Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Natterjack from Kerry

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Burns will certainly play for Ireland again. Would you have said same about Ross Byrne after some of his poor early tests? Or Sexton or ROG?
He wasnt helped by his 9 being poor and the game plan.

Both OHs did OK, but I think with a conservative playbook, which can make them look limited or dull and not exploiting the capability outsidde them. But that is a sensible strategy considering where both are coming from, and their general capability. The cloth must be cut to measure. Neither is, nor ever will be, Sexton level.
JGP was fine - he gives a better service than Murray and deserves to stay for the campaign to see him in a couple of more games with Sexton hopefully outside him for the Scotland and England games.
Those outside the halves can really only be judged in the context of the forwards performace, and the halves themselves. With Sexton failing, though likely to still sporadically have world class moments, its going to be difficult. There really isnt an international level outhalf on the field. Fingers crossed that Carbery get back to see if he is the real solution. Frawley and H Byrne - remains to be seen, and I feel claims for both are more in the hope than expectation category. I saw the joke thread on Hanrahan. Jesus. The reluctance to drop Murray has hurt us over the last few years. Living on reputation and given more than enough opportunity to play himself back to a level that deserves an uncontested starting spot - he has been far from it.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

I agree our attack isnt good enough. But we are seeing tangible improvements in the fundamental parts of the game (scrum, lineout and breakdown). Also, all 4 of the tries we have conceded have been from individual skill errors or defensive errors, not systematic errors. But I do agree that our attack has a long way to go. But we have a strong foundation now that just wasnt there last year.

A 2 point loss is a lot better than most people here were expecting (myself included). Yet we're still calling for heads on spikes.

a defeats a defeat. 0 from 2 and a continued obvious slide since 2018 under a coach involved with one of our worst ever World Cups.

The fundamentals fell apart so any improvement is welcome but part of the overall slide and lack of direction Ireland are suffering under Farrell.

We'll have people defending all this even if we finish second bottom.

We had people declaring since last year an obvious improvement in our attacking shape. Its a lie.

We have super inconsistent selection policy, which you could clearly see today. Why bother selecting Casey if you don't think he's ready. The nonsense with Conan and Coombes. I think its as clear as day we needed to clear the decks after Japan, we didn't do it and we'll pay a heavy price.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

a defeats a defeat. 0 from 2 and a continued obvious slide since 2018 under a coach involved with one of our worst ever World Cups.

Yeah you can word it that way an it seems all doom and gloom. But you leave out some pretty important information. A 5 point loss away against Wales with 14 men and some very questionable referring. And a 2 point loss against an excellent French team. If you cant see any improvements in our set piece and breakdown, I dont know what your watching. If it weren't for some absolute brain farts and awful defense from a certain winger, we'd be 2 from 2. Calm down.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

Yeah you can word it that way an it seems all doom and gloom. But you leave out some pretty important information. A 5 point loss away against Wales with 14 men and some very questionable referring. And a 2 point loss against an excellent French team. If you cant see any improvements in our set piece and breakdown, I dont know what your watching. If it weren't for some absolute brain farts and awful defense from a certain winger, we'd be 2 from 2. Calm down.

they're two losses. It doesn't matter a jot what way you spin it. Now we can't make change against Italy possibly. Then two really hard matches to come. The most annoying thing about it all is the way irish people have suddenly, again started taking heroic defeats.

Its a clear and obvious slide. We'll could be picking up the wooden spoon and people would be in denial. Ever since the ****storm against Japan its been a hell of a ****show in terms of giving out passes and people in denial.

Theres improvement in our set piece after it started to fall apart, under who's watch? POC clearly making an impact here.

Anyway its Farrell out from me, its just not going to work imo.

Hes a twice failed assistant coach learning on the job in a role Irish rugby needed to get right at a critical juncture in our growth.

Natterjack from Kerry

A little out of touch on the fuller panel - where is A Conway ? Injured ?

Locke_Lamora

I'm a bit exhausted by the half back talk and people are seeing whatever they want to see, but i'll give my two cents anyway. Neither Ross Byrne or Billy Burns is the man for us going into the next world cup. Burns hasn't taking his opportunities well, his kicking is sub-par, and he never seems to handle the pressure of big games for Ulster or Ireland. Ross Byrnes weaknesses are clear as day - often stands too deep, telegraphs his passes, and doesn't offer a running threat at all. The idea that he could control a game or get a backline moving has always been wrong imo, as he was always playing behind a dominant Leinster pack and his main responsibility seemed to involve giving the ball to Henshaw as quickly as possible (I might be being harsh there).

