Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122283628#Comment_122283628

So many crucial SA scores in the WC came from 50/50 high balls landing outside the 22. Could be a baptism of fire for any of them.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122285005#Comment_122285005

With the potential speed SA have on the wings, barring injuries, compared to Ireland I think they might attack that

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122285005#Comment_122285005

Some teams/kickers get these kicks badly wrong, in that they land inside the 22 and allow the receiver call the mark.

ersatz

No Keenan and no JGP is going to make this tour hard.

phog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122285952#Comment_122285952

Yes, not ideal and it's a shame that Haley (who I admit, hasn't been at his best but he's the next best FB) hasn't got a call up to replace Keenan, who I think could well be a bigger loss than JGP. The Bulls had Leinster chasing shadows with some of their kicking, Ireland can't afford to give SA that space or ball.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122285952#Comment_122285952

Good

We already know a full-strength Ireland can beat the Boks, but if we're going to SA with a few front-liners missing, then we're going to learn something, win or lose.

Was something funny about seeing the players going back into camp yesterday, almost 12 months on from when the season started (camp last year for the RWC started on July 10th).

So many of these guys just have to be physically and mentally flogged, and I would definitely wonder if the enthusiasm levels and energy were at the levels typically expected this week.

Across the entire squad, players played on average of 22 games and 1,294 minutes over the past season, but there are some outliers in there skewing the numbers. 4 players played under 600 minutes (Oli Jager - 440 mins, Cian Healy - 469 mins, Sam Prendergast - 478 mins and Cormac Izuchukwu - 521 mins). Another few guys like Jimmy O'Brien, James Ryan & Garry Ringrose spent significant chunks of the season injured.

3 of our absolute most important players - Tadhg Beirne (29 games, 2,132 mins), Jack Crowley (31 games, 1,983 mins) and Caelan Doris (28 games, 1,919 mins) have arguably been absolutely flogged this season, and a few other guys have very high numbers relative to the attritional nature of their positions - Andrew Porter (25 games, 1,525 mins) and Dan Sheehan (27 games, 1,320 mins).

If Ireland can get up for this series and produce some good performances in SA it will be a huge testament to the hunger and professionalism of this group of players, and to the motivational skills of Farrell & Co, but to me it feels like this tour will likely be a step too far for this group of players this season.

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122285952#Comment_122285952

have u seen the SA injury list!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122279861#Comment_122279861

It's hilarious to me reading back into the hysteria of all these posts about including Sam Prendergast on the tour, that there was virtually no similar analysis applied to Cormac Izuchukwu's selection.

Izuchukwu, who is 24 and in his fourth season of professional rugby, has only managed to rack up 29 games in four years, for 814 mins (Prendergast, 21, has played 18 games in 2 seasons for 638 mins).

Izuchukwu has never played a minute in the Champions Cup, not this season or any season, and only started 7 games this year. He had a good run in to the season, starting four games on the bounce and playing well, and that's carried him in here.

I'm not complaining about his inclusion - he looks a special talent, but you would have to raise an eyebrow at the hypocrisy around the teeth gnashing over bringing Sam Prendergast as our likely third choice out half but the absolute radio silence around this inclusion.

Jump_In_Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286200#Comment_122286200

Great to get South African input, would you be able to give the list of missing players please?
and what is the mood from a South African point of view regarding this tour? Is it a priority or is it seen as a burden on already flogged players?
Do the South African team expect to win easily at home, and would the public and media be very critical if Ireland won a test or two?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286153#Comment_122286153

Outside of a tour to NZ, you'd think this should at least be the easiest tour to get them hyped up for. SA being complete weirdos about it should hopefully help.

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286217#Comment_122286217

every summer tour is big in SA no matter the competition.missing players currently are kitshoff,moodie,am,willemse,de jager,wiese,arendse,kolbe and leroux are concerns too.think I’m missing one or two others too.in SA they always expect to win but that’s not always the case.expecting tough series yes.if SA lose no matter to who and especially at home the media cut them to shreds.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286213#Comment_122286213

One looks physically ready and ended the season a key player for his province and the other is maby a backuo for his province going into next year.

I think the nature of being a 24 year old vs a particularly slim 21 year old is a factor also.

Their not really like with like comparison i think

nerd69

Though sure leinster players getting the majority of ireland spots for years likely is a factor. An all ireland team is a good thing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286288#Comment_122286288

A key player for his province? He started 7 games last year total. He didn't play a single minute in Europe. He had a couple of nice games at the end of the season, notably against Munster and a good 15 mins before he departed injured against Leinster, but calling him a key player is a massive stretch, and claiming he earned this spot with sustained excellence doesn't stack up either.

Despite their age difference - Izuchukwu has no appreciable experience advantage over Prendergast, he's barely played more games and mins. For the positions they play in - Izuchukwu's durability and conditioning have also historically been concerns.

Hearing this stuff about "particularly slim" is tiresome too - Prendergast has visibly put size on over the course of the season, and is by any definition a really big guy at 6ft 4ins and c. 93kg.

The coaches are the ones who are tasked with determining his physical readiness for this sort of test, and are doing so armed with the knowledge of access to all of his data (gym, training etc), and by seeing him up close and in training daily. That holds quite a bit more credence than armchair pundits saying they think he looks a bit skinny.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286274#Comment_122286274

Arendse is apparently back for the Bulls this weekend

Rugbymad2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286344#Comment_122286344

that’s a big boost was the expecting him back for the 2nd Irish test.didnt expect him back before that.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286327#Comment_122286327

What i said was he ended the season a key player which im surprised you disagree with tbh he was key

He is particularly slim thats a fact, if the coaches dont see it as an issue thats fine and youd trust them but he is absolutely slim irrespective of what size hes put on

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286487#Comment_122286487

Johnny Sexton had that gangly and slimmer frame, and he spent most of his career at 6ft 2 and 90kgs - Prendergast is a couple of inches taller and about 4 or 5 kilos heavier.

