Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Lost Ormond

Louis Friend wrote: »

They’re imports though. It’s disappointing to see them representing 1/3 of the team.

Theyre nowhere near the same though and its a very important distinction.

Must love hardship wrote: »

In my mind a Project players is the IRFU term for uncapped overseas players, signed by provinces with the long term goal of making them Irish international.

Both Herring and burns have Irish grandparents but are overseas players signed by ulster with the long term goal of making them Irish internationals so they fit the term project player.

France have only 3 overseas players in the 6 nations squad. . England have only 2 born overseas.

Herring and Burns have been available to play for Ireland from birth so by that are completely different to Stander, Aki. It helped Ulster that they were irish eligible from the beginning and didnt count towards any of the NIQ quotas so they dont at all fit project player term

Deleted User wrote: »

I have absolutely no doubt that the reason Ringrose doesn't continue to kick is because other players spend more of their training time practicing kicking to the point of consistent accuracy and he doesn't want the various muscle strains that come with that to impact his game.

Taking an extra 50 kicks a week isn't cost free on the body.

It shoudnt have to be the case. Of course there is a fair bit of work involved to maintain being a good standard kicker but its a hard job and being someone who can place kick well is worth its wait in gold and we shouldnt waste someone who has a clear talent at it because they wont be doing it every single week in games

nerd69

Must love hardship wrote: »

In my mind a Project players is the IRFU term for uncapped overseas players, signed by provinces with the long term goal of making them Irish international.

Both Herring and burns have Irish grandparents but are overseas players signed by ulster with the long term goal of making them Irish internationals so they fit the term project player.


France have only 3 overseas players in the 6 nations squad. . England have only 2 born overseas.

Scotland have 16

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

But Sexton was actually good at one stage.

We should hang out.

Must love hardship

nerd69 wrote: »

Scotland have 16

Yeah 16 in scotland Wales 12 and Italy 10.

A lot of the Welsh ones are born in England.

Scots have a fair mix of English nz and South African with a few French, Canadian and even namibia

Louis Friend

I disagree.

Whilst technically they’re different, neither a ‘project player’ nor a ‘Granny Rule player’ are within the spirit of what we want to see.

At the end of the day, they’re mercenaries whose own countries didn’t fancy them and who felt they could earn more here in Ireland.

If a Billy Burns or Bundi Aki is 10% better than his Irish equivalent, we should always pick the Irish equivalent.

Assuming that they continue to be a fact of life, bangers from overseas should be substantially better than what we have here already before we consider deploying them.

A perfect example is that Jean Kleyn fella. He should never have played for Ireland.

But someone like Isa Nacewa, if he’d have been an option, we should have wrapped him in cotton wool and a green jersey.

But the Kleyns and Burns of this world? When in doubt, keep them out!

nerd69

Must love hardship wrote: »

Yeah 16 in scotland Wales 12 and Italy 10.

A lot of the Welsh ones are born in England.

Scots have a fair mix of English nz and South African with a few French, Canadian and even namibia

France requires all players to carry a French passport. Not a bad rule.

Take out people who qualify through parents or grandparents and ireland have 2.

nerd69

Louis Friend wrote: »

I disagree.

Whilst technically they’re different, neither a ‘project player’ nor a ‘Granny Rule player’ are within the spirit of what we want to see.

At the end of the day, they’re mercenaries whose own countries didn’t fancy them and who felt they could earn more here in Ireland.

If a Billy Burns or Bundi Aki is 10% better than his Irish equivalent, we should always pick the Irish equivalent.

If they’re a fact of life, bangers from overseas should be substantially better than what we have here already.

Bit harsh a lad in england with irish parents could easily be an ireland supporter. Heaslip and luke mcgrath where born abroad. Ulltan dillane was.

Aki,lowe and stander are a different story for sure but I'd be slow enough to criticize for parentage particularly when a lot of the teams in question are not noticably better than us

Must love hardship

Louis Friend wrote: »

I disagree.


If a Billy Burns or Bundi Aki is 10% better than his Irish equivalent, we should always pick the Irish equivalent.

Assuming that they continue to be a fact of life, bangers from overseas should be substantially better than what we have here already before we consider deploying them.
!

100% agree. If they are significantly better great play them.

But if they are of a similar level we should go with the player who came up through the ranks it naturally develops more players.

I also think its poor that ireland had replaced a 37 year old hooker with a foreign import. We had 10 or 12 years to identify and coach a number of suitable replacements and we stumped for an overseas player.

Nusofora probably gave himself a raise on the back of that one.

Louis Friend

nerd69 wrote: »

Bit harsh a lad in england with irish parents could easily be an ireland supporter. Heaslip and luke mcgrath where born abroad. Ulltan dillane was.

Aki,lowe and stander are a different story for sure but I'd be slow enough to criticize for parentage particularly when a lot of the teams in question are not noticably better than us

Fair enough, but I’d draw a massive distinction between someone like ROG, who was actually born in San Diego, or Jamie Heaslip, who I think was born in the Middle East, both while their Dads were working overseas, and someone who’s qualifying to play for Ireland via the back door of an Irish grandparent or the residency rule.

My big issue with project players or the likes of Burns is that we’re not their first choice. It was only when their own countries said “nah” that they thought about playing for us.

The green jersey means something, and giving it to other nations’ cast-offs leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Must love hardship

nerd69 wrote: »

Take out people who qualify through parents or grandparents and ireland have 2.

5 in the original 6 nations panel.
3 in the squad for sunday

stephen_n

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Theyre nowhere near the same though and its a very important distinction.

Yes indeed, in the case of Burns at least, he has spent far less time contributing to Irish rugby and being part of the community here.

