Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287016#Comment_122287016

Sure, and Prendergast was only brought in cause I think they've given up on the Byrnes. Nothing ever happens in isolation. Though Crowley would have benched against Fiji regardless (which was his actual first cap!)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287016#Comment_122287016

Yeah, it's fair, and probably tbh the injury to Frawley too into the mix there, but the difference now is we're over 3 years away from the next RWC. There is time to experiment a little, and bringing in a high potential player as the likely third out half really isn't surprising to me.

aloooof

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287040#Comment_122287040

The one positive with 10 is that there's a good age profile (if not the depth). I think we need to see some flux elsewhere tho, made this point previously:

Aki, Henshaw, Lowe, JGP, Healy, VdF, Beirne, Murray, POM, Bealham, Conan, Furlong. That's a huge core of guys that are all 30+. We need to start seeing some flux to freshen it up.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287072#Comment_122287072

Yeah, I agree.

At centre, all of Henshaw (31), Aki (34) and McCloskey (31, 32 in Aug) are getting on a bit. Even Ringrose is 29. Osborne might get a chance in SA, but would be very hopeful that guys like Hugh Gavin and Jude Postlethwaite can deliver on their potential and come through.

LHP is the obvious position of concern. There is something farcical tbh on Cian Healy still being part of the squad. It seems they're trying to shift O'Toole to LHP, and hopefully that goes well, but other guys are struggling to emerge there. High hopes for Jack Boyle at Leinster to step up next season.

I'd be hopeful there will be some evolution in the squad in the November internationals.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286928#Comment_122286928

Three more starts not behind utterly dominant packs for the most part including a win away against the years top 14 champions

Plus an emerging ireland tour and an ireland a game versus new zealand that youve not included

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287072#Comment_122287072

I don't think it's a particularly bad age profile to be honest. Furlong and Bealham I wouldn't be too worried about age wise at their position. Obviously Healy is a concern but they have brought TOT for that reason.

POM will be phased out soon enough and there are several young players in this squad already in the backrow. Of all the spots I just don't see the need to worry here at all.

Second row is fine - Beirne will keep playing as long as he is our best lock, but its not like there aren't young locks in the squad so I don't see why there is anything to be worried about.

Centre is a bit of a concern alright, but even then they are starting to integrate younger players like Osborne.

The only real concern there is scrumhalf, and the competent younger players simply don't exist. A lot of is going to be riding on some coming through at the provinces.

ionadnapokot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287016#Comment_122287016

The 'Flying Fijians' took flight against Carbery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiwTPLTrJGk

and a sniper took out Sexton in the warm-up

a young whipper snapper came to the rescue off the bench to kick a penalty.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287115#Comment_122287115

Where are you getting 3 more starts from? He had the exact same number of starts as Sam does now and one of them was at 15. Also most of Prendergast's starts were rather famously not with an utterly dominant pack as three of them were in South Africa with a shadow squad.

You can argue that Crowley was a better player or whatever, but that their experience is broadly the same is simply a fact.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287133#Comment_122287133

Appearances as opposed to starts fair enough

Jump_In_Jack

The more I think about Sam Prendergast being selected as 3rd choice 10 in the squad, the more I think this is just an opportunity to see him in a training camp and tour environment. Farrell and Easterby will be keen to watch him. It means if they have a choice to make in the Autumn they’ll have a better idea of where they stand and he will also be a step closer in his preparation.

I don’t expect him to get any game time, so his position in the squad is much better used than giving it to Ross Byrne or Harry Byrne, as they’ve seen them plenty of times already.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287155#Comment_122287155

I'd be utterly shocked if he got any gametime, though at the end of the day he is only one injury away from it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287115#Comment_122287115

Three more starts not behind utterly dominant packs for the most part

What on earth has that got to do with it? An utterly nonsensical point.

Your inability to admit when you're incorrect on basic facts (like denying Crowley and Prendergast have broadly similar experience at the relevant points in their careers) and consistent need to just dig down on your own point makes this tiresome.

Prendergast played in Europe against Sale (at the time they were top of the Premiership, and had been finalists the year prior), Stade Francais (at the time 2nd in the Top14) and Leicester Tigers.

Your bias is simply not allowing you here to see the facts.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287155#Comment_122287155

This is pretty much exactly it.

Former Former Former

Tbh, any assessment of Prendergast - good or bad - is massively limited by the sample size of what we have seen. And Farrell knows this too, which must be a huge reason to bring him on tour and get a really good look at him, just like he did with Crowley on the EI tour when he had such a thin CV at Munster.

If it works out, great, we get another look at him in green in the Autumn. If not, then at least we've learned something and he goes back to Leinster to develop some more.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287205#Comment_122287205

I would add that we shouldn't forget he was in the training camp during the 6N.

Final point on Izuchukwu - and once again, to be clear, I'm not criticising his inclusion, but the progress he made to make it into a full Ireland squad is the thing that is actually really remarkable.