Getting angry at the coaching ticket doesn't do much good here, as other factors beyond their control have forced their hand. Jackson is head and shoulders above the options we have available now but he can't be picked for obvious reasons and that's the last i'll say of that. Carbery has had rotten luck with injuries - some of which might be contributed to the coaches rushing him back. Carbery seems to be our best bet still, and while his best rugby was played at 15 imo, he showed plenty of promise at 10. However, there is no guarantee he can come back the same player, nor is there a guarantee that he can stay fit. Harry Byrne is next best for me, seems to have a lot of what you want in a 10 but he lacks big game experience and throwing him in under the current circumstances may do more harm that good, so I understand why the coaches are be patient with him.

Other options? There's Carty who I don't think has been on great form and doesn't offer any improvement on the current options. Hanrahan is a no from me - never thought he was the prospect some made him out to be and the people who criticise Burns for buckling under pressure (myself included) would have a field day with him. There's young Healy but I don't think he's shown as much promise as Harry Byrne, but should be an option further down the line.

Personally I don't really see the point in getting too bent out of shape with the 10 argument. I'd say we're in a waiting game here - just keeping our heads above water until Carbery is back or Byrne Jnr. is deemed to be 'ready'.

Other than that congrats to Henderson on captaining Ireland for the first time, people have replaced him with various players in their personal XV over the years and some don't see him as captain material but he looks to be cementing himself again after his injury. Forwards in general were ok and we have some decent younger players who could soon put there hands up. Don't think we'll have a dominant pack come world cup time but certainly one that can win games for us. Backs weren't great. Never seem to fix a man before passing, rarely make defenders hesitate or think and passing never seems to be to hands. Basic things like that aren't up to standards which is why I'm surprised seeing people confident that Henshaw or Ringrose would start a Lions test vs SA.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

they're two loses. It doesn't matter a jot what way you spin it.

Its a clear and obvious slide. We'll could be picking up the wooden spoon and people would be in denial. Ever since the ****storm against Japan its been a hell of a ****show in terms of giving out passes and people in denial.

I'm not trying to spin anything. Give over with this bull**** football fan mentality of "instant success or you're sacked". We are a better team now than we were this time last year and if you can see that then you dont know much about rugby. You cant criticise a coach for losing a game nobody expected us to win.

Must love hardship

Healy/ byrne. Healy made a lot of tackles but missed a couple too.. looked very tired before he was taken off for the 2nd time. Byrne.. limited was caught flat-topped for the try. A worrying position for me coming from a time we had mcgrath and healy in tandem. Kilcoyne looks to be made of glass. You'd hope Eric o sullivan and josh wycherly get a serious opportunity to start maybe with healy to see out the game.

Herring/kelleher. I think kelleher should be given the reigns for the rest of the 6 nations.

Porter/furlong.
Our strongest position.

Beirne/henderson/ dillane.
Beirne not as influential as the last day but a solid outing. Henderson ran the line out well. Neither at Ryan's level but both should be kept around. Beirne Ryan Henderson is a solid trio what ever way you rotate it.

Ruddock. Nice early steal at the lineout. Offered himself to carry all day. Not bad for his first start.

Vdf/connors not a influential as we needed them to be. Connors got a lovely steal near the end. Almost a carbon copy of with beirne got pinged for last week. For me I think leavy cannot get back to full fitness fast enough.

Stander. Carried well. But not the most inventive with the ball.. seriously need to look at Coombes here if Doris is out longterm.
Plenty of options in the back row.

JGP/Casey gpark spent 80 minutes today probably for the first time in his career. Missed 3 very important tackles 2 I think in the lead up to the first try. Poor passing to the right. Kicks poor faster than Murray to get ball away from the base of the ruck. Didnt direct play well. Criminal that casey didn't see game time.

Burns /byrne. Byrne looks to be a more solid option. Does the basics right.

Midfield lacked innovation

Lowe terrible in defence.

Earls better.
Keenan not as good as last week

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

Hes a twice failed assistant coach learning on the job in a role Irish rugby needed to get right at a critical juncture in our growth.

