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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #31832
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894785#Comment_121894785

    jesus christ, the man literally says he knew of jack and he was very impressed by him.... but keep trying to prop up your mates narrative as best as you can. plus ca change



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    #31833
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894785#Comment_121894785

    How could he have seen much of him in action for Munster or seen footage of him when the guy basically hadn't played for Munster at that point?



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    #31834
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894396#Comment_121894396

    Players have gotten injured and retired not form



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    #31835
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894791#Comment_121894791

    The response always trotted out is that it is a function of the sponsorship with Aviva. The A game vs NZ XV presumably was in the RDS as Ireland had a match the next day and that is the only way the national coaches could be remotely involved?

    I'd agree that, in Nov at least, they should definitely aim to move one game elsewhere. There are limited options for stadiums with the level of corporate hospitality that they will want though.



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    #31836
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,454 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894572#Comment_121894572

    If he had, he should certainly have considered going. A couple of years playing regularly could have done him a world of good (or not).



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    #31837
    fitz
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 8,114 ✭✭✭fitz


    There's some amount of revisionism going on here. I seem to recall when Catt mentioned in November 2022 that Crowley had called him a year before for info on how Ireland were doing things, the reaction was overwhelmingly positive that Crowley was being proactive and ambitious. I don't remember anyone at the time on here or elsewhere saying anything about why the national coaches weren't already giving him work ons, and nor sure there have been, tbh...it was too early for that in 2021, regardless of ROG's interest.

    It seems like people are just taking umberage now based on how Crowley has started to fulfil some of his potential, and using that as a standard to retrospectively apply to what the coaches should have been doing 3 years ago.

    Crowley's call showed his ambition and focus on where he wanted to get to, and that he's got the kind of determination we'd associate with Sexton. Great to see in an academy graduate, and I remember thinking more of him at the time when Catt talked about it. But trying to paint it as him being ignored by coaches he didn't yet have a direct working relationship with is just barking mad, imo.



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    #31838
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894814#Comment_121894814

    I only ever wish for bad things to happen to phog, and I want that on record.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894816#Comment_121894816

    He had an u20s Six Nations tournament (albeit curtailed), and whatever else motivated ROG to try sign him, at the very least. But taking a step back, I'm not pinning anything specifically on Catt here. Comms between the senior side and fringe/promising players takes a team of staff. And there's very good evidence that things have improved a lot since late 2021 (EI Tour, developmental inclusions this 6N, etc).



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    #31839
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,311 ✭✭✭✭phog


    There's a few people either missing the point here.

    The point is Mike Catt shouldn't be sitting around waiting on a call from a ballsy young fello, he should be tracking his development, sending out "work ons" to players.

    Ignore the province, the player, etc, what do the national coaches do between international windows.

    I asked today (someone decided to hijack the comment) when was the last time we've seen the national coaches at a provincial game outside of Dublin



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    #31840
    Ben Bailey
    Registered Users Posts: 664 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894153#Comment_121894153

    One Winners medal each from the same competition (in all it's iterations).

    Weir : Glasgow Pro12 2014-15

    Russell : as above

    Healy : Munster Pro14 2022-23

    Ahh, the heady heights of pro sport ..



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    #31841
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894922#Comment_121894922

    I asked today (someone decided to hijack the comment) when was the last time we've seen the national coaches at a provincial game outside of Dublin

    In context, it hardly matters as they wouldn't have seen Crowley playing.

    It is impossible for anyone in the national coaching sphere to be sending out "work ons" to a player who is not playing in matches that they can see. At that point in time the Munster academy coaches, and provincial coaches, were all that mattered to Crowley. People are setting completely unrealistic expectation on what the national senior coaching panel should be doing. Do you expect them to be watching video of academy training sessions or something?



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    #31842
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,857 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894463#Comment_121894463

    He's essentially back in "his" place in the pecking order. I would agree that he could feel a bit aggrieved this week, but I don't agree about last week. McCloskey is never going to be on a bench in a 6-2, you need a player like Frawley there to make that work (albeit, I don't like it and I don't think it worked).



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    #31843
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894957#Comment_121894957

    People are setting completely unrealistic expectation on what the national senior coaching panel should be doing.

    id just put that down to a lack of knowledge of the roles and responsibilities of the set up of the IRFU.

    The idea that the senior coaches dont talk to the u20s coaches (who is responsible for that pathway from age grade to senior anyway!) is simply people having an amateurish understanding of a professional set up. You can be guaranteed that the stats and analysis officers have a dossier on all the age grade players coming through the national set up. Anyone who doubts this can read todays article on Eoin Toolan and the work he was he was doing for Kurt McQuilkin as IRFU High Performance coach.



