Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AbusesToilets

Irish players always seem to be looking to offload half a second too late. You see guys taking contact and then deciding to look to pop it up as they're almost on the ground. Whereas France, and other top teams, will look to get the pass off right after contact. Creates that rolling wave in attack.

They also look to have runners on shoulders, something we still don't do. How many times do you see Ringrose looking for some one to pass to, to no avail in those situations.

Basic stuff

ionadnapokot

TRC10 wrote: »

Dulin would never have bitten there and if he had bitten it would have been a poor decision. The scramble defense was getting across. Dulin defended it really well.

I think we're looking for an issue where there isn't. I dont think there was anything wrong with that move. Just good defending and unlucky to have a toe in touch.

Keenan didn’t have to get Dulin to bite just slow him up.
Hold it in two hands. Throw a dummy. Straighten. And give pass.

He only did the first part and the last part (badly).

A few passes from him today that were poor.

Ireland’s passing and decision making in general is very poor.

ionadnapokot

Clegg wrote: »

On the one hand you can say we weren't prepared for the turnover in an attacking sense. It was a great lineout steal to regain possession. But really the best sides should be able to quickly flip from defence to attack. We just kicked it away. Alignment wasn't perfect, but there was plenty of space to pass and run into. A couple of quick passed from Burns to Henshaw and then to Ringrose and we're in acres of space.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1361068225228857344?s=09

Nerves

TRC10

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Keenan didn’t have to get Dulin to bite just slow him up.
Hold it in two hands. Throw a dummy. Straighten. And give pass.

He only did the first part and the last part (badly).

A few passes from him today that were poor.

Ireland’s passing and decision making in general is very poor.

If he delays any longer, defense gets across and bundles Lowe into touch before he gets near the line. And everyone is slating Keenan for blowing a try. I genuinely cant see anything wrong with the execution there.

ionadnapokot

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Irish players always seem to be looking to offload half a second too late. You see guys taking contact and then deciding to look to pop it up as they're almost on the ground. Whereas France, and other top teams, will look to get the pass off right after contact. Creates that rolling wave in attack.

They also look to have runners on shoulders, something we still don't do. How many times do you see Ringrose looking for some one to pass to, to no avail in those situations.

Basic stuff

I’m hesitant to criticise Ringrose because of all the Ireland players I think he makes the best decisions.

But i thought he could have given a couple of passes in the second half today instead of taking contact.

Maybe he felt he was running out of pitch and was looking to offload like you say.

He kicked one up the touch line into the 22’.
Commentary said it was a good decision. Would like to see it again.

Neil3030

Losing 5 v 3 rucks, or making less than half the yards per carry in the forwards. I know which I'd pick.

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

Losing 5 v 3 rucks, or making less than half the yards per carry in the forwards. I know which I'd pick.

If you're losing a lot of rucks, your carries are going to be very frustrating. I know that's not what you're saying, but losing rucks absolutely kills me. I hate it. Those stats from the French forwards aren't really about forward dominance anyway, they're about their offloading game. Which is where we really need to step up.

UAEguy2020

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Irish players always seem to be looking to offload half a second too late. You see guys taking contact and then deciding to look to pop it up as they're almost on the ground. Whereas France, and other top teams, will look to get the pass off right after contact. Creates that rolling wave in attack.

They also look to have runners on shoulders, something we still don't do. How many times do you see Ringrose looking for some one to pass to, to no avail in those situations.

Basic stuff

It’s incredible because they have no problems doing it for their provinces and it’s all pretty basic stuff that you’d expect any professional team to execute yet when these players put on the green shirt they lose all attacking nous and just play safety first rugby.

crossman47

TRC10 wrote: »

If he delays any longer, defense gets across and bundles Lowe into touch before he gets near the line. And everyone is slating Keenan for blowing a try. I genuinely cant see anything wrong with the execution there.

I felt he should have waied a fraction longer before passing. he didn't get any defender to commit.

Neil3030

prawnsambo wrote: »

If you're losing a lot of rucks, your carries are going to be very frustrating. I know that's not what you're saying, but losing rucks absolutely kills me. I hate it. Those stats from the French forwards aren't really about forward dominance anyway, they're about their offloading game. Which is where we really need to step up.

Ruck retention can also be completely misleading.

15 phases, Edwards's system suffocates your carries, pushing you 20 or 30 yards backwards, you eventually kick it away.

Ruck retention in that phase: 100%.

irishbucsfan

Neil3030 wrote: »

Ruck retention can also be completely misleading.

15 phases, Edwards's system suffocates your carries, pushing you 20 or 30 yards backwards, you eventually kick it away.

Ruck retention in that phase: 100%.

What about that is misleading?

TRC10

crossman47 wrote: »

I felt he should have waied a fraction longer before passing. he didn't get any defender to commit.

You dont always want to commit a defender. He could have committed Dulin, but then Lowe would have had no space because the defense would have time to get across. What he needed to do was give lowe the most time and space possible to get in the corner.

