for Irish rugby...just my opinion.

On a really positive note...tomorrow should mark the beginning of Craig Casey's International career...it could be long and fruitful.

Natterjack from Kerry

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And again what evidence is there of that? That’s another narrative created based on no evidence.

There is all the evidence of selection of those three players. As development, or as substitute selections, and as starters when injuries required. All three played big games and crucial roles in them. They were the permanent squad members when available. It no narrative. They are the facts of IRFU selections.

prawnsambo

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

All I’ve heard is Burns miss touch, where’s the post on Sextons? Can’t see any.

*Posts. Never used the search function on boards?

leakyboots wrote: »

That was one of the most brainless performances I've seen by us, possibly ever. POM was having a fine game and then did that, Murray had some aimless boxkicks and that high tackle, Sexton missing touch, Ringrose offload, Earls tackling in the air and kicking on the full in succession, James Lowe simply cannot read a loose defensive set, he's like Adam Byrne at times. Burns opting to kick the ball crossfield... and as for the last kick, disaster. Was Lowe distracting him, what's he doing on his shoulder there? Probably not, but either way Burns didn't need to stick it onto the flag.

A litany of brainless stuff.

Beirne, Keenan, Henshaw, Ringrose, Healy, Porter, Furlong, Stander can hold their heads up, Henderson too.

But it's not as if the Championship is gone, still plenty road to go.

How bad were Wales that we could have beaten them in spite of all the above? That's probably what stings the most.

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Sexton missed touch too. Sad truth is that none of our fly halves are at the required level.

twinytwo wrote: »

Why no complaining of Sexton missing touch.... Oh wait i know :rolleyes:

jammiedodgers wrote: »

Not a proper Irish meltdown without Sexton missing touch

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

All I’ve heard is Burns miss touch, where’s the post on Sextons? Can’t see any.

Buer

I think we can all agree that we're really looking forward to Sexton returning for 80 minutes against Italy.

Yeah_Right

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Yeah we do, god Sexton hasn’t been any better than the other options at 10 yet he doesn’t get anywhere near the same criticism when he ****s up. You mean missing touch and one misplaced pass? You forget god Sexton missed touch aswell sweetie solid professionals are better than Sexton right now but the main point is if Ireland want to play an expansive game plan they are better playing a 10 suited to that (Burns) than god Sexton who does nothing except stop any semblance on an attacking play.

You generally make some good points and back up your arguments but that post comes across as juvenile and pathetic. I agree that Sexton should be fazed out. Start him on the bench when he's fit. I'd like to see Burns get a decent run of games. I think he is the most like Carbury who is the obvious heir.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

If we lose they get 100% of the blame

If we win people will wait until they screw up and if they do we will say they aren’t test standard and should be dropped.

A narrative has been created so it doesn’t matter what happens in reality.

I honestly don't think this is true. I posted this a few weeks ago where you said similar about RB getting the blame for the England game. I don't really see how it's changed much at all.

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think Ross Byrne was entirely to blame against England. I also don't think he had a particularly good game.

And it's possible to think both of those things while also thinking that Burns is probably ahead of him at the moment, but not discounting him in future.

I really don't see the big deal.

mfceiling

Teferi wrote: »

If anything, the criticism of Sexton's performances come from him not hitting his standards anymore, which is higher than most players.

The unfortunate thing is Johnny isn't getting any younger or any better. Yes he's the best we have at the minute but time waits for no man.

We can cry all we want about Billy Burns or Ross Byrne not being international standard but at the minute that's where we are.

We can talk up Harry Byrne or Ben Healy but all we have to go on is a few decent games in the Pro 14. Potential? That's exactly it. Potential. Loads of players have had potential and never kicked on so I'll hold off on where these lads may end up.

Every team (probably bar NZ) will go through periods where a few players may be decent pros but not genuine world class. You suck it up, you play to your strengths and try to minimize your weaknesses.

That's where we are at the minute in Ireland.

UAEguy2020

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

There is all the evidence of selection of those three players. As development, or as substitute selections, and as starters when injuries required. All three played big games and crucial roles in them. They were the permanent squad members when available. It no narrative. They are the facts of IRFU selections.

That’s called conservatism, Irish rugby 101.

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

I think we can all agree that we're really looking forward to Sexton returning for 80 minutes against Italy.

I mean, they as may well bring Hayes back.

Right, Buer?

UAEguy2020

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You generally make some good points and back up your arguments but that post comes across as juvenile and pathetic. I agree that Sexton should be fazed out. Start him on the bench when he's fit. I'd like to see Burns get a decent run of games. I think he is the most like Carbury who is the obvious heir.

That I would agree with, what I’m against is Sexton being hailed as a god when he has performed well enough to deserve it.