Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa

Whatever about Byrne and Burns, they both look a bit out of their depth. Maybe they need a run of games to get into some kind of flow. I don't think Burns should be the place kicker. He looks like he lacks confidence, imo. Byrne doesn't seem to understand attacking schemes and just shovels on the ball. I thought he would have done better in this regard.
The option after Sexton doesn't look too promising, tbh Hopefully, both Byrne and Burns can adapt and become decent options.

LuckyLloyd

ersatz wrote: »

Overall yesterday did show a lot of improvement in forward play which has been poor now for a couple of years, maybe that's POC or maybe it's payoff for stuff going on for longer but it's very welcome. The bluntness in attack is the next challenge for the coaches and the team. There was definitely a head space thing yesterday that expressed itself as a lack of ambition or aggression in attack, especially on turnover ball. One example here were JGP fields a French box kick and he and Lowe do their thing up the sideline. What's interesting is that Henshaw and (I think) Kelleher are really well positioned to support the break but don't act with the required urgency to get onto GP's shoulder for an inside pass or any potential offload when he's tackled. He looks around for someone but there's noone there. That's a head thing that rarely happens with NZ or France or even Italy. They make the most of any break.

https://twitter.com/ultimaterugby/status/1361069081730961408

Two New Zealand lads playing on instinct and continuing to try and make something happen. A beautiful bit of play.

Louis Friend

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Two New Zealand lads playing on instinct and continuing to try and make something happen. A beautiful bit of play.

Both have been rightly exposed as villains from a defensive perspective.

A lad flinging a pass behind his back does not a summer make...

Niallof9

Louis Friend wrote: »

Both have been rightly exposed as villains from a defensive perspective.

A lad flinging a pass behind his back does not a summer make...

Give me that over some of the turgid stuff the other lads are playing. As was pointed out of this break, the tracking from other players was rubbish.

Also great to see Farrell talk of bringing back the big guns for Italy. Christ almighty.

LuckyLloyd

Louis Friend wrote: »

Both have been rightly exposed as villains from a defensive perspective.

A lad flinging a pass behind his back does not a summer make...

That's fine, I don't disagree. But it was a lovely piece of instinctual attacking rugby. We might find other issues with their performance and still be able to appreciate the above clip on its own.

Interested Observer

https://www.the42.ie/sexton-murray-ireland-italy-5355516-Feb2021/

Seems like we could be in line for our worst 6N since the tournament began, with a bunch of problems left unresolved. If we only win one game surely Farrell can't survive that?

Niallof9

Interested Observer wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/sexton-murray-ireland-italy-5355516-Feb2021/

Seems like we could be in line for our worst 6N since the tournament began, with a bunch of problems left unresolved. If we only win one game surely Farrell can't survive that?

He shouldn't but he will.

Anything other than a comprehensive win over Italy should set the alarm bells ringing. For me the alarm bells rang in November when he or the IRFU refused to use the games for development.

He's clearly indicating Sexton and Murray come back in, which leaves little room to blood guys in the next while. Falling into the exact same trap that damned us before.

It would drive you nuts. He'll get savaged as well for it. Its hilarious cause if he showed some balls people would back him.

Its doubly sickening when you know that the Italian halfbacks are 19 and 20 respectively.

joficeduns1

I'm not one for calling for Farrell's head at this stage but surely we use Italy as a chance to keep some (playing) momentum up for some players. Get Casey (ed. Not Cooney) on, swap the 10s, change our wings and give the lads some freedom to play the ball and string some scores together.

I can't see any benefit to playing Murray or Sexton against Italy, just for them go out and do what they've done almost their whole careers against Italy.

ersatz

Louis Friend wrote: »

Both have been rightly exposed as villains from a defensive perspective.

A lad flinging a pass behind his back does not a summer make...