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    #31844
    phog
    Registered Users Posts: 24,311 ✭✭✭✭phog


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894957#Comment_121894957

    Not sure why you're making this out to be about Crowley


    The original question never mentioned him.

    Surely, it's a good thing for players & provincial coaches and even fans to have the national coaches attend a few games in the regions.

    Are they that busy week in, week out , when there are no national games happening or in the immediate future



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    #31845
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894846#Comment_121894846

    Tbh, I think Ravenhill would be a perfect candidate. Munster do a good job of getting invitational sides down (which is something I always look forward to), and the U20's games in Cork have been pretty well received, so Ravenhill would seem to be a good fit for a game to me.



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    #31846
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,296 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894821#Comment_121894821

    Larmour, Carbery, Byrne, Conan, Stockdale, Cooney, McCloskey etc would all argue with you

    So would Earls, Conway etc who had been dropped due to form.

    As Big Joe is playing this year who did he replace?



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    #31847
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895034#Comment_121895034

    Off the top of my head stockdale was injury as was byrne both earls and conway where injuries carbery also I think less sure on that one. Was conan a starter under farrell (didnt doris replace cj) or larmor? Has cooney ever even made an extended squad? Mcloskey was only in due to multiplr injuries

    Joe came in for ryan alright



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    #31848
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895011#Comment_121895011

    The counter discussion has ranged from gross straw man/non sequitur:

    I hope they've learned their lesson and are in regular contact with Tony Butler now.

    to snide ad hominem:

    "Like, who would track this sort of thing? Seems a bit stalkery."

    Some half-decent discussion emerged, but even it was marred by inconsistency, i.e.:

    The Ireland coaches have far too much on their plate to be keeping an eye on players who essentially have not yet played senior rugby.

    which completely conflicts with your point on there being dossiers full of data and efficient communication across the coaching hierarchy.

    non sequitur, ad hominem and inconsistency... as close as you can get to a Holy Trinity of emotional defensiveness, imo.



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    #31849
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    If you're going to counter my point, counter my point.

    If those other posters wish to debate with me, they are more than welcome to.

    Or, like phog, just make stuff up in your head and create another strawman victim



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    #31850
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895191#Comment_121895191

    Noble of you to request your points be addressed.

    Slightly related topic. Was this you?

     but keep trying to prop up your mates narrative as best as you can. plus ca change



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    #31851
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895234#Comment_121895234

    Lol

    That wasn't a request



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    #31852
    square ball
    Registered Users Posts: 395 ✭✭square ball


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894957#Comment_121894957

    I would expect them to be keeping major tabs on someone like Crowley when the current 10 was so close to the end of his career. Only a handful of players ahead of him and he showed his potential at under 20 level. They should have been identifying and addressing any weaknesses in the game of possible replacements when they knew JS was retiring after the World Cup in collaboration with club coaches.

    The coaches should have an in depth knowledge of all aspects of a players game if there is even a chance the player may be called up the the senior squad.



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    #31853
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭OldRio


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121894673#Comment_121894673

    You genuinely read 'travelling fans as away fans'?

    OK.



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    #31854
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,296 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895120#Comment_121895120

    So to cut this short, you admit the comment that players don't get dropped for form is wrong?

    FYI Cooney was on bench in first game for Farrell.



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    #31855
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,296 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895630#Comment_121895630

    H Byrne, R Byrne, Carty, Billy Burns, Sexton, Ginger Scot, Carbery off top of head who was ahead of him at the start of last season. You could even say Flannery at Ulster as well as he was in number 2 slot

    How many players do you want them to monitor?

    THe coach's should spend the time on the player in and aroun the squad, working with them and making them better. Not every single player who might get called up in the future. That is unrealistic and would spread them too thin leaving the actual squad players losing out



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    #31856
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,583 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895630#Comment_121895630

    what makes you think they weren't or dont?



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    #31857
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,621 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Its actually amazing Munster still exists given how clearly every single person involved in the IRFU is out to get them.



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    #31858
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895919#Comment_121895919

    No i dont im not sure how you read that



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    #31859
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895975#Comment_121895975

    Patronising comments aside any fan base would be annoyed in this situation



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    #31860
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭nerd69


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121895942#Comment_121895942

    We have 4 teams to monitor not multiple leagues.



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    #31861
    Clo-Clo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,296 ✭✭✭Clo-Clo


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121896182#Comment_121896182

    Who said they have to monitor multiple leagues?



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