Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Niallof9

theVersatile wrote: »

I