Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122037876#Comment_122037876

I'm provincially agnostic, I support Leinster in Europe once everyone else is out and generally support the underdog or Connacht in interpros. I genuinely want see all 4 provinces improve and contribute to great Irish teams. In terms of spreading Leinster players around the country, its a good idea in theory but I agree it won't really solve any problems. Another point on this, if Ulster's back line had been playing in Leinster for the last 5 years I've no doubt several of them would be Ireland starters. Munster has improved somewhat in the last 18 months but the standard of coaching in both those provinces over the last decade has been miserable.

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040929#Comment_122040929

You said nobody had 9 players off the books before, but munster did for abt 8-10 years

Horan, hayes, Sheahan, Flannery, POC, DOC, Foley, Leamy, Wallace, Quinlan, Stringer, ROG

Fairly sure most of these players had CC during the noughties and mostly at the same time

Seemed to be about 25 dished out and Leinster would have had D'Arcy, BoD, Horgan, Dempsey, Hickie and OKelly on one, cannot think of anyone else who had one, Ulster had Best x 3, Trimble, Bowe, Humphreys, Young

The disparity wasnt there percentage wise but the actual number was

Jump_In_Jack

So, if each province has 45 senior players, and each province gets roughly 8 million for salaries, Connacht getting around 6 million, and Leinster will have 10 players outside of their salary budget, assuming coaches are paid roughly the same across the provinces, let’s say 1 million covers coaching salaries, that means Leinster will have 7 million to spend on 35 players, that’s an average of 200,000 per player, with 10 on double or treble that.

Munster and Ulster will have 7 million to spend on 44 players, so the average salary would be 159,000, plus one player getting double or treble that, Connacht will have 5 million on 44 players, so their average salary would be 114,000 plus one player on treble that.

It seems a ludicrous system.

The Centrally contracted players might miss half the season for their club, so the club should be paying for half of the average salary. For Leinster that would be 100,000 per CC, so 1 million, whereas for the other provinces that would be 80,000 per player, so just 80,000 for Munster and Ulster, and just 57,000 for Connacht.

That makes sense. The current model doesn’t.

I’d add that if a player gets injured while training or playing for Ireland there should be compensation paid to the club to reflect the number of games missed.

Or at least if 7 million for 45 players the average is 155,000, then half that is 77,500 per CC. Just means the average salary for the other 35 players drops from 200,000 to 178,000, still more than the other provinces, and would allow a couple of supplementary players if needed.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041577#Comment_122041577

You said nobody had 9 players off the books before, but munster did for abt 8-10 years

I literally didn't say this. It was another poster. The amount of times I've been misquoted at this point is beyond double-figures.

Your final point…

The disparity wasnt there percentage wise but the actual number was

…is the exact point I've been making all along.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041577#Comment_122041577

Horan, hayes, Sheahan, Flannery, POC, DOC, Foley, Leamy, Wallace, Quinlan, Stringer, ROG

All played for Ireland but I doubt they were all on CCs, unless you mean when all players were on IRFU contracts just as we went professional

Former Former Former

just for context.

The first season of Leo Cullen being in charge was 2015-16 and Lancaster arrived the following season.

The Ireland team for the 6N opener in 2016 featured five Leinster players, five Munster, three Ulster and two Connacht.

That’s under the same system we have now, with all the financial and population advantages that Leinster have today. The only thing that has changed is Leinster got their sh1t together and the others went backwards.

The current dominance didn’t happen by accident but it is neither inevitable nor unchangeable under the current system.

Whether the other provinces can manage it, that’s a bigger question.

phog

Murray Kinsella on IRFU contracts and funding the provinces

https://www.the42.ie/irfu-national-contracts-6359757-Apr2024/?utm_source=shortlink

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041896#Comment_122041896

Paywalled. Curious what the crux of it was?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041920#Comment_122041920

It's all in hand

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041920#Comment_122041920

Oh, it was free when I read it, pity I didn't screenshot it.

A lot of it already mentioned here but he said a review happened last year and there is already some changes, he also mentioned the PONIs and that the IRFU fund the academies in all 4 provinces

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041871#Comment_122041871

I think we'd agree Leinster got their sh1t together long before the 2015-16 season, and we're seeing the fruits of it now. I've said a number of times something akin to them deserving huge credit for that.

