Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163296#Comment_122163296

Because i read the interview and he specifically said it changed their selection policy. Not that players improved.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163312#Comment_122163312

I didn't, and I'm very glad Rowntree took things in a different direction because JvG was a disaster, but equally you wouldn't call Farrell a brand new coach in 2019.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163323#Comment_122163323

I have no idea, its crazy.

RichieRich_89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122162979#Comment_122162979

There's also the fairly big factor of when Currie Cup teams are available to play.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163326#Comment_122163326

I'd call him a brand new coach in terms of selection to be fair. Sub coaches have input, but not decision making power.

I think we were all worried post RWC 2019 a bit about Farrell just doing more of the same. He actually showed a massively increased propensity to cap players (despite the narrative sometimes) and obviously play a very different style.

Position coaches have to do their job in the framework they are given. I don't think it's mad to say that Rowntree would have a very different view on selection and he never had the chance to show that before the EI tour. All signs point to him picking Healy etc, but he was only just in the job - Farrell's first 6N wasn't great either.

I still think the EI helped Crowley and I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. But I'd call them a brand new coaching staff in terms of selection.

ulsteru20s

Are you allowed to quote the irish times on here? Its a paywalled article? I sub digitally.

I think the actual quote is pretty egregious. Like, i'm not exagerating. .

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163396#Comment_122163396

You can quote paragraphs and link the article, but that is it.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163400#Comment_122163400

“What it enabled the provinces to do was to see their provincial players in a different light with different coaches. From that, it turned Munster’s season around. They started selecting players they weren’t selecting. It was a definite change; it isn’t the sole reason [they won the URC] but it was a big part of it. For the national coaches it was a way for them to be able to get a better understanding of the talent pool.”

Come on, that's a bit much when they were in charge pre tour for two games, right?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2024/05/18/what-has-david-nucifora-ever-done-for-irish-rugby/

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163353#Comment_122163353

I was thinking that also being an issue but couldn't find any fixtures yet for 2024.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163325#Comment_122163325

That isn't what you said in the post I quoted.

If you have issue with him saying he changed their selection policy then fine - though he is far closer to you and I to know the truth of how the Munster set-up planned for those players before the EI tour. Trying to argue about it is absolutely pointless as everyone is completely guessing.

However, the fact is that good old Dave can take some credit for Munster winning the URC, given that the credit is coming from inside the Munster camp for how his EI tour helped Crowley that season.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163356#Comment_122163356

I still think the EI helped Crowley and I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise. But I'd call them a brand new coaching staff in terms of selection.

100%. I think what Farrell did for Crowley is not a million miles from what he did for JGP.

Like, there isn't really any debate that JGP is a much better player than the decent-but-limited Luke McGrath - but for a long time, that was not clear and certainly Leo Cullen either didn't see it or just couldn't get the best out of JGP. Once Farrell got him going, there wasn't any debate to be had and now he's probably the best non-French 9 in the world. Maybe JGP would have got there eventually but it was taking a while and by no means was it inevitable.

Likewise, not only did Farrell skip over the even-more-limited-Healy to pick Crowley, he did it again for the Six Nations when he promoted Crowley over the not-really-limited-but-deeply-flawed Carbery, who was still the first choice 10 at Munster. He absolutely saw something in Crowley that Munster did not, and it's easy to look back now and say, well, it was inevitable that Crowley would come through - it wasn't inevitable at all.

Again, I think Rowntree is brilliant and he's turned things around so well after the JvG clusterf**k, but it's the steadfast refusal to give Farrell and Ireland any credit that is galling to me.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163423#Comment_122163423

You keep mentioning Daly’s quote but would you not say it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media?

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163423#Comment_122163423

Read the quote. He didn't take some credit, he took the lions share. For changing the selection habits of a coaching group that was in charge for two games.

You can see that in a couple of different ways but remember they are essentially his employees. I doubt they would contradict him.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163434#Comment_122163434

When Farrell got the head-coach gig in 2019 Cullen had been in place for, what, 4 seasons? JGP was ~27?

It’s really not the same as Rowntree being in place for what, 2 games?? When Crowley was 22?

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163446#Comment_122163446

And Crowley was a 22 year old.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163436#Comment_122163436

Agree, though I'm pretty sure many here claimed comments from other Munster players in the media should be treated as gospel but we can park that.

Most sports people BS is more general platitudes, it is weird for one to drop a very specific fact in an interview that has no potential benefit to themselves.

Dropping in the middle of an interview a team mate's role during the EI Tour, what he took back from it, and how it helped him is incredibly specific.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163484#Comment_122163484

A player bigging up a team mate isn’t weird in the slightest…

It is funny to me tho that for someone who so summarily dismissed Kleyn’s comments to the media is now happy to accept Daly’s comment.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163446#Comment_122163446

Crowley was the same age when Ireland spotted his talent as he was when Munster were still trying to figure it out. And when Ben Healy is only six months older than Crowley, I'm not sure it's as much of an argument to say ah shure he was only young.

And even after those two games, when Crowley came back from the EI tour, he was pretty much benching or slotting into gaps for the next couple of months.

JGP was 28 making his test debut. It doesn't matter. The substantive point is that Farrell was able to see something in him that he had not demonstrated for Leinster on any sort of consistent basis, even at that age with a long pro career that up to that point would have been best described as 'journeyman-esque'.

Again, I understand Farrell is deeply unpopular here but I think he deserves a lot of credit for his ability to spot talent and get the most out of it, and Crowley is a great example of that.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163438#Comment_122163438

He is basically out the door and there are plenty of ways to leak to the media.

Not only did he help Munster to the URC but he also has a giant set of balls if there is zero validity to his comment around selections and is gambling no one will call him out. He could have played it safe and said players improved but went a step further.

