Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sydthebeat

penybont exile wrote: »

This is a nonsense anyway ..... they should stump up their tax just like the rest of us!

all artists should get tax exemptions

penybont exile

sydthebeat wrote: »

all artists should get tax exemptions

..... nice gig if you can get it.

Must look into how I get my job re-classified.

The Inbetween is mine

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I wonder if one of the Leinster lads will look to go to Munster to fight Coombes for the 8 jersey. Conan, Doris, Soroka, Deegan, even Penny,

I'd say at this point it's probably high on the IRFU's list.....
Much more likely than trying to import a high earner from Aus or SA..

Bridge93

How does it work? Like I've heard the vague premise that players get a tax rebate if they stay etc but how does it practically work? Do the IRFU cover the tax bill or do Revenue give them some sort of statutory exemption? I'm intrigued by this.

KBurke85

Bridge93 wrote: »

How does it work? Like I've heard the vague premise that players get a tax rebate if they stay etc but how does it practically work? Do the IRFU cover the tax bill or do Revenue give them some sort of statutory exemption? I'm intrigued by this.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/tax-professionals/tdm/income-tax-capital-gains-tax-corporation-tax/part-15/15-01-36.pdf

Information and examples here

dublinman1990

I'm honestly stunned to hear about CJ's retirement from the Irish rugby team this evening. He has been a massively influential presence for Irish & Munster rugby; even though I follow Leinster. His statement about his family was so refreshing to read as it was written so beautifully. The amount of pressure that he has had to take on while playing rugby in Ireland & being on the family farm in SA must have taken a huge toll on his personal life with his family. I can't fault him for expressing that viewpoint. He has every right to say it when it affects him so deeply. I hope CJ has a great retirement with a lot of great memories being made by him. He has been a fantastic ambassador to Irish rugby. He will be missed by us & by Irish fans the world over. Hon' CJ.

irishbucsfan

Bridge93 wrote: »

How does it work? Like I've heard the vague premise that players get a tax rebate if they stay etc but how does it practically work? Do the IRFU cover the tax bill or do Revenue give them some sort of statutory exemption? I'm intrigued by this.

It would be illegal for the IRFU to cover anyone’s tax bill!

Anyway, this comes up a lot. At the end of the day, there’s a lot we’ll never know about the tax affairs of these guys anyway. Based on recent high profile court cases, the sports stars earning money in Ireland who need a closer look aren’t even representing or based in Ireland! That’s where the real juicy money seems to be.

Dual wheels

dublinman1990 wrote: »

I'm honestly stunned to hear about CJ's retirement from the Irish rugby team this evening. He has been a massively influential presence for Irish & Munster rugby; even though I follow Leinster. His statement about his family was so refreshing to read as it was written so beautifully. The amount of pressure that he has had to take on while playing rugby in Ireland & being on the family farm in SA must have taken a huge toll on his personal life with his family. I can't fault him for expressing that viewpoint. He has every right to say it when it affects him so deeply. I hope CJ has a great retirement with a lot of great memories being made by him. He has been a fantastic ambassador to Irish rugby. He will be missed by us & by Irish fans the world over. Hon' CJ.

I’d be surprised if he doesn’t join back up with the bulls but best of Luck to him
It must have been impossible trying to run the family farm whilst living in limerick hon the kid

sebdavis

TO be honest he can do what he likes, quit rugby or back to SA and play for a club. He has been a great servant to Irish rugby over the years!!

Zzippy

sydthebeat wrote: »

all artists should get tax exemptions

Bullsh1t artists? Cos we could put in a group claim...

Dickie10

i really fear we could get a tanking saturday but sure hopefully we go out and throw the ball around at least try and put on a show and get a couple of tries , the fear is we get stuck in the headlights and england just pummell us. looking back at the late 90s and early 2000s , christ we got some thumpings off england. i always remember the 2001 victory, i had assumed we were gaining parity with england around then, but looking up youtube, its some horror show. 46-6 in 97 in landsdowne rd. 50-18 in twickenham in 2000, 42-6 in 2002 and 43-6 in 2003. didnt have the stomach to watch the 98 and 99 games v england. but my God the rugby england were playing was a joy yo watch even in 97 unbeliivable off loading. Ireland were absolutely disgraceful in 97 though. check out 2002 england v ireland evryone needs to see johnny in action , a thing of beauty.