He's a 24 year old who played multiple AIL games this year for Ballynahinch (as recently as Round 12 - in late Jan), so he was fit and eligible for selection and simply not being picked by Ulster.

As recently as January you had people in the Ulster thread bemoaning the fact he had been given a 3-year deal with Ulster, stating he was "certainly behind Harry Sheridan" and noting how he hadn't progressed and how disappointed they were with how few minutes and opportunities he'd gotten (read the posts following this one):

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121683082#Comment_121683082

Obviously there has been a coaching change since then which has been significant, but even as recently as April I think people would have thought you were mad if you touted Izuchukwu for inclusion on this tour. He's still the far more surprising inclusion here if you step back from it all than the guy who is one of our most hyped prospects in years at a position of need.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287166#Comment_122287166

I mean youve not really acknowledged the emerging ireland tour or nz xv games either. If you feel that sale team was of the quality your suggesting then fair enough i dont no need to accuse people of bias though because they dont agree with you

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287267#Comment_122287267

See this is what is confusing, because plenty of you want to claim on the one hand that the EI tours are pointless games against terrible opposition, but now apparently those games against the Griquas etc are the defining difference that means Crowley had enough experience to warrant inclusion at that time, but Prendergast doesn't?

That Sale team was sitting on top of the Premiership at the time - that, once again, is something called a fact. Castres, when Jack Crowley played them in Jan 2022, were sitting third in the Top14, but had already lost two games in Europe (they went on to lose all four). You've called them Top14 champions a few times, but they lost the final that season, and the team Munster beat was heavily rotated (only three starters played v Munster and started the Top14 final that season).

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287267#Comment_122287267

The EI tour games are meaningless, it's about the squad environment, something Sam at least has already been in during the 6N.

The A game against NZ sure but he was only playing in that cause he was already in the Irish squad for the autumn.

Sam is unlikely to play in South Africa, but if he does it remains a simple fact that his experience is broadly similar to Crowley's and if and when he does play in the AIs he'll probably have more.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287332#Comment_122287332

And the sale team was heabily rotated but youve not mentioned that 🤔

Im happy enough to ignore the emerging ireland tour if your opinion is that its was a waste of time but id thought tbat was not the case

nerd69

If people feel their the same thats fair enough we will see how sam goes if he gets time vs sa, i hope it goes well for him

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287818#Comment_122287818

Yeah, but I'm not the one claiming anything special about it. You're the one over-talking the Castres game up.

This is how this discussion has gone :

I said: Crowley had very little material difference in terms of experience when he was given the start against Australia

You said you disagreed with that, but provided zero colour or analysis to support that.

I provided you with the statistics to show there is negligible difference in their starts, minutes, European appearances etc at the points we were discussing, and your response was some unintelligible thing about dominant packs, and then a made up piece about him winning away against the Top14 champions.

When those stats didn't serve your argument, you now claim the real difference maker was 33 mins off the bench for Ireland A, or the EI tour games. If that is really the sole extent of what you're basing your argument on then grand, but to me it's more than a bit of a reach.

Once again here - I'm not trying to do down Jack Crowley or claim he didn't deserve the opportunity he got when he got it, I'm just asking for a modicum of consistency in how we approach things.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122287902#Comment_122287902

Sure if you dismiss anything iv suggested then your likely to come to the conclusion that you where correct

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288105#Comment_122288105

You're not providing anything to support your opinion, just your own views, which I do think are less relevant than the facts I provided.

ersatz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286200#Comment_122286200

SA have insane depth, its a much bigger rugby population.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288130#Comment_122288130

Sure 3 more games played, more senior mins, an emerging ireland tour and an ireland a game arent facts. Lesson learned

clsmooth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286983#Comment_122286983

I really enjoy reading your posts; well thought out and backed up with facts. You’ve also got the patience of a saint. Great poster.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288333#Comment_122288333

If you're going to claim things as facts then please, at least, get them correct.

Before getting capped for Ireland, against Fiji, this was how many games Crowley had played for Munster:

16 total games, 7 starts (incl 1 at 15), and 682 total mins.

As of right now today, for Leinster, Sam Prendergast has the following:

18 total games, 6 starts, 638 mins.

At the point when Crowley was selected for the EI tour he had played 5 games less than Prendergast, had 1 less start and had around 156 less senior minutes. Nearly a third of all of Crowley's senior minutes had come in a three game span between the EI tour and the Fiji game.

There is absolutely no appreciable difference there, and the only other defining things are the EI tour and 33 mins off the bench for Ireland A.

If you are claiming that Crowley was sufficiently experienced to warrant an international cap but are saying Sam Prendergast doesn't have enough experience to justify even being in the squad then you're being a hypocrite.

nerd69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122288393#Comment_122288393

Ok so their the same and im a hypocrite 🤷‍♂️

But then we agree the emerging ireland tours a waste of time.

nerd69

And we both hope he gets a chance to play on this tour because he is well able, hes proven it with his equal levels of experience with jack crowley when he was capped absolutely nothing to be concerned about with himget him on the pitch