But if we also agree that the system is now in a place that was never intended or expected, it's perfectly reasonable for fans of other provinces to ask if something needs to be done, and not just leave it to the provinces. The IRFU also have a remit to the provinces.

I can't understand how some people can't understand that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042030#Comment_122042030

You keep saying the IRFU have a remit to the provinces as a way of passing the buck away from the responsibility of the provinces and back to the IRFU.

It is an incredibly frequent argument from Munster fans generally on almost any topic where Munster management themselves could be open to criticism.

How do you split/allocate responsibility for the identification and development of talent within a province between the provinces themselves and the IRFU?

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041920#Comment_122041920

Hope this works

https://we.tl/t-asikkSS8DR

Dubinusa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042030#Comment_122042030

I don't think there's anything that can be done short off, raiding Leinster and moving international players throughout the provinces. If the issue is who have CC contracted players. Doing this will bolster the other provinces and weaken Leinster. That's if the goal is to make things equitable.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042107#Comment_122042107

You're - again - misrepresenting what I'm saying.

I've said countless times the provinces have to do better. I literally have.

AND now with the significant imbalance in the CC's on a scale we haven't seen before, and which was likely never intended - yes, I think it's something the IRFU need to look at TOO.

We disagree on the latter. But stop misrepresenting what I'm saying on the former.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041920#Comment_122041920

The gist is, provinces will have to contribute to the CC’s. Unknown what percentage yet. Makes sense.

theVersatile

Donncha O'Callaghan talking a lot of sense re: the Barrett signing and Leinster's finance/schools structure etc on RTE.

Heaslip also being uncharacteristically sensical

Burkie1203

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041854#Comment_122041854

There was 16 CC in 2016 and 24 or 25 in 2006

Leinster had 7 max players on national duty, ulster too. Munster back then had 11-12 of the match day 22 and its not unreasonable to think they took up a similar number of the CC At the time

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042583#Comment_122042583

There's more chance that Reggie Corrigan has a National Contract than Frankie Sheahan but I'd assume neither of them had one

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042565#Comment_122042565

what did they say?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122040774#Comment_122040774

Which 9 did we have exactly? Or did you just make that up?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042030#Comment_122042030

I can't understand how some people can't understand that.

it’s not that I don’t understand your point, I just don’t agree with it.

The imbalance in CC allocation is the result of the disparity in player development, not the cause of it.




aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042932#Comment_122042932

I'm not debating the cause of it. I'm debating what ramifications it now may have going forward.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122042583#Comment_122042583

Not sure about your stats on this one but Leinster currently have 9 of the 12 CCs or 75%, by your own admission Munster never had more than about 50% of them and not without Leinster getting a fine share of them as well

custom_build

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122043106#Comment_122043106

Leinster currently have 8 of 13 central contracts, or 61%. Next year they may have 10 of 13, however there is talk of the provences paying towards the salaries of the centrally contracted players. This is a fair idea and is an effort to make the situation in the provances "less unequal". Crisis averted.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122043256#Comment_122043256

I'm not a fan of that idea to be honest. Central contracts come with rules (rightly so) and already indirectly cost the provinces as they are the ones that coach them.

The question often gets asked who would we take off a CC. I'd ask why do we have so few of them?

custom_build

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122043305#Comment_122043305

I think if there were more being handed out, the disparity between leinster and the other provences would be even greater.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122041105#Comment_122041105

Those were all relatively recent developments from Munster, which I've repeatedly said has improved.

The point is Munster underinvested during and coming out of their glory years, they naval gazed and felt the good times will keep on coming, and that directly led to their barren years of academy production and why the central contracts are currently so one sided and there is feeling of inequity.

The improvement in the Munster academy output since they got their act together, with some of the actions you mention, is clear evidence that they were a significant cause of the problem.

Foxtrol

Interesting to see if there is a mood change from doom and gloom with the great performance down in SA today from Munster and the wins across the board for the non-Leinster provinces - with the added bonus of Leinster getting spanked.

IRFU has a province in 1st, 3rd, and the other two are joint on points with a team in the playoffs, a single point behind the team in 6th.

In no time we'll be back to rage when the Leinster 'will never be caught' players 'undeservedly' make the Irish squad.

Rugbyf565

could we get Jordie Barrett to play for Ireland?