He's not being asked to pack down in the front row either, and he's not being selected for his physicality.

What he has shown a great aptitude for early in his career is directing the attack - that's the unique skillset they see in him that they want to see more of.

Prendergast's inclusion in this squad isn't unusual - his is a high calibre talent who has shown significant potential, but, crucially, there is a real gap of viable alternatives / back ups to Crowley. It's highly likely he doesn't play on this tour, but bringing him along makes absolute sense.

Once again - I don't have any issue with Izuchukwu's inclusion. I think he looks to have the sort of elite talent that it's worth taking a punt on. My point was - most of the challenges levelled at Prendergast's inclusion earlier in this thread, especially his lack of big game experience etc is arguably even more valid as a criticism of Izuchukwu.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286533#Comment_122286533

The experience comment is fair but you could put Izuchukwu in poms role tomorrow and he coukd do it. Sam you need to change things for probably take him out of the defensive line for a start

I have no issue with him being there i just wish we did it for others also. If this can help him become international standard then happy days

nerd69

Alao sexton wasnt as skinny as sam even young. I find 95 kg hard to believe even if it is on a tall frame

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286673#Comment_122286673

They do elevate others also - especially in times of need. As has already been pointed out - Crowley had very little material difference in terms of experience when he was given the start against Australia.

They don't need to be as aggressive IMO in accelerating in some other positions because we've got a lot more depth.

I disagree too that just dropping in Izuchukwu for POM would be seamless - he's still a very raw talent. A lot of the things we look for from POM Izuchukwu hasn't shown yet. He's obviously a good athlete but he's far from a finished product.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286533#Comment_122286533

Just like to add to the converstaion on selection of Predergast. I think its very unusual.

Dropping two outhalves from the senior squad and picking their young Provincial colleague instead! Unprecedented in Irish rugby.

Its a great selection and underlines the boneheaded mismanagement of Ross, Harry, Frawley and Prendergast at Leinster. Recently more than ever.

I wouldn't pick him to play v SA.

But I'm sure there in no other head coach in the world better placed to know if a young outhalf will be ready or not.

(Look how skinny his legs are. Springbok like!)

Sexton at 24 was more developed. Had a full preseason and started pretty much all of Leinsters opening games that season (Will check back)

Not many remember Sexton didnt play in the A game v Tonga (Humphries and Keatley) and stayed on the bench v Australia prior to Fiji game.

The dogs on the street knew Sexton was ready for his debut, and then for SA (At home. Not Loftus Versfeld!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsvnUdq-Ox8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uM9vtH9UcRc

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286707#Comment_122286707

I disagree about the crowley vs prendergast experience comment

Of coarse Izuchukwu wont be the same player as pom.but he can slot in and fulfil the same role more athleticly at this point but as with anyone that's going to take that spot with vastly less nous but thats going to be the case woth any irish great being replaced

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286852#Comment_122286852

I disagree about the crowley vs prendergast experience comment

On what basis? It is not an opinion, it's just a fact. Both had 6 provincial starts, Crowley had about 80 more mins total (720 vs 640)

Paul Smeenus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286213#Comment_122286213

They play in two different positions.

One of which is viewed as much more crucial to the whole team's attack patterns and tactics than the other. We don't talk about how a blindside has managed a game.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286852#Comment_122286852

Disagree all you want - it doesn't change the facts. Crowley, before the EI tour, had played 16 times for Munster (5 starts), for a cumulative 482 mins. He had another three appearances for Munster (c. 200 mins, most of which was at 15), prior to being given the start against Australia. He'd made 3 Champions Cup appearances (1 start), for 117 mins.

That is entirely comparable to Prendergast's numbers at this point - Prendergast has played 18 games, 6 starts for 638 mins. He played three times in the Champions Cup for 69 mins.

Crowley's 5 starts came versus Ospreys, Ulster, Castres, Dragons and Lions.

Prendergast's 6 starts came versus Lions, Bulls, Scarlets, Ulster, Stormers & Connacht.

How anyone logical can claim that is not an incredibly comparable set of experience is beyond me.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286959#Comment_122286959

Yeah, absolutely, so if we want to evaluate him on his ability to direct an attack or manage a game, then that's fine. But evaluating him purely on people's uninformed impression/sense of his physical conditioning is utter nonsense.

The reason he's being accelerated is because of the scarcity of viable alternatives behind Crowley.

There wasn't an obvious other candidate to have in this squad - Harry Byrne has fallen away at Leinster post the SA tour. He didn't even make the trip to SA for the semi, and was on the outside by the end of the season. Ross Byrne isn't the answer.

The intention will be down there for Crowley to play deep into both tests (he's still finding his feet at this level too), with likely Frawley covering the bench from a 6-2 split, so Prendergast is purely being brought to get more training time into him and immerse him more in the squad.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287005#Comment_122287005

The reason he's being accelerated is because of the scarcity of viable alternatives behind Crowley.

And, let's be fair, cause he has shown exceptional potential. But both those things have had to align for this to happen.

aloooof

Loathe to get into this (and I don't necessarily think it's the wrong option) but there's also the point Crowley was only brought in when there were injuries to Sexton and Carbery, iirc?