It wasn't a simple 2 on 1. There were 3 French defenders flying across aswell as Dulin. Keenan had to make a split second decision, give Lowe a 1 on 1 against a much smaller man, or let the cover defense get across and shut it down. He did the right thing.

ExMachina1000

Flat , stale and lacking ideas.
Wouldn't blame Farrell at all just think the team is going through a transition

Hands Like Flippers

Brewster wrote: »

An incredible effort today considering the players that were missing. We were always going to have a period of adjustment. We have come out the wrong side of two incredibly close games. We were inch or two away from having a kick to go 10 nil. It would have been massive. Think about it. It didn’t happen and in a flash we were 7-3 down. Sometimes you need a bit of luck to go your way. I do think we have have younger options we need to go with them now, within reason. I think Stockdale needs to come back in now. He simply has too much X factor not to play. I think he needs to play on wing though, how that is going to work with Lowe I am not sure? If we had a full strength team today, I think we would have got it over the line. Such small margins. Yes we need to do more in attack and Mike Catt does need to up his game. I genuinely think we are building a squad though. Our back row competed so well today, and we had POM and Doris missing, with Leavy possibly to come back into contention, although he still has some way to go. Connors also made an impact when he came on. I am optimistic for the future.

I like what you're saying but for me, most of the replacements were really good.

JGP should keep the shirt - so much better than that slow stodge CM serves up. I don't want to be offensive but it was day and night differences. 4 and 5 were great as was 6. I don't think CM and JS would nave changed anything other than to slow everything up.

And KEENAN should stop running sideways instead of straightening up. Did it a few times but wasn't the only one.

Burkie1203

Niallof9 wrote: »

Best ever? nah stop. He's a warrior at times. He's a dogged carrier, workrate off the chart and will take a ton of punishment. When he's on song he steamrolls people through sheer will. but how many big matches has he truly performed? against the top tier. he's been missing in any of the matches recently against England. Doris has already been able to nudge him from the number 8 spot. We need to stop with some of this stuff, we really do.

The lions whenever it happens will be another wakeup for many.

I'd select Stander at 6 though going forward, nobody else is doing what he does.

Its the predictability. Defences know what is coming and align accordingly. NZ in RWC QF. His first carry. Held up, turnover.

As a team we are far too easy to read too.

We need players to be doing things to keep teams guessing. Not doing the same things over and over again

Hands Like Flippers

TRC10 wrote: »

I'm not seeing that tbh. Keenan is drifting and if he delays any longer the defense has more time to get across. If anything he gave it to late.

He drifted far too much out wide.

TRC10

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

He drifted far too much out wide.

The pass pushed him wide and he had to run at an ark to get away from the defense. It's nowhere near as straightforward a scenario as people here are making it out to be.

bilston

Clegg wrote: »

On the one hand you can say we weren't prepared for the turnover in an attacking sense. It was a great lineout steal to regain possession. But really the best sides should be able to quickly flip from defence to attack. We just kicked it away. Alignment wasn't perfect, but there was plenty of space to pass and run into. A couple of quick passed from Burns to Henshaw and then to Ringrose and we're in acres of space.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1361068225228857344?s=09

The midfield were very flat there (which you admit yourself), its the 1st minute of the game, the alignment suggests the kick is pre called anyway, Burns was unlikely to spot given it is his first touch of the game, maybe Ringrose or Henshaw should call it, but they are clearly focused on the chase, maybe if it had happened 5 minutes later or we didn't have an out half winning his 4th cap there is more chance they would have acted on it.

Good spot though by Murray.

ionadnapokot

Hands Like Flippers wrote: »

I like what you're saying but for me, most of the replacements were really good.

JGP should keep the shirt - so much better than that slow stodge CM serves up. I don't want to be offensive but it was day and night differences. 4 and 5 were great as was 6. I don't think CM and JS would nave changed anything other than to slow everything up.

And KEENAN should stop running sideways instead of straightening up. Did it a few times but wasn't the only one.

What about Cooney? Or even Casey?

I think today’s game was a good example of what Keenan is good at and where he has limits.

Sabre0001

Would have liked to see stander used as a dummy runner once or twice. Was mentioned in commentary that they were up on him quick and double teaming. It's clear he was marked as a threat. So then play on that and put it to a runner behind when they bite in on his hard line.

ionadnapokot

TRC10 wrote: »

The pass pushed him wide and he had to run at an ark to get away from the defense. It's nowhere near as straightforward a scenario as people here are making it out to be.

I just heard this from Andy Farrell
“If we carry that ball another 5m, nice and square, we knock their defenders off we score that try”

As I said Keenan just needed to perform that basics there.
Two hands.Straighten it up. Throw dummy. Give pass.

Scratchly

TRC10 wrote: »

You dont always want to commit a defender. He could have committed Dulin, but then Lowe would have had no space because the defense would have time to get across. What he needed to do was give lowe the most time and space possible to get in the corner.

It wasn't a simple 2 on 1. There were 3 French defenders flying across aswell as Dulin. Keenan had to make a split second decision, give Lowe a 1 on 1 against a much smaller man, or let the cover defense get across and shut it down. He did the right thing.

