Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Buer

thomond2006 wrote: »

I mean, they as may well bring Hayes back.

Right, Buer?

At outhalf?

He might be better there than he was at tighthead.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

I honestly don't think this is true. I posted this a few weeks ago where you said similar about RB getting the blame for the England game. I don't really see how it's changed much at all.

It’s completely true though.

eagle eye

UAEguy2020 wrote:

Is that based on anything relevant or just reputation?

It's based on the eye test, having watched him for Ulster on many occasions.

UAEguy2020

mfceiling wrote: »

The unfortunate thing is Johnny isn't getting any younger or any better. Yes he's the best we have at the minute but time waits for no man.

We can cry all we want about Billy Burns or Ross Byrne not being international standard but at the minute that's where we are.

We can talk up Harry Byrne or Ben Healy but all we have to go on is a few decent games in the Pro 14. Potential? That's exactly it. Potential. Loads of players have had potential and never kicked on so I'll hold off on where these lads may end up.

Every team (probably bar NZ) will go through periods where a few players may be decent pros but not genuine world class. You suck it up, you play to your strengths and try to minimize your weaknesses.

That's where we are at the minute in Ireland.

We allowed this to happen by being conservative, we had chances to give these players game time to improve but we insisted in putting all our eggs in the basket of a 36 year old being fit...smart plan!

thomond2006

Buer wrote: »

At outhalf?

He might be better there than he was at tighthead.

With Bernard Jackman at 9. Bueriful!

Natterjack from Kerry

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

We allowed this to happen by being conservative, we had chances to give these players game time to improve but we insisted in putting all our eggs in the basket of a 36 year old being fit...smart plan!

As explained, we had 4 eggs in the basket.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

So I've provided evidence for my argument, and instead of you providing evidence for your argument, you want me to provide more evidence??

No it’s evidence proving my point. What you are criticizing Byrne of you also get from Sexton.

Do you even watch the matches?

eagle eye

UAEguy2020 wrote:

Burns is far better at taking the ball to the line and it feels while things may not be relaxing he might actually make a try happen. Our backline looks totally rudderless and I’m starting to think Sexton may be the issue in our stifled backline.

Burns only looks like that because of his scrum half, he gets a little more room because Cooney is so good at breaking the line.
Ross Byrne is far and away the next best option to Sexton. It's nearly as big of a gap between him and the rest as it is between Sexton and him.

LuckyLloyd

aloooof wrote: »

So I’ll take it you’ve no idea when the last time we failed to sell out a 6 Nations game is.

As an aside, if you’re willing to be so disparaging that you’re prepared to call the team the “Vodafone Greens”, why do you bother watching them??

Well I bother watching for the same reasons as most of us here do - I've been watching them our whole lives. I don't like the marketing apparatus around the team or the match day experience in the Aviva, but that's been done to death in other threads.

I'm frustrated more than anything else with the whole thing at present. After two bitterly disappointing World Cup exits in succession, we seem to be dying a slow death in this world cup cycle thus far. As I've said before, I don't really blame Farrell individually (he is under pressure to keep his job) or the players themselves (they are ageing but they're trying). But the rut we have got ourselves in is as bad as it has been in a long time.

I feel tomorrow could be a rough day out and this tournament could get away from us. That said, we simply have to take positives from distributing competitive experience around the playing pool when we aren't good enough to win the tournament in the first place. It's all we're going to have the next couple of years.

prawnsambo

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No it’s evidence proving my point. What you are criticizing Byrne of you also get from Sexton.

Do you even watch the matches?

Again with this?

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Again, as per usual, the conversation is utterly fixated on Sexton. People are obsessed with him and getting him out of the team far more than actually assessing the other options based on the body of evidence available. And nobody is actually providing evidence from the other candidates of their recent form which warrants test inclusion.

Sexton isn't the core issue. It's the performances of those behind him. The notion that if you keep playing someone at test level, they'll become test level players is exceptionally simplistic. We've seen Burns and Byrne at outhalf in green recently. They looked mediocre and, whilst there was a spark from Burns once or twice, they absolutely did not look like guys who were ready or deserving of top level test time.