Brewster

More great analysis of the challenges likely to face Ireland tomorrow on the last few pages of the thread.......... not !

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

I disagree.

Whilst technically they’re different, neither a ‘project player’ nor a ‘Granny Rule player’ are within the spirit of what we want to see.

At the end of the day, they’re mercenaries whose own countries didn’t fancy them and who felt they could earn more here in Ireland.

If a Billy Burns or Bundi Aki is 10% better than his Irish equivalent, we should always pick the Irish equivalent.

Assuming that they continue to be a fact of life, bangers from overseas should be substantially better than what we have here already before we consider deploying them.

A perfect example is that Jean Kleyn fella. He should never have played for Ireland.

But someone like Isa Nacewa, if he’d have been an option, we should have wrapped him in cotton wool and a green jersey.

But the Kleyns and Burns of this world? When in doubt, keep them out!

That is ridiculously hypocritical. Have some conviction.

"I'm against players who qualify on residency, they're rejects, mercenaries, keep them out, they shouldnt be near a green jersey......unless they're really good, then get them into the team quick."

irishbucsfan

Louis Friend wrote: »

I disagree.

Whilst technically they’re different, neither a ‘project player’ nor a ‘Granny Rule player’ are within the spirit of what we want to see.

I wouldn't assume everyone is as xenophobic as you are

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

If a Billy Burns or Bundi Aki is 10% better than his Irish equivalent, we should always pick the Irish equivalent.

Isn't this the very definition of racism?

lawrencesummers

Paul Warwick should have played for Ireland

Louis Friend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I wouldn't assume everyone is as xenophobic as you are

I don’t think you understand xenophobia.

Louis Friend

TRC10 wrote: »

Isn't this the very definition of racism?

Is that a joke?

Discriminating against Billy Burns and Bundi Aki is racism?!

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

Is that a joke?

Discriminating against Billy Burns and Bundi Aki is racism?!

When we're fully within our right to select them, they're good enough to be selected, but not selecting them because of where they are born. That is the definition of racism my friend.

I'm against project players btw.

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

My big issue with project players or the likes of Burns is that we’re not their first choice. It was only when their own countries said “nah” that they thought about playing for us.

.

Should guys like Tim Nanai-Williams and Kahn Fotuali'i (both born and grew up in NZ) not have been allowed play for Samoa because ultimately their own country "said nah" .

I also find it hilarious how you're so far above selecting imports, unless they're really good. You really want it both ways don't you hahaha.

.ak

Louis Friend wrote: »

I disagree.

Whilst technically they’re different, neither a ‘project player’ nor a ‘Granny Rule player’ are within the spirit of what we want to see.

At the end of the day, they’re mercenaries whose own countries didn’t fancy them and who felt they could earn more here in Ireland.

If a Billy Burns or Bundi Aki is 10% better than his Irish equivalent, we should always pick the Irish equivalent.

Assuming that they continue to be a fact of life, bangers from overseas should be substantially better than what we have here already before we consider deploying them.

A perfect example is that Jean Kleyn fella. He should never have played for Ireland.

But someone like Isa Nacewa, if he’d have been an option, we should have wrapped him in cotton wool and a green jersey.

But the Kleyns and Burns of this world? When in doubt, keep them out!

What’s this “we” malarkey?

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

When we're fully within our right to select them, they're good enough to be selected, but not selecting them because of where they are born. That is the definition of racism my friend.

I'm against project players btw.

I feel a Zebo / Sexton debate coming on....

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

I feel a Zebo / Sexton debate coming on....

Zebo's non selection has nothing to do with place of birth/nationality. It couldn't be more different.

irishbucsfan

Louis Friend wrote: »

I don’t think you understand xenophobia.

Oh, I absolutely do.

You don't want players selected who are from another country. Xenophobia is a prejudice against people from other countries. I can't explain this any clearer.

Louis Friend

TRC10 wrote: »

When we're fully within our right to select them, they're good enough to be selected, but not selecting them because of where they are born. That is the definition of racism my friend.

I'm against project players btw.

I hate to tell you, but, surprisingly, racism is discrimination against someone based on their race.

The last time I checked, Billy Burns was white!

Louis Friend

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh, I absolutely do.

You don't want players selected who are from another country. Xenophobia is a prejudice against people from other countries. I can't explain this any clearer.

Yes, I don’t want players who aren’t from Ireland.

That isn’t xenophobia.

stephen_n

Louis Friend wrote: »

I hate to tell you, but, surprisingly, racism is discrimination against someone based on their race.

The last time I checked, Billy Burns was white!

Dictionary definition.
Race, the idea that the human species is divided into distinct groups on the basis of inherited physical and behavioral differences. Genetic studies in the late 20th century refuted the existence of biogenetically distinct races, and scholars now argue that “races” are cultural interventions reflecting specific attitudes and beliefs that were imposed on different populations in the wake of western European conquests beginning in the 15th century.

Louis Friend wrote: »

Yes, I don’t want players who aren’t from Ireland.

That isn’t xenophobia.

Dictionary definition of xenophobia

Xenophobia is “fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign.”

Looks like you’re wrong on both counts, or maybe misinformed?

irishbucsfan

Louis Friend wrote: »

Yes, I don’t want players who aren’t from Ireland.

That isn’t xenophobia.

That's exactly what it is

Tommysocks11

Will people please now forget about burns and gibson park, all fecken day, theres 13 other players and other areas of the game to talk about

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

Yes, I don’t want players who aren’t from Ireland.

That isn’t xenophobia.

Define "from ireland"

The issue with that argument is everyone has they're own idea of what it means to be "irish"

And you don't want all players to be from ireland. You want all players to be from ireland unless they're really good. Which is what you said.