As I said, you and I know less than he does so we're completely guessing.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163524#Comment_122163524

What does Munster figuring it out mean?

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163524#Comment_122163524

You’re conflating Munster, Van Graan and Rowntree here.

That whole paragraph on JGP; literally none of that applies to Crowley. They were at entirely different points in their career when they got their Test debut. Add that Covid would clearly have had an impact on Crowley’s development. That absolutely matters.

Fwiw, I literally previously remember arguing you on here when you dismissed Healy and Crowley for not taking Carbery’s spot during his 2 year injury absence with Munster.

Crowley, 19, wasn’t even in the academy and Healy, 20, was year one academy at the time Carbery’s 2-year injury stint started.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163540#Comment_122163540

You actually think that rowntree sat down with Nucifora and said "yea im not planning on selecting these 9/10 guys including ahern, hodnett and crowley".

2/3 of which are universally thought to be the best prospects that have come through in munster in a while.

You believe that, and you simultaneously believe that Nucifora gave him the job. Even though one of the main roles of irish coaches is to develop players for the national team.

AND, you believe all that, and this is the same guy who was happy to play edogbo super young, gleeson super young, ben o connor (who actually seems a bit undercooked) super young.

These are all thoughts you are capable of holding in your head at the same time.

I have to say, congrats.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163501#Comment_122163501

I didn't dismiss Kleyn's comments, I questioned the blind faith some were putting into his self-serving generic Robbie Keane style platitudes.

Bigging up a team mate isn't weird, but what you're implying is very weird - that Daly is making up a very specific lie about a team mate's growth during a very specific period and repeats it at multiple times during the interview.

There was a million ways he could have bigged up Crowley but chose multiple times to refer to his growth during the EI Tour.

That Emerging Ireland trip was just unbelievable for him, just the way he was able to step up. He kind of put himself in a leadership role out there as well and he’s brought that back into Munster as well.

His confidence levels really went through the roof after that tour and rightfully so

Why do you feel you know better than his own team mate? Maybe, just maybe, the IRFU and Dave did something that helped Munster.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163550#Comment_122163550

You think you didn’t dismiss Kleyn’s comment?

Right…

We've spoken about how little you can safely take from player and coach interviews. 

It is incredibly naïve to believe every player is 100% honest and divulges everything in the media.

To believe Saint Kleyn is above it is hilarious.

Yeah, it is so extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to media.

Up until the last few weeks ago I thought that was a generally accepted fact, not some slur on the character of individual sportspeople.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163543#Comment_122163543

Again, the specifics of the JGP situation aren’t particularly relevant , it’s the general point that we have a national coach who can really identify players who can do a job regardless of provincial pecking order or experience. You could look at Jimmy O’Brien, Mack Hansen as other examples of that same ability.

All you’re doing is highlighting your unwillingness to credit him for that.

Fwiw, I literally previously remember arguing you on here when you dismissed Healy and Crowley for not taking Carbery’s spot during his 2 year injury absence with Munster.

Jesus Christ not this again.




aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163555#Comment_122163555

I’m more than happy to give Farrell credit for that (and have used that exact JGP example in the past).

But you suggested Farrell did something that Rowntree didn’t because Rowntree was there for 3 years.

Whereas the reality is that Rowntree was the head coach for a single game before the EI tour was announced.

Add in the age profiles. It’s not remotely similar to JGP and Cullen. It’s just not.

Jesus Christ not this again

I absolutely understand why you don’t like me bringing up things you’ve said in the past tbh. FFF…

pickarooney

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163543#Comment_122163543

Ntamack and Jalibert had both made their France debuts at 19. When the talent is there, age doesn't matter.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163546#Comment_122163546

I'll repeat myself, I've zero idea what happened between Dave and the Munster set-up in the lead up to the EI tour - just like you have zero idea.

All I've said is that he has absolutely huge balls to come out with that quote if there is no truth at all to it.

Given how toxic the Munster fanbase is to him and his knowing his comment would be analyzed, he'd need a wheelbarrow to carry them around if he is lying.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163554#Comment_122163554

Surprised you actually posted those and showed everyone how you wasted your time trawling several months back only to dig up quote after quote that align with exactly how I described them earlier:

I questioned the blind faith some were putting into his self-serving generic Robbie Keane style platitudes.

If I was dismissing him back, then then you joined me tonight 'dismissing' poor old Jean and Shane Daly with your statement that matches my posts that:

it’s extremely rare that a person involved in sport tells the full truth to the media

I can see through your obvious attempts to goal post move and deflect from the fact that one of Munster's own players repeatedly cited the EI Tour as being beneficial to the development of Crowley. This wasn't some generic, 'Crowley, had a good tour' waffle, it was specific areas on tour that Crowley showed improvement and brought back to Munster and the impact it had on his game.

But no, you obviously know better than a guy who has played with Crowley for years, just like 'ulster'u20s knows more than the guys who were in the room where discussions happened.

I know you said you'd leave it a few times already but I will actually drop out for the rest of the week. Have a Champions Cup final to focus on, much better to look forward to that than getting flustered about some back-ups potentially missing a few matches in September.

ulsteru20s

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122163602#Comment_122163602

I believe that it is extremely unlikely that Rowntree would be allowed to be hired if he stated a plan of not selecting ahern, hodnett, barron, crowley, and basically all their best players under 25. I also believe that it is extremely unlikely that the EI tour prompted a complete u turn for basically all of them, and that he would be unable to see their talent himself. I just think he knows more about rugby than that.

I believe that to be obvious to almost anyone.

I see above that you are leaving these discussions to concentrate your intellect on champions cup rugby. Fantastic. I look forward to no reply.