It's not a fling behind his back though, he knows Lowe is there, takes the defender out and passes. It's an offload. They may even have communicated the intention in that moment when they can see each other. It was one of only 3 or 4 line breaks and it is the kind of play that test teams with any ambition must be prepared to make.

wittycynic

Interested Observer wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/sexton-murray-ireland-italy-5355516-Feb2021/

Seems like we could be in line for our worst 6N since the tournament began, with a bunch of problems left unresolved. If we only win one game surely Farrell can't survive that?

Hence he'll name his strongest possible team to try to run in a win with a decent margin and take a little bit of pressure off.

Italy has come at a good time for him. We'll win in Rome and he'll get two weeks of column inches about all the green shoots of progress we saw against the Azzurri.

We could quite easily finish this tournament with only one win, but I sincerely doubt the IRFU have the fortitude to make the necessary call to replace him. Changing coaches mid-contract is expensive and they'll see it out, like Kidney, to avoid that.

LuckyLloyd

The way the pack competed was promising and our superiority at the scrum and line out very encouraging. The path forward from here imo is to experiment at 9 and 10, work Stockdale back in on the wing and phase Earls out, give Healy and Stander a couple of games off.

More broadly, we need to try and use the Italy and Scotland games to reduce the amount of kicking from hand and try and work through some more ball in hand variations.

They have been two close losses, but it presents a real opportunity to reorient ourselves for the future. Let's seize it.

thomond2006

Is there an assumption that Cooney is some young fella?! He's a year younger than Murray.

Buer

John Cooney is 31 years old this season. People are fixated on him. He is not going to be first choice for Ireland now or in the future.

We need to build for the future and play others but we're not going to do that by bringing in a guy who is 13 months younger than Murray and, whilst he is a fine player, is very much in the same bracket of performance as a number of scrum halves.

If we want to develop, we use the Italy game to play Casey and HB with Casey starting alongside RB/BB and then Murray and HB coming in.

We're not going to do that based on Farrell's comments but, if we are going to try and develop other options and build a team for the longer term then lets do that and not focus on things like Cooney coming into the team or the likes of putting Tadhg Beirne to 6 unless these guys are absolutely clearly the best person for that position.

thomond2006

Italy's halfbacks are 19 and 20 respectively. Italy are on a hiding to nothing and know they will finish bottom, so it's not as if Casey and/or HB will be up against vastly experienced opponents.

If Murray and Sexton must have a run out before the final two matches, release them to the provinces or put them on the bench in Rome. Starting both would be a waste.

LuckyLloyd

Casey starting alongside Byrne and then swapping to Murray / HB is a good shout imo. I'd love to see that.

Honestly, I'd love to see us just start Casey and Harry Byrne from the off against Italy, but I accept that's extreme.

CMcsporty

Casey and Harry Byrne Irish game time now makes sense!

Pity it's 4 months too late

bilston

Buer wrote: »

John Cooney is 31 years old this season. People are fixated on him. He is not going to be first choice for Ireland now or in the future.

We need to build for the future and play others but we're not going to do that by bringing in a guy who is 13 months younger than Murray and, whilst he is a fine player, is very much in the same bracket of performance as a number of scrum halves.

If we want to develop, we use the Italy game to play Casey and HB with Casey starting alongside RB/BB and then Murray and HB coming in.

We're not going to do that based on Farrell's comments but, if we are going to try and develop other options and build a team for the longer term then lets do that and not focus on things like Cooney coming into the team or the likes of putting Tadhg Beirne to 6 unless these guys are absolutely clearly the best person for that position.

There aren't that many calling for Cooney's inclusion. I'd have him in the squad, but not ahead of Casey, Casey looks to be the future. Its understandable that Farrell was reluctant to throw him on on Sunday given the circumstances of the match in the last 10-15 minutes, but he needs a chance against Italy. Italy's 9, who looks a decent player, is 19. No reason why Casey, who is years older and has played Chanpions Cup rugby, can't get a start in that match IMO. Especially if he has Sexton at 10.

As for Beirne, personally I would play him at 6 given Doris and O'Mahony are unavailable. I dont care what anyone says Henderson and Ryan is clearly our best second row pairing, but Beirne deserves to be in the side. Ruddock had some decent moments against France, but wasn't that visible for a lot of the game. So if Ryan is back I'd consider Beirne at 6. Its not like Ruddock is the future in the same way as Cooney isn't. In an ideal world Gavin Coombes would get a shot, but that seems unlikely.