Jesus you're living on a different planet altogether

Go watch some football

Niallof9

None of our players bar maybe Ryan, Ringrose and Furlong would start for the Lions.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

Jesus you're living on a different planet altogether

ha yeah good one. so was he or was he not a failure with England and then Ireland as an assistant? yet he was the must have guy

sorry of course. Its great, nothing to see here. 0 from 2, excellent stuff. Sure why don't we wait till the QF in 23 to judge him

jesus Irish rugby really is doomed with some of the denial going on. its been called for some time by many on here.

Farrell isn't the right guy for the job

D.Q

Horrendous stuff. Think farrell needs to go also.

There doesn't seem to be any plan or progress. Farrell seems to be a continuation of Joe without the detail that made it work.

The sudden improvement with set piece after POC is actually pretty damming too. Wtf were they at beforehand.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

ha yeah good one

sorry of course. Its great, nothing to see here. 0 from 2, excellent stuff. Sure why don't we wait till the QF in 23 to judge him

When did I say it was great. I never said Farrell was a good head coach or a good appointment. And it's not 0 from 2. He was defense coach on 2 successful lions tours. But that doesn't suit your narrative so dont mention those.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

When did I say it was great. I never said Farrell was a good head coach or a good appointment. And it's not 0 from 2. He was defense coach on 2 successful lions tours. But that doesn't suit your narrative so dont mention those.

I couldn't give a toss about the Lions in this context.

He's clearly an excellent coach, well liked. He's got great qualities. But why was he allowed learn on the job with Ireland?

I think he's in real trouble if we go 1 from 5. And so he should be after November as well where he completely ****ed our planning.

cantwbr1

I think that most people commenting here can be divided into 2 groups. Those of us who grew up in the 70s, 80s and early 90s where a 6 nations win was unusual and expecting a hiding the norm.
Th others started supporting since the late 90s (probably based on age) who expect us to win because that’s what they’re used to.

I’m not suggesting that we’re happy with mediocrity but our expectations are probably lower and in some respects we are happy that we’re not being hammered.

We also may be able to (think we) see incremental improvements.
In the last 2 matches the pack has at a minimum achieved parity and IMO come out on top overall.
Improvements in the backs are not as obvious but hope springs eternal

TRC10

Just out of curiosity, what would have been an acceptable result for some of the anti-Farrell brigade here? Because everybody expected us to lose comfortably..but we didnt. We lost by 2 points and showed tangible improvements in fundamental areas. Yes our attack is poor, but that can improve, just as our scrum, lineout and breakdown has improved. But people still want Farrells head on a spike because we aren't a perfect team.

So what would have been an acceptable result for those who want farrell gone?

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss about the Lions in this context.

.

Oh you've made that very clear.

clsmooth

You have to feel for Farrell. Doris having to drop out the eve of the tournament. POM’s moment of madness costing us a win in Wales. Losing Ryan and Sexton to head injuries. Losing Kilcoyne and Murray during the week. Then losing 3 players 90 seconds into the second half. How are you meant to generate any cohesion when that happens? No doubt played a big part in us looking a bit clueless in the second half today attack wise.

We were always going to be outgunned today missing all those players. Although we never looked like winning, we stayed in the hunt to the last play as we did last week with 14 men for 67minutes. We’ve shown a lot of heart in the last 2 games and there’s been real improvements with the set piece since autumn. Just seem to be missing the rub of the green.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

I couldn't give a toss about the Lions in this context.

He's clearly an excellent coach, well liked. He's got great qualities. But why was he allowed learn on the job with Ireland?

I think he's in real trouble if we go 1 from 5. And so he should be after November as well where he completely ****ed our planning.

I actually agree Farrell shouldnt have gotten the job. But guess what, hes in the job. And he has tangibly improved us in the space of a year. Yes we've lost 2 from 2. But that doesn't tell the full story and its disingenuous to suggest it does.

When certain aspects clearly improve, people only want to focus on what has yet to improve

billyhead

The IRFU should give the job to Leo Cullen and Stuart Lancaster.

Niallof9

we're 0-2 while also having the oldest team in the tournament. we've been absolutely ****e in a few games under AF and we've done ok in a few. We are nowhere near where people were saying we were. People going on about our shape last Feb, in OCt, in November. "changes", the players saying how excited they were with all the "changes" etc. today was the exact same ****e as before. Seeking contact, not looking for space, ****e passing, over box kicking, no invention or spark and creation of a huge number of rucks.

Most likely because of stupidity and budgets AF will get the full whack of his contract.

I think this will be like Eddie's last year. Italy will be gunning for us i feel.