Anyway prob going to be a long day saturday , i wonder will my prediction be as good as last week. i will go ireland 18-35 england

Natterjack from Kerry

sebdavis wrote: »

TO be honest he can do what he likes, quit rugby or back to SA and play for a club. He has been a great servant to Irish rugby over the years!!

I dont know if servant is quite the right word. He was damn well paid, and this type of scenarios show up how commercial rugby is. He wasnt giving anything to Ireland or Munster. But here because he bet his prospects and earning power were greater than in SA. It was a mutually beneficial business deal between the IRFU and a gun for hire who is now sailing away.
Which is not at all to say isnt a fine player, decent man, committed professional, was a strong part of a many Irish successes and was the deserving pick from those available to Irish and Munster coaches.
But he wasnt motivated by serving Irish rugby or achieving something for his country, family, community that he had dreamed of all his life - he delivered what he was paid to do.

sebdavis

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

I dont know if servant is quite the right word. He was damn well paid, and this type of scenarios show up how commercial rugby is. He wasnt giving anything to Ireland or Munster. But here because he bet his prospects and earning power were greater than in SA. It was a mutually beneficial business deal between the IRFU and a gun for hire who is now sailing away.
Which is not at all to say isnt a fine player, decent man, committed professional, was a strong part of a many Irish successes and was the deserving pick from those available to Irish and Munster coaches.
But he wasnt motivated by serving Irish rugby or achieving something for his country, family, community that he had dreamed of all his life - he delivered what he was paid to do.

Seems the bitterness is strong in some people.

If he was just after money he could of earned a lot lot more in France or England. Plus a hell of a lot nicer than standing in the pi**ing rain in Limerick :-)

Natterjack from Kerry

sebdavis wrote: »

Seems the bitterness is strong in some people.

If he was just after money he could of earned a lot lot more in France or England.

But came to Limerick because he just knew they are lovely people, and helping Ireland was a more noble cause than France or England? Sure.

thomond2006

#BREAKING
Professional athlete in paid to play rugby shocker.

The Inbetween is mine

thomond2006 wrote: »

#BREAKING
Professional athlete in paid to play rugby shocker.

It's not James Lowe is it?

sebdavis

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

But came to Limerick because he just knew they are lovely people, and helping Ireland was a more noble cause than France or England? Sure.

You don't seem to have a point now?
he came to play rugby and get paid.
He also stayed and was a great servant to Munster and Ireland.
As I said if he just wanted to be paid the most amount possible he would be in South of France.

Maybe tell us exactly what problem you have with him?

sebdavis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

It's not James Lowe is it?

The answer is always James Lowe

Buer

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

It's not James Lowe is it?

I'm not tackling that.

#JamesLoweThings

kilns

Feels a little weird that a player is retiring playing for Ireland because he wants to return home

but fair play to him, a great servant who gave it his all in every game he played for Ireland and Munster

Hopefully Doris's injuries can clear him and he gets a good consistent run.

Our pack going forward looks very exciting A back row of Beirne, Dorris and Connors with Leavy hopefully backing them up looks very promising with Henderson, Ryan and Baird backing them up and a front row with Furlong back to his best, we just need to unearth a top loosehead and Kelleher needs to keep improve his throwing

kilns

kilns wrote: »

Feels a little weird that a player is retiring playing for Ireland because he wants to return home

but fair play to him, a great servant who gave it his all in every game he played for Ireland and Munster

Hopefully Doris's injuries can clear him and he gets a good consistent run.

