Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Bazzo

Wasn't overly impressed with Burns tbh. Thought Byrne did well enough when he was on to move up in the pecking order. The pack were pretty dominant which will have suited him but hardly to the level Leinster usually are. He looked like somebody had told him to stand 5 metres flatter than the flattest he thought he should stand.

Clegg

I worry that Farrell will revert back to Murray and Sexton for the Italy game. A win against either France or Wales would have eased pressure on him somewhat, but we're now desperate for any sort of victory.

Would love to see one of Casey or Harry Byrne at least come off on the bench for that. And Baird to finally make his debut. But that's not likely to happen now.

TRC10

France are a better team then Ireland, we lost by 2 points. That's not something to panic about.

I thought Farrell got the gameplan spot on in the first half. Largely, we kicked intelligently and we kicked well. Running into Shaun Edwards defense on the half way line is suicidal. Put up contestable kicks and pressure them that way.

But again we didnt come out after half time. That's been a theme under Farrell. That 20 minutes after the break is where we've lost the last 2 game after good first half performances. Then waking up when the game is already gone.

Sanjuro

If we don't show any more creativity in attack, Catt needs to be given his marching orders after the Six Nations so that a new attacking coach can come in over the rest of the year and start working on something... anything. I like Andy Farrell, and really want him to do well, but it's quite dispiriting watching us flounder after a couple of phases and I cant see that changing as things stand.

Scratchly

leakyboots wrote: »

I think it's hard to not agree that Lowe is costing us defensively. He's missed 6 out of 10 tackles in two games, turned over ball 5 times. As well as making poor reads (which worries me the most). Other teams will be licking their lips.

He's had some nice stuff going forward (Keenan cost him a try today) and some good clearances but I get the feeling if he was any other player on here he'd be slaughtered for his showing in the last two games.

Was surprised Farrell subbed Earls and not him, was it injury?

Lowe is getting slaughtered though. And the problem is he's somewhat of a scapegoat and replacing him won't solve everything. Because he's not the primary cause of the issues. There was a huge amount of missed tackles. 24 or something for Ireland today with 16 turnovers conceded. Its not all Lowe.

TRC10

Apart from that penalty, Billy Burns was fine today. His performance was always going to be put under ridiculous scrutiny after last week. So the claims that he played badly are just people jumping on whatever mistake he made because they were out for blood after last week. He didnt play spectacular, but he was fine.

Another thing in relation to Catt is how much Italy's attack has improved since he left.

UnknownSpecies

We've seen many examples of Henshaw, Ringrose and Lowe showing great vision with their running and excellent footwork in small spaces when they get the ball in broken play. But the during structured play, off set piece and first phase, it's quick pass, pass, pass with very little threat to the opposition line. We're getting depth, we're getting the ball at pace but any adavantge that brings is literally thrown away with early passing for the sake of passing. I'm still encouraged though because at least it's clear to see we have the talent in the back line, it just needs to click when putting them together.

Clegg

Our problems in attack aren't just centred around poor backs coaching. It's a squad wide issue that's affecting the forwards as well. We've a serious problem converting pressure to trys and points. We've scored two trys in two games and they've come from off the cuff brilliance from Henshaw and a lucky bounce for Kelleher.

If you go back to the England and France games a few months ago we see the same problem. Tons of effort from the forwards, but no rewards for their hard work. England were happy enough to cede a lot of possession because they knew our back play wasn't inventive enough and that they could smother us. That's exactly what happened. And against France it took a wonder try from Henshaw for us to actually get over their line.

Under Schmidt we were experts at retaining possession and relentlessly battering away at a defence until they crumbled and either conceded a penalty or a try. It was by no means pretty, but it was very effective. Our forwards simply aren't as well drilled in retaining possession near the line. So now when we actually get into the 22 we've two problems. Our forwards may lose the ball and our backs can't open up a defence.

I've been a fan of Farrell's willingness to give new players a chance, but we've seen a deterioration in our attacking play which was already going downhill in Schmidt's final season. Catt must take a lot of the blame, but as head coach I assume Farrell sets out the attacking vision for the side. It's just not good enough.

cantwbr1

One thing on the OH debate, it was good to see the confidence of RB when we got the penalty on the 10m line. He knew he would make it and if France had infringed at any point in the last few phases you’d be very happy that he would nail it

Niallof9

briandebum wrote: »

You're comfortable watching that dross for the next 2 years?

Farrells selections have been dubious at best, our backline seems setup to run into the opposition line. We kicked a lot, but for pretty much the entire second half couldn't escape from our own half. There was absolutely no variance in that kicking, which made it incredibly easy for the French. Where were the cross kicks or a chip over the rush defence?