Interested Observer

Did Casey even get on the pitch against France? I don't really think we need to look any further, it ain't happening.

Richie_Rich89

I think what you have to remember is there was an excellent coach in charge before Farrell who took Ireland to a new level.

- first time at no. 1 ranking (even though that was an absolute farce)
- first win(s) against the All Blacks
- first win in South Africa (albeit against the worst Springbok team in memory)
- first Grand Slam of professional era won while playing away to England and France
- first professional era Test series victory in the Southern Hemisphere against NZ, Australia or South Africa
- first back-to-back 6N Championship titles of professional era

It's a hard act to follow. If you look at Ireland's results over the history of the International Championship they're the worst of any team other than the Italians. Maybe Ireland are just returning to their natural level?

Even if you think Farrell isn't getting the best out of the players available, which is a very believable argument, I think he still needs more time. His first 6N wasn't too bad, and the red card in Cardiff could have changed things completely.

thomond2006

CMcsporty wrote: »

Casey and Harry Byrne Irish game time now makes sense!

Pity it's 4 months too late

Casey and Byrne started 5 games in the Pro14 over the Six Nations/ANC window. That was more useful than being stuck in camp and barely playing a la Shane Daly.

bilston

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Casey starting alongside Byrne and then swapping to Murray / HB is a good shout imo. I'd love to see that.

Honestly, I'd love to see us just start Casey and Harry Byrne from the off against Italy, but I accept that's extreme.

I'd settle for Casey and Sexton to be honest. We know there are 2 or 3 young 10s in the works, but we just happen to be in that 12 month period where they aren't ready yet and the Sexton's powers are waning and the inbetween players aren't good enough. In an ideal world Jackson and Carbery would be the choices now. So I thibk we might as well accept where we are and at least give Caseyba chance alongside Sexton, and then this time next year, hopefully even by November, H.Byrne will be ready, and Carbery might even be back, and perhaps Healy or Crowley could be worth look too. We could be spoilt for choice!

thomond2006

bilston wrote: »

I'd settle for Casey and Sexton to be honest. We know there are 2 or 3 young 10s in the works, but we just happen to be in that 12 month period where they aren't ready yet and the Sexton's powers are waning and the inbetween players aren't good enough. In an ideal world Jackson and Carbery would be the choices now. So I thibk we might as well accept where we are and at least give Caseyba chance alongside Sexton, and then this time next year, hopefully even by November, H.Byrne will be ready, and Carbery might even be back, and perhaps Healy or Crowley could be worth look too. We could be spoilt for choice!

The entertainment of watching Casey barking orders at Sexton is enough for me.
Let's do it.

bilston

Interested Observer wrote: »

Did Casey even get on the pitch against France? I don't really think we need to look any further, it ain't happening.

No, and while the various WhatsApp groups that I was on where pretty vocal in their demands for his introduction, I think the longer it went on, the more understandable it became that Farrell wasn't going to make that gamble. But I'd definitely start him against Italy. But you're probably right, if Murray is back, Casey probably won't even make the 23.

Niallof9

wittycynic wrote: »

Hence he'll name his strongest possible team to try to run in a win with a decent margin and take a little bit of pressure off.

Italy has come at a good time for him. We'll win in Rome and he'll get two weeks of column inches about all the green shoots of progress we saw against the Azzurri.

We could quite easily finish this tournament with only one win, but I sincerely doubt the IRFU have the fortitude to make the necessary call to replace him. Changing coaches mid-contract is expensive and they'll see it out, like Kidney, to avoid that.

except that won't happen. He'll get savaged if he names them and if he ends up with only 1 from 5 having not developed any depth he'll lose the backing of a good chunk of support. If we hammer them with the same team as France, people will just say so what. The papers won't give him the column inches you think they will. People will see its just papering over deep fissures.