Our pack going forward looks very exciting A back row of Beirne, Dorris and Connors with Leavy hopefully backing them up looks very promising with Henderson, Ryan and Baird backing them up and a front row with Furlong back to his best, we just need to unearth a top loosehead and Kelleher needs to keep improve his throwing

From what I've seen, I wouldn't be surprised if Dan Sheehan overtakes Kelleher before the next World Cup.

It's not often I would get excited at the potential of a player but there's just something about Sheehan.

Richie_Rich89

tgdaly wrote: »

I don't think we need wholesale changes for England, apart from the enforced injuries I think one or 2 tweaks would make a huge difference to the team. I think it would be a big mistake to bring POM in, apart from how I rate him as a player he hasn't played in 6 weeks and the back 5 in the pack has gone ok.

I think Baird is well deserving of a shot to start now with Dillane on the bench. If the plan is to move Beirne back to 2nd row then Conan should come into the back row and maybe Ruddock on the bench

I think Lowe needs some time to go away and work on his defending, I think whatever about his long term prospects in green, they won't be helped by him being further exposed against England and the mental fallout of same on the player. There's temptation to throw Stockdale back in but I think Larmour should start and ease Stockdale back in from the bench.

Healy, Herring, Furlong
Baird, Henderson
Beirne, Stander, Connors
Gibson-Park, Sexton
Henshaw, Farrell
Larmour, Keenan, Earls

Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Porter, Dillane, Conan, Murray, Burns (although Carbury would be great!!), Stockdale

I think Farrell at 12 and Henshaw at 13 would be more potent in attack compared to the other way round. Farrell's lack of an outside break would be a limiting factor if he's playing outside a truck-it-up 12. If he was playing outside an outhalf-type 12 then you'd want him straightening teh line, but outside Henshaw I think you'd need some rapier to go with the bludgeon.

Richie_Rich89

Dickie10 wrote: »

i really fear we could get a tanking saturday but sure hopefully we go out and throw the ball around at least try and put on a show and get a couple of tries , the fear is we get stuck in the headlights and england just pummell us. looking back at the late 90s and early 2000s , christ we got some thumpings off england. i always remember the 2001 victory, i had assumed we were gaining parity with england around then, but looking up youtube, its some horror show. 46-6 in 97 in landsdowne rd. 50-18 in twickenham in 2000, 42-6 in 2002 and 43-6 in 2003. didnt have the stomach to watch the 98 and 99 games v england. but my God the rugby england were playing was a joy yo watch even in 97 unbeliivable off loading. Ireland were absolutely disgraceful in 97 though. check out 2002 england v ireland evryone needs to see johnny in action , a thing of beauty.

Anyway prob going to be a long day saturday , i wonder will my prediction be as good as last week. i will go ireland 18-35 england

2002: 45-11
2003:42-6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Ireland

kilns

By the way the media and he himself is talking it seems POM is going to come straight back into the team on Saturday which to me is a real backwards step. Saturday is a great opportunity to give Baird a start against top class opposition, yes he is young and raw but why not give him the opportunity, you will not learn anything new by pushing Beirne back to second row and POM into 6.

It would be crazy to take a guy out of the 6 jersey who has been playing so well there and frankly offers much more than POM and having the the chance to develop a real talent in the second row giving us great depth there

I would have Baird and Henderson with Dillane on the bench

Beirne, Stander and Connors in the back row with Conan on the bench, bringing a potential impact with ball carrying and pace.

sydthebeat

I think the last 3 games have shown that we are in no way reliant on POM for his lineout prowess.

personally id prefer to see Beirne to 4, CJ to 6 and Conan to 8

sebdavis

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think the last 3 games have shown that we are in no way reliant on POM for his lineout prowess.

personally id prefer to see Beirne to 4, CJ to 6 and Conan to 8

The lineout was a shambles with POM in it, so I never got the "we pick him for the lineout".

That been said he was one of the form backrow players in Ireland prior to the 6 nations so deserved to get picked that day. Should he start against England? I wouldn't but with him rolled out already to the press to say how sorry he was for the Welsh game I think we can take it that in all probability he will start the game,.