The problem for me is that Farrell is a continuation coach from a setup, which by the end of it's tenure, was past it's sell-by date. You're never going to get anything radically different in that situation.

Exactly this and the reality of our situation keeps getting pushed further and further back. Even if we finish second last we'll still have the usual suspects saying "wait and see", give him time.

I suspect out of blind loyalty and stupidity Farrell will get till the WC. I mean IRFU, smartest guys in the room, lost McCall and even a back office guy like O'Shea while signing a failed English management team to Ireland and provinces. I see them digging in.

I'd bring in Leo if as expected this goes tits up.

Its all so depressing and predictable.

Farrell ****ed up in November its as simple as that. ROG is saying playing the two young lads against Italy. He had that chance three times in November.

Clegg

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Another thing in relation to Catt is how much Italy's attack has improved since he left.

I was thinking about that too. Initially I thought Catt deserved some credit there as Italy were starting to play some good attacking rugby during his tenure as backs coach. But since he left they've gotten far better. Now I wonder if he got lucky and was coach at a time when a gifted young set of backs were coming onto the scene.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm intrigued to see how many minutes he'll get. JGP only came on quite late against Wales.

Aged wonderfully.

RugbyLover123

There’s not a hope Farrell plays Casey and HB against Italy. It will be back to Sexton and Murray. A loss against Italy and he is gone. Casey and HB may well be the future and light it up against Italy but definitely not as sure a thing as Sexton and Murray getting the result.

I’m not sure why people are so up in arms, I mean we’ve been blessed in the last 10 years with some of the best Irish teams/players there has been. We simple don’t have that at the moment, and with the injuries it’s even worse. Yeah our attack could be better but we are 4/5th best team in the competition with the current crop and injuries we currently have and that’s where we will finish.

Poorside

TRC10 wrote: »

Apart from that penalty, Billy Burns was fine today. His performance was always going to be put under ridiculous scrutiny after last week. So the claims that he played badly are just people jumping on whatever mistake he made because they were out for blood after last week. He didnt play spectacular, but he was fine.

No he was not fine, didn't get the backs moving at all, stood deep and took the ball standing still a few times,he is now a use when every single option is either dead or on crutches.

ClanofLams

Time for change.


Someone completely outside the Irish/provincial structure would be best. Scott Robertson would top my short list if available. Jamie Joseph another candidate. I know under contract etc (though not sure if Robertson signed new one, his last/current one was up at end of this super rugby season and didn’t see renewal announced) but we don’t know what clauses they might have in any case. Plenty of other possibilities too I’m sure.

A clean slate for all provincial players would go a long way towards reinvigorating the set up.

Louis Friend

Credit to Ross Byrne, he played well today. Calling and slotting that penalty was gutsy.

The more I think about it, the more I think that Farrell needs to be empowered to ditch the old guard.

There are guys in there who are the future...Keenan, Stockdale, Larmour, Ringrose, Henshaw, Harry Byrne, Ross Byrne, Doris, Leavy, Ryan, Furlong, Kelleher, Porter, etc.

Fans would get behind a team with a clear plan to compete at the World Cup in 2023.

There is no way a 38 year old Johnny Sexton should be playing at the World Cup. So dump him now.

Niallof9

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

There’s not a hope Farrell plays Casey and HB against Italy. It will be back to Sexton and Murray. A loss against Italy and he is gone. Casey and HB may well be the future and light it up against Italy but definitely not as sure a thing as Sexton and Murray getting the result.

I’m not sure why people are so up in arms, I mean we’ve been blessed in the last 10 years with some of the best Irish teams/players there has been. We simple don’t have that at the moment, and with the injuries it’s even worse. Yeah our attack could be better but we are 4/5th best team in the competition with the current crop and injuries we currently have and that’s where we will finish.

The last bit is a cop out, seeing how lauded the Leinster set up is etc.

None of the players in fairness, and thank god, would share your viewpoint.

People are up in arms with the lack of quality coaching, selection, planning etc.

The players lie mostly blameless in all this. We have an excellent core group. Unfortunately the players lack an ability to play whats in front of them after Joe's tenure and now it seems AF hasn;t got a clue how he wants to play. We were woeful with ball in hand today. Our offloading game in the right areas is non existent, still. If the Lions was picked 2moro, we possibly would have zero starters despite their quality.

And yeah the first point is true, and a disaster really. We'll have very little chance to build depth now. Again harking back to NOV, AF ****ed up royally.

And its history repeating itself. I'll bet my house we again have a 37 year old captain in the WC.

TRC10

Poorside wrote: »

No he was not fine, didn't get the backs moving at all, stood deep and took the ball standing still a few times,he is now a use when every single option is either dead or on crutches.