Dulin was hesitant to commit until Keenan passed then he lined up Lowe and was able to make the hit well before the line. If Keenan delayed the pass Dulin doesn't get to commit as early and Lowe doesn't have to try smash him out of the way giving cover extra time to bundle him to touch.

It's just inexperience though Keenan will learn from it.

Louis Friend

Incredible to see Farrell being thrown to the wolves. There has been clear progress in these two games. We didnt win them, but there’s been progress.

A few observations:

- James Lowe should never play for Ireland again
- Ross Byrne became a man today
- JGP was decent at scrum-half
- Hugo Keenan continues to improve
- The Henshaw/Ringrose axis is the future
- Rhy Ruddock is a great option
- Billy Burns should never play for Ireland again
- We need Dan Leavy to come back
- Iain Henderson is a first choice row merchant

theVersatile

Byrne was not exactly a lot better than Burns.. . I'd nearly say Burns was better in open field attack and in the contestable kick game (though there was something more assuring about having Byrne go for posts and the corner - maybe last weeks bias). I can most definitely assure you we will see Billy Burns in an Irish Jersey again.

TRC10

Scratchly wrote: »

Dulin was hesitant to commit until Keenan passed then he lined up Lowe and was able to make the hit well before the line. If Keenan delayed the pass Dulin doesn't get to commit as early and Lowe doesn't have to try smash him out of the way giving cover extra time to bundle him to touch.

It's just inexperience though Keenan will learn from it.

Keenan had to pass when he did because he would have been tackled. He didnt have time to delay any longer or carry 5 more metres like Farrell said. Dulin knew this, that's why he didnt commit. Watch it again, Keenan delays for as long as he can.

Louis Friend

theVersatile wrote: »

Byrne was not exactly a lot better than Burns.. . I'd nearly say Burns was better in open field attack and in the contestable kick game (though there was something more assuring about having Byrne go for posts and the corner - maybe last weeks bias). I can most definitely assure you we will see Billy Burns in an Irish Jersey again.

Byrne grabbed the ball like a man and slotted that penalty like a pro. He actually attacked the gain-line in a way that was the exact opposite of his performance against England that drew so much criticism. Burns was rubbish. Billy Burns had nothing to offer Irish rugby and should never be allowed to wear the jersey again. We’ve enough talent here without importing our rivals’ cast-offs.

There has been a lot to be positive about in the last two games. We just need to be patient.

TRC10

Louis Friend wrote: »

Byrne grabbed the ball like a man and slotted that penalty like a pro. He actually attacked the gain-line in a way that was the exact opposite of his performance against England that drew so much criticism. Burns was rubbish. Billy Burns had nothing to offer Irish rugby and should never be allowed to wear the jersey again. We’ve enough talent here without importing our rivals’ cast-offs.

There has been a lot to be positive about in the last two games. We just need to be patient.

If Billy Burns was our best 10, would you have an issue with him being a "cast off"?

theVersatile

Louis Friend wrote: »

Byrne grabbed the ball like a man and slotted that penalty like a pro. He actually attacked the gain-line in a way that was the exact opposite of his performance against England that drew so much criticism. Burns was rubbish. Billy Burns had nothing to offer Irish rugby and should never be allowed to wear the jersey again. We’ve enough talent here without importing our rivals’ cast-offs.

There has been a lot to be positive about in the last two games. We just need to be patient.

Were watching different games so. I'm seeing lots of the same from Byrne - static shovelling; even if there does appear to be a concerted effort to start playing flatter. However that comes more naturally to Burns and he was not "rubbish". I admire RBs penalty and all, but still.

And of course the import card comes up again...

Clegg

I don't quite agree with Kinsella on this one. The kick wasn't a bad option to take. We have men over, but Ringrose's kick was executed well and had the French defender retreating into the 22 to regather but with chasers bearing down on him. We either force the player into a rushed kick to touch and make a huge net gain in metres, or even better, force a turnover.

But our tackling was crap and we let the French player escape. Think it was Earls who over shot on the hit. Whiffed at air. Story of our championship so far. Take the wrong option in attack too often and the odd time we do something well we mess up in the next phase.

There's definitely an argument we should've kept ball in hand, especially with JGP tracking well ahead of play waiting on the break to be made. Either option was a good one imo. But execution at the crucial moment let us down again.


https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1361107447658725378?s=09

bilston

Louis Friend wrote: »

Byrne grabbed the ball like a man and slotted that penalty like a pro. He actually attacked the gain-line in a way that was the exact opposite of his performance against England that drew so much criticism. Burns was rubbish. Billy Burns had nothing to offer Irish rugby and should never be allowed to wear the jersey again. We’ve enough talent here without importing our rivals’ cast-offs.

There has been a lot to be positive about in the last two games. We just need to be patient.

In what way was Burns rubbish? He had one bad miss at goal, and was stripped off the ball once. What else did he do wrong? Ireland were the better team for much of the first half when he was on the pitch. In the second half Ireland were literally going backwards when they had the ball.