Wasn't it BOD who said whoever does press during the week is the starter and thats the big mistake Gatland done on the Lions when he sent BOD out before dropping him

sebdavis

Not sure if I said it on this forum or another but I seen Henderson as a real option as captain and this tournament has only reinforced that opinion. He has been excellent. Ryan is still very young and wouldn't be the worst thing to make him vice captain and make Hendo captain for the next few years.

Sexton said he was captain for the first year of Farrells management, which turned into a bit of a mess so it seemed he just continued. Should we now at the end of this 6 nations make the decision to pick the captain for the next WC and too many question over Sexton to pick him

KaneToad

sebdavis wrote: »

You don't seem to have a point now?
he came to play rugby and get paid.
He also stayed and was a great servant to Munster and Ireland.
As I said if he just wanted to be paid the most amount possible he would be in South of France.

Maybe tell us exactly what problem you have with him?

As fans we're blinded by our players supposed commitment to the cause. They are often not as committed as the fan. They are professionals, this is their job.

There is not a contributor to this thread who wouldn't take their own careers in the direction most beneficial to them/their family in the same manner as Stander. Best of luck to him.

kilns

sebdavis wrote: »

Not sure if I said it on this forum or another but I seen Henderson as a real option as captain and this tournament has only reinforced that opinion. He has been excellent. Ryan is still very young and wouldn't be the worst thing to make him vice captain and make Hendo captain for the next few years.

Sexton said he was captain for the first year of Farrells management, which turned into a bit of a mess so it seemed he just continued. Should we now at the end of this 6 nations make the decision to pick the captain for the next WC and too many question over Sexton to pick him

Henderson has been terrific and a real leader and its further proof of one of OMahoneys so called stronger traits of "leadership" not being missed, so Henderson is the obvious call to be the next captain, sooner rather than later, because even though Sexton is still out best 10, he is definitely not the player he used to be and if Ireland want to change how they play will a Sexton at the end of his career want to change how he plays?

It may be painful but it would buy Farrell time but I would be of the opinion of trying to build now over the next 18 months to 2 years and removing Sexton, Murray, POM, Earls and Healy from the squad

Dubinusa

So if POM comes back in, Connors misses out? Can't see POM making as many tackles as Connors. I think we would need our best tacklers on the field!
I think its a mistake. The back row has been very good. I'd prefer Stander at 6 and Conan to come in at 8.
Moving Beirne back to the 2nd row I suppose makes sense. He's probably better at 6. More available around the breakdowns, where his best work is.

Ardillaun

He’s going out at the top which I’m sure more would like to have done in retrospect. Have the boards boffins put together a highlight reel yet? Thanks so much, CJ, and alles van die beste.

Dubinusa

Dubinusa wrote: »

So if POM comes back in, Connors misses out? Can't see POM making as many tackles as Connors. I think we would need our best tacklers on the field!
I think its a mistake. The back row has been very good. I'd prefer Stander at 6 and Conan to come in at 8.
Moving Beirne back to the 2nd row I suppose makes sense. He's probably better at 6. More available around the breakdowns, where his best work is.

Where is this coming from? Seems an awful decision.

mun1

Looks like POM will be back in at 7 for England . Much needed boost to the team.

Teams should look like
1. Kilcoyne
2. Herring
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Baird
6. Beirne
7. POM
8. CJ
9. Murray
10.sexton
11. Earls
12. Aki
13. Henshaw
14. Stockdale.
15. Keenan.

Baird, Conan, VDF, Healy, Kelleher, larmour & park should add some energy after 60 mins

sebdavis

Joanna Gifted Meadow wrote: »

Where is this coming from? Seems an awful decision.

POM got wheeled out to the media to get himself back in the good books. Fairly certain he will start but I would expect Hendo/Beirne will be in second row and POM take Beirne spot in backrow.....

sebdavis

mun1 wrote: »

Looks like POM will be back in at 7 for England . Much needed boost to the team.