Such a convenient generic phrase to throw at him "didnt get the backs moving". I'm guessing you missed the part where we were a toes length away from scoring a brilliant try of a set play.

briandebum

TRC10 wrote: »

Such a convenient generic phrase to throw at him "didnt get the backs moving". I'm guessing you missed the part where we were a toes length away from scoring a brilliant try of a set play.

So a pre-rehearsed move is evidence of an outhalf playing well? I'm not sure Byrne had a good game either. Yes he made his kicks but in general play he stood so deep that when we tried to go wide we were miles behind the gainline.

I don't think all of our issues in attack can be put down to either of the outhalves to be honest.

TRC10

briandebum wrote: »

So a pre-rehearsed move is evidence of an outhalf playing well? I'm not sure Byrne had a good game either. Yes he made his kicks but in general play he stood so deep that when we tried to go wide we were miles behind the gainline.

I don't think all of our issues in attack can be put down to either of the outhalves to be honest.

I don't think people understand just how little space there is in international rugby. The people who want us to offload and play champagne rugby are the ones who will be complaining when we get smashed behind the gainline at the halfway by a Shaun Edwards defense in an era where the offside line is halfway down the ruck.

Piehead

Lowe was dreadful.
JGP was very poor.
Burns unlikely to appear in an Irish jersey again.
Strong pack even without Ryan - half backs completely unable to use any ball.
Far to much aimless up and unders and box kicking.
Game management non existent by either No 10.

Lost Ormond

Piehead wrote: »

Lowe was dreadful.
JGP was very poor.
Burns unlikely to appear in an Irish jersey again.
Strong pack even without Ryan - half backs completely unable to use any ball.
Far to much aimless up and unders and box kicking.
Game management non existent by either No 10.

Burns will certainly play for Ireland again. Would you have said same about Ross Byrne after some of his poor early tests? Or Sexton or ROG?
He wasnt helped by his 9 being poor and the game plan.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

I don't think people understand just how little space there is in international rugby. The people who want us to offload and play champagne rugby are the ones who will be complaining when we get smashed behind the gainline at the halfway by a Shaun Edwards defense in an era where the offside line is halfway down the ruck.

Nobody is saying that. Such a nonsense argument. People are looking for a small spark. Where have all the people saying it was clear we were improving our attacl? Now iys just excuses and how little space there is despite Ireland getting carved apart in key moments.

TelePaul

Piehead wrote: »

Lowe was dreadful.
JGP was very poor.
Burns unlikely to appear in an Irish jersey again.
Strong pack even without Ryan

I think I must have been watching a different game. Lowe's work rate was immense and based on the speed of ball delivery, I don't see why we'd be starting Murray again any time soon.

The pack are very strong, but our ability to score from set pieces and pick/jam isn't what it was, which is why our possession/points ratio is so low. We need to 're-learn' to play a passing game that sees backs break the gain line.

O'Gara in the aftermath lauded Gibson-Park and said he had a good game.

Interesting that so many people seem to have seen such different things on the pitch.

irishbucsfan

JGP was good alright. Incredible work rate to be making it to breakdowns so efficiently at 80 minutes as well.

Problem today wasn’t our half backs. Very possibly Ross Byrne cant play 5+ phase rugby against a defense like that but that’s what you leave yourself with if you start Burns and have to chase a lead.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

Nobody is saying that. Such a nonsense argument. People are looking for a small spark. Where have all the people saying it was clear we were improving our attacl? Now iys just excuses and how little space there is despite Ireland getting carved apart in key moments.

I agree our attack isnt good enough. But we are seeing tangible improvements in the fundamental parts of the game (scrum, lineout and breakdown). Also, all 4 of the tries we have conceded have been from individual skill errors or defensive errors, not systematic errors. But I do agree that our attack has a long way to go. But we have a strong foundation now that just wasnt there last year.

A 2 point loss is a lot better than most people here were expecting (myself included). Yet we're still calling for heads on spikes.

Clegg

I don't think many of our players actually performed poorly. The pack was fully committed and performed excellently at set piece. The backs were more of a mixed bag, but I think all contributed one or two moments of positive play.

Our biggest problem is that we're performing to less than the sum of our parts. It really is all down to coaching.

Clegg

Think the plyers also deserve credit for keeping Dupont relatively quiet. He's a genuine game breaker around the ruck, either by sniping through a gap or delaying a pass long enough for a defender to commit and then passing to a France player in space. He did that a few times today and we slammed a door in his face every time.

Couldn't keep him out of the game entirely though. Still got his hands on the ball and managed to hand off Furlong. The guy is a freak. Think he may have been the player to get the match winning turnover too.