Anyone who has been watching these guys for their provinces in the past six weeks will know their form isn't good. Carty has been very inconsistent. Burns gave a shocker against Leinster and mediocre showing against Munster. Ross Byrne has played 27 minutes at outhalf in almost 2 months. His last start at 10 was against Northampton, an average showing which he wasn't due to start either.

These guys aren't stepping up at provincial level and demanding game time for Ireland. That's their problem. Not some notion that guys in their mid or late twenties will suddenly transform into test starters simply because they play in them.

This exactly.

It's hardly like Sexton is interfering with game time for the other pretenders in their respected provinces. Ross Byrne is nowhere near good enough to push his spot, not like Carberry was before. You could say the last time he actually had an impact on a player being able to develop their game was when Carberry was pushed out to 15, but that's since been rectified with Munster taking him and smashing him into pieces to fit their 10 man rugby narrative.

LuckyLloyd

Buer wrote: »

Again, as per usual, the conversation is utterly fixated on Sexton. People are obsessed with him and getting him out of the team far more than actually assessing the other options based on the body of evidence available. And nobody is actually providing evidence from the other candidates of their recent form which warrants test inclusion.

Sexton isn't the core issue. It's the performances of those behind him. The notion that if you keep playing someone at test level, they'll become test level players is exceptionally simplistic. We've seen Burns and Byrne at outhalf in green recently. They looked mediocre and, whilst there was a spark from Burns once or twice, they absolutely did not look like guys who were ready or deserving of top level test time.

Anyone who has been watching these guys for their provinces in the past six weeks will know their form isn't good. Carty has been very inconsistent. Burns gave a shocker against Leinster and mediocre showing against Munster. Ross Byrne has played 27 minutes at outhalf in almost 2 months. His last start at 10 was against Northampton, an average showing which he wasn't due to start either.

These guys aren't stepping up at provincial level and demanding game time for Ireland. That's their problem. Not some notion that guys in their mid or late twenties will suddenly transform into test starters simply because they play in them.

I think it's possible to agree Sexton is demonstrably better than the other players in his position and he still should no longer be selected.

I don't know think Burns / Byrne / Carthy and whoever else give us a better chance of winning games this weekend, but I'm fairly certain they will be the only option in 2023. The inflection point where the likes of Byrne is just a better option is coming even if it isn't quite there yet.

I personally think Sexton would be perfect to have on the bench to bring on in games for the last 20 minutes where we're still in it. And keep going with that for as long as it makes sense. If it is still making sense in the summer of 2023 ****ing brilliant!

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No it’s evidence proving my point. What you are criticizing Byrne of you also get from Sexton.

Do you even watch the matches?

Ok, you've exhausted my patience with this nonsense. Enjoy the match.

prawnsambo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think it's possible to agree Sexton is demonstrably better than the other players in his position and he still should no longer be selected.

I don't know think Burns / Byrne / Carthy and whoever else give us a better chance of winning games this weekend, but I'm fairly certain they will be the only option in 2023. The inflection point where the likes of Byrne is just a better option is coming even if it isn't quite there yet.

I personally think Sexton would be perfect to have on the bench to bring on in games for the last 20 minutes where we're still in it. And keep going with that for as long as it makes sense. If it is still making sense in the summer of 2023 ****ing brilliant!

If there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that we can't be sure of this. Two years is a long time in rugby and we've seen how top players can be fast-tracked time and time again. Every year for the last five years at least, this has happened on more than one occasion.

.ak

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

No it’s evidence proving my point. What you are criticizing Byrne of you also get from Sexton.

Do you even watch the matches?

MOD: You were literally warned about this an hour ago. This is supposed to be an inclusive and welcoming community forum - we don't need snarky/back handed comments like this thank you.

Improve the quality of your posting or you can sit out posting for the match week.

LuckyLloyd

sydthebeat wrote: »

So now that tomorrow we don't have Murray or Sexton playing, we should win yeah???
Isn't that how its supposed to go?