Teams should look like
1. Kilcoyne
2. Herring
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Baird
6. Beirne
7. POM
8. CJ
9. Murray
10.sexton
11. Earls
12. Aki
13. Henshaw
14. Stockdale.
15. Keenan.

Baird, Conan, VDF, Healy, Kelleher, larmour & park should add some energy after 60 mins

If we know anything about this management team they will not start Baird.
More like
Healy, Herring, Furlong, Beirne, Hendo, POM, Connors, Standar, JGP, Sexton, Earls, Henshaw, Farrell(Aki/Henshaw), Larmour, Keenan

Thats what I think they will go with.....the backs more questions than the forwards

kilns

mun1 wrote: »

Looks like POM will be back in at 7 for England . Much needed boost to the team.

Teams should look like
1. Kilcoyne
2. Herring
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Baird
6. Beirne
7. POM
8. CJ
9. Murray
10.sexton
11. Earls
12. Aki
13. Henshaw
14. Stockdale.
15. Keenan.

Baird, Conan, VDF, Healy, Kelleher, larmour & park should add some energy after 60 mins

I presume you are being sarcastic?

kilns

sebdavis wrote: »

If we know anything about this management team they will not start Baird.
More like
Healy, Herring, Furlong, Beirne, Hendo, POM, Connors, Standar, JGP, Sexton, Earls, Henshaw, Farrell(Aki/Henshaw), Larmour, Keenan

Thats what I think they will go with.....the backs more questions than the forwards

POM and Murray coming straight back into the team would really sum up this management team. Only in Ireland would you take currently the best performing 6 in the six nations out of his position and move him to a position where he may be less effective and bringing a back a scrumhalf in who's USP is getting slow ball out to his backs, when your back line is already under performing

mun1

kilns wrote: »

I presume you are being sarcastic?

What, you think just because someone doesn’t agree with your viewpoint on team selection, they are being sarcastic ?

if it wasn’t England then yes he might not be back in, but it is and he should be brought back in for this match.
Our pack is too soft without him, he offers more to the team than ruddock, Connors, Conan, etc.

That’s what I think.

Of course we are not obliged to agree with each other

mun1

sebdavis wrote: »

If we know anything about this management team they will not start Baird.
More like
Healy, Herring, Furlong, Beirne, Hendo, POM, Connors, Standar, JGP, Sexton, Earls, Henshaw, Farrell(Aki/Henshaw), Larmour, Keenan

Thats what I think they will go with.....the backs more questions than the forwards

Farrell doesn’t bring enough to the team . Wouldn’t have him in the six nations squad to be honest.

sydthebeat

POM will be stale and not match fit for a game of this intensity. I think it would be madness putting him back in ahead of in form players.

And not a hope Murray starts. JGP right now is very instrumental in how we are playing.

kilns

mun1 wrote: »

What, you think just because someone doesn’t agree with your viewpoint on team selection, they are being sarcastic ?

if it wasn’t England then yes he might not be back in, but it is and he should be brought back in for this match.
Our pack is too soft without him, he offers more to the team than ruddock, Connors, Conan, etc.

That’s what I think.

Of course we are not obliged to agree with each other

You are making your point for me

Why is our pack too soft without him? What does he do to make the pack "harder"? He is not as physical as any of the back row we had against Scotland. Lets take Connors, the starting 7, what does he offer more to the team than him? Physicality? Tackling? Carries?

mun1

kilns wrote: »

You are making your point for me

Why is our pack too soft without him? What does he do to make the pack "harder"? He is not as physical as any of the back row we had against Scotland. Lets take Connors, the starting 7, what does he offer more to the team than him? Physicality? Tackling? Carries?

Simple , at this point in time POM is a better rugby player than conners. Even the Irish coaches would agree with this point.
Conners is a fine player (as is VDF, leave etc) and has some qualities that POM doesn’t have at this stage of his career. But on balance , he’s a better player

Might be a bit rusty after his layoff (and that could be enough to tip the scales against him) but will also be fresh and chomping at the bit to get stuck into England, which all true Irish supporters want to see.