He's now in a no win situation as many predicted given his monumental **** up in November. The fact that we have a must win against a ****e Italian side fielding a 19 and 20 year old half back combination should depress any fan of Irish rugby.

the Conan thing was another example of the confusion or lack of balls in camp.

bilston

For Italy I think it might be time to give Kelleher a start at hooker. I'd start Furlong and maybe rest Porter, who has been exceptional, as I said above I'd start Casey and I probably give Larmour a run too, probably in place of Earls, just to give Lowe more test minutes. If Ryan is back, I'd move Beirne to 6.

15 Keenan
14 Larmour
13 Ringrose
12 Henshaw
11 Lowe
10 Sexton
9 Casey
1 Healy
2 Kelleher
3 Furlong
4 Henderson
5 Ryan
6 Beirne
7 Van Der Flier
8 Stander

I'd love to see the likes of Tom O'Toole, Ryan Baird and Gavin Coombes on the bench (and H.Byrne, but he isnt in the squad), but I think this is all probably pie in the sky stuff anyway.

CMcsporty

thomond2006 wrote: »

Casey and Byrne started 5 games in the Pro14 over the Six Nations/ANC window. That was more useful than being stuck in camp and barely playing a la Shane Daly.

it was.
But it wouldn't if they played against Wales, Scotland & Georgia!

If you are not willing to put these lads in during a meaningless (completely meaningless tournament - no WR pts) game, with no crowds and play near centurion halfbacks you gain nothing.

Look what your left with - Park playing 80mins v France. With Casey sitting on the bench.
All because Farrell didnt give them their wings when he should.

Nothing ventured, Nothing gained

Niallof9

CMcsporty wrote: »

it was.
But it wouldn't if they played against Wales, Scotland & Georgia!

If you are not willing to put these lads in during a meaningless (completely meaningless tournament - no WR pts) game, with no crowds and play near centurion halfbacks you gain nothing.

Look what your left with - Park playing 80mins v France. With Casey sitting on the bench.
All because Farrell didnt give them their wings when he should.

Nothing ventured, Nothing gained

but not only that, now its made picking new combos against a youthful Italy risky. This is what all of the critics were giving out about way back in November and of course many of us were shouted down or told to wait and see. In the words of Gerry and Reddan...c'est la helicopter view.

theVersatile

Niallof9 wrote: »

In the words of Gerry Reddan...c'est la helicopter view.

I'm sorry but what on Earth are you on about?

CMcsporty

Whos Gerry Reddan?
Gerry Thornley + Eoin Reddan?

molloyjh

For all peoples fixation on "the future", I think there's a lot of ignoring what is right in front of our faces. Scotland is a must win game. We have no momentum and no cohesion right now. The Italy game is our only opportunity to gain either of those things ahead of the trip to Scotland. Its all well and good for people on here to make grand claims about what is important and what isn't when they have nothing on the line. But most of those same people would be on here outraged if we lose to Scotland and end up 5th in the table.

Farrell does have to plan for "the future". But he also has to manage the here and now too. His job depends on the latter as much, if not more, than the former. We need some momentum, some confidence and some cohesion. Guys like Ryan, Murray and Sexton will need to play if fit. Otherwise we go to Scotland with them on little game time and having once again swapped and changed the team, robbing it of any form of cohesion.

On that basis, the team I can see getting selected for Italy (fitness permitting) is something like:

Healy Kelleher Furlong
Henderson Ryan
Stander Conan VDF

Murray Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Lowe Keenan Larmour

Heffernan, Kilcoyne, O'Toole, Beirne, Coombes, Casey, HByrne, Conway

There is scope to bring in the lads at 9 and 10 once the game has been put to bed. And there's scope to look at someone like Coombes too. But this game is primarily going to be about getting our proverbial s**t together ahead of a must-win in Murrayfield. Its far from ideal, as this is essentially where we were at the end of the Autumn Nations Cup. But had we won against Wales then maybe things would have been different. That red card and the subsequent absences have essentially prevented us from moving forward to any great degree really.