UAEguy2020

cantwbr1 wrote: »

I think that most people commenting here can be divided into 2 groups. Those of us who grew up in the 70s, 80s and early 90s where a 6 nations win was unusual and expecting a hiding the norm.
Th others started supporting since the late 90s (probably based on age) who expect us to win because that’s what they’re used to.

I’m not suggesting that we’re happy with mediocrity but our expectations are probably lower and in some respects we are happy that we’re not being hammered.

We also may be able to (think we) see incremental improvements.
In the last 2 matches the pack has at a minimum achieved parity and IMO come out on top overall.
Improvements in the backs are not as obvious but hope springs eternal

The pack definitely has improved which is a huge positive but the back play is still a joke. I honestly question do they even practice any back moves at all in training because from watching Ireland we look like a team that passes the ball just for the sake of passing it rather than looking to open teams up. We never look to find miss matches or draw defenders it just seems pass it as far as we can until no one is left and then just take the ball into contact or just get to the end and kick the ball away...

We need to have standards, if we as a rugby nation are good enough to get to first in the world which we did in 2018 then that’s what the target should always be, not saying anything else is failure but if we settle for less we will continue to
fail at every World Cup.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

I actually agree Farrell shouldnt have gotten the job. But guess what, hes in the job. And he has tangibly improved us in the space of a year. Yes we've lost 2 from 2. But that doesn't tell the full story and its disingenuous to suggest it does.

When certain aspects clearly improve, people only want to focus on what has yet to improve

I completely disagree he's improved us. from what? japan? Look if he turns it around in the last 3 matches i'll hold my hands up. The squad is certainly good enough.

UAEguy2020

clsmooth wrote: »

You have to feel for Farrell. Doris having to drop out the eve of the tournament. POM’s moment of madness costing us a win in Wales. Losing Ryan and Sexton to head injuries. Losing Kilcoyne and Murray during the week. Then losing 3 players 90 seconds into the second half. How are you meant to generate any cohesion when that happens? No doubt played a big part in us looking a bit clueless in the second half today attack wise.

We were always going to be outgunned today missing all those players. Although we never looked like winning, we stayed in the hunt to the last play as we did last week with 14 men for 67minutes. We’ve shown a lot of heart in the last 2 games and there’s been real improvements with the set piece since autumn. Just seem to be missing the rub of the green.

Off the ball made a great point, how many times do we have to say that we are missing the rub of the green before it becomes obvious to us that there is more to this than missing the rub of the green?

Clegg

billyhead wrote: »

The IRFU should give the job to Leo Cullen and Stuart Lancaster.

Lancaster definitely isn't interested in coaching at test level. He's repeatedly said he much prefers coaching every day and improving players skills. Can't do that at test level.

Don't know about Cullen, but I think he's more than happy being the head honcho at Leinster.

ClanofLams

Ultimately it's professional sport, the only question that matters is whether Andy Farrell is the best man to take Ireland to the World Cup or not. Not sure how anyone could answer in the positive.

Niallof9

We're all perspiration and nearly zero inspiration. i'd wager we're one of the worst natural footballing/ on instinct teams in the World at the moment. Yet we have the players. i just don;t get it. Joue, joue all day for me.

UAEguy2020

I still think Andy Farrell can take the team to the World Cup but ultimately he has to make the right decision. He has to bring someone in the help the Irish attack (idk who that is but someone needs to come in pronto), it worked for our pack now if we could find someone who could be as effective with the backs and we will be all set.

If Farrell doesn’t do this or make the right appointment if he does go for someone from the outside than we isn’t the right man for the RWC.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

We're all perspiration and nearly zero inspiration. i'd wager we're one of the worst natural footballing/ on instinct teams in the World at the moment. Yet we have the players. i just don;t get it. Joue, joue all day for me.

Its actually "Jouez". You add "ez" to the infinitive when it's an imperative. Somebody wasnt paying attention in LC French.

I'll ask again. What would have been an acceptable result for you today?

UAEguy2020

Niallof9 wrote: »

We're all perspiration and nearly zero inspiration. i'd wager we're one of the worst natural footballing/ on instinct teams in the World at the moment. Yet we have the players. i just don;t get it. Joue, joue all day for me.

One of? There’s someone worse than us?

We aren’t the worst rugby team obviously but in terms of heads up rugby or attacking instinct we have to be the worst surely. It’s weird because these players have it when they play for their provinces but when they get into Irish camp it’s like a vacuum.