So two questions.
If we win, obviously by playing well, do we keep JGP and Billy B for the rest of the tournament.... Even though they aren't some fans preferred choice.

If we lose, and lose badly, do we bring Murray and sexton back in for the rest of the tournament?

Or do we give summer and autumn a miss and go directly to Casey and Harry Byrne for time immemorial??

We weren't winning anyway. We haven't been winning tough games for nearly two and a half years now.

Win or lose, Sexton and Murray should be given the rest of the tournament off imo.

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I personally think Sexton would be perfect to have on the bench to bring on in games for the last 20 minutes where we're still in it. And keep going with that for as long as it makes sense. If it is still making sense in the summer of 2023 ****ing brilliant!

I'd love if that was a realistic option Lloyd but Sexton is too injury prone to have on the bench. You either start him or don't have him there.

LuckyLloyd

prawnsambo wrote: »

If there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that we can't be sure of this. Two years is a long time in rugby and we've seen how top players can be fast-tracked time and time again. Every year for the last five years at least, this has happened on more than one occasion.

Okay, that's fair. And we need to have high hopes on the younger players.

I think though, we can be reasonably confident Murray and Sexton won't be our best pairing in 2023. And if we're wrong we can bring them back.

prawnsambo

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Okay, that's fair. And we need to have high hopes on the younger players.

I think though, we can be reasonably confident Murray and Sexton won't be our best pairing in 2023. And if we're wrong we can bring them back.

Absolutely. There's still hope that Carbery can maintain fitness for a good spell and in the meantime other young lads get developed to the required standard.

irishbucsfan

I know absence makes the heart grow fonder but Carbery has his own questions to answer before we should be assuming he's going to be a starter at 10 for Ireland for any great amount of time.

Same is true (more true) for all the other options beyond Sexton, but I feel like people see this as a temporary problem that he will solve when that is not really certain at all.

Yeah_Right

The biggest question about this weekend's game, when will Awec put up the match thread?

irishbucsfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The biggest question about this weekend's game, when will Awec put up the match thread?

Absent Without Even Caring

mfceiling

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

We allowed this to happen by being conservative, we had chances to give these players game time to improve but we insisted in putting all our eggs in the basket of a 36 year old being fit...smart plan!

You didn't even bother reading my post.

We could have given Burns and Byrne 20 games each and it would make no difference.
Neither will become world class. They will be good solid players and will give it their all but they will never be at Johnny's level regardless of how many games they play.

Must love hardship

Cooney and h byrne involved in the captains run and will be with the squad tomorrow.

Sanjuro

Cooney and H. Byrne into the wider squad as cover.

Quantum Baloney

Ah lads it will be a fascinating game. Will be very interesting to see how Billy Burns holds up. They obviously rate him in camp and it'll tell us a lot if he can makes amends tomorrow. Sexton was phenomenal but his passing game was not inspired last week, he is getting credit for things he doesn't always do very well anymore. Would still have him as no.1 for next while though. We will be wiser on so much tomorrow evening.

Podge_irl

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

That I would agree with, what I’m against is Sexton being hailed as a god when he has performed well enough to deserve it.

Seeing as you are so fond of evidence, I presume you have some of this?

UAEguy2020

.ak wrote: »

MOD: You were literally warned about this an hour ago. This is supposed to be an inclusive and welcoming community forum - we don't need snarky/back handed comments like this thank you.

Improve the quality of your posting or you can sit out posting for the match week.

I’ll just rest my case so as it’s been made and proven.

Natterjack from Kerry

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I’ll just rest my case so as it’s been made and proven.

Proven what ? While performance may be subjective, can you at least provide the evidence of Sexton being hailed as a god ?

molloyjh

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Proven what ? While performance may be subjective, can you at least provide the evidence of Sexton being hailed as a god ?

Of course not, because it never happened. I've nonidea why people continue to engage when we all know that it goes absolutely nowhere. Crazy statements with nothing backing them up is never a good sign!