POM has Better aggression in contact.
POM has Better dominant tackler.
POM Better as the line out option in attack and defence
POM is Better leadership candidate
POM is Better carrier than conners.

POM has proved this time and time again.

I’m sure you understand that All good international packs need hard edged players.

No need to be so aggressive in your responses . It’s not as if either of us will have to face England this weekend .
I’d be very happy to see POM start and for Ireland to win on Saturday .

phily2002

kilns wrote: »

You are making your point for me

Why is our pack too soft without him? What does he do to make the pack "harder"? He is not as physical as any of the back row we had against Scotland. Lets take Connors, the starting 7, what does he offer more to the team than him? Physicality? Tackling? Carries?

This, all 3 are bigger tacklers and carriers.
I've never got the POM brings a hard edge tbh. He might get a turnover or lineout steal but in the contact area he is quite weak.

kilns

mun1 wrote: »

Simple , at this point in time POM is a better rugby player than conners. Even the Irish coaches would agree with this point.
Conners is a fine player (as is VDF, leave etc) and has some qualities that POM doesn’t have at this stage of his career. But on balance , he’s a better player

Might be a bit rusty after his layoff (and that could be enough to tip the scales against him) but will also be fresh and chomping at the bit to get stuck into England, which all true Irish supporters want to see.

POM has Better aggression in contact.
POM has Better dominant tackler.
POM Better as the line out option in attack and defence
POM is Better leadership candidate
POM is Better carrier than conners.

POM has proved this time and time again.

I’m sure you understand that All good international packs need hard edged players.

No need to be so aggressive in your responses . It’s not as if either of us will have to face England this weekend .
I’d be very happy to see POM start and for Ireland to win on Saturday .

Ah here I am not getting into the POM bashing that this thread usually descends into but some of things you have mentioned are ridiculous and simply wrong - for a start, POM hardly tackles to be even considered a dominant tackler, he hardly carries too, our line out has been brilliant in his absence, leadership is not an issue and leaders dont get themselves sent off and blow a chance of a six nations title.

How do you quantity a hard edge? Is it sly little digs here and there because he is usually physically smaller than his direct opponents so cannot out physical them to prove his hardness

As I said lets not drag into a POM bashing exercise and agree to disagree

Dubinusa

POM doesn't dominate any collisions. Doesn't make many tackles. He's a great jackaler and line-out option. I think Curry would get the better of him. But, who knows? England have been as poor as us this time around.
If we get smashed, I am for looking at Farrells future. After this many matches, we have gone nowhere, imo. There's not too much from this tournament that we can pin our hats on. Pretty poor tournament for us.

TomsOnTheRoof

Really looking forward to POM getting selected.

mun1

mun1 wrote: »

POM has Better dominant tackler.

This can't be a comparison with Connors. It can't be.

Natterjack from Kerry

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

But he wasnt motivated by serving Irish rugby or achieving something for his country, family, community that he had dreamed of all his life - he delivered what he was paid to do.

I mean, you just can't go around saying that as if it's fact, when what you're talking about is the inner workings of a man's motivation. How the hell would you know what motivated him?

In any event, if one was to engage with your post, you appear to dismiss the idea that the sense of gratitude (which CJ Stander himself has expressed) to Irish rugby for giving him the chance of a career at the highest level of the sport* was an obvious and powerful motivating factor for this player as his career progressed. The only people who can not acknowledge this are those who are dead to any sense of loyalty and comradeship themselves.

(*outside Leinster :pac::pac::pac::pac:)

mfceiling

mun1 wrote: »

POM has Better aggression in contact.
POM has Better dominant tackler.
POM Better as the line out option in attack and defence
POM is Better leadership candidate
POM is Better carrier than conners.

Rugby Top Trumps.

No arguments, case closed.

AdamD

POM a dominant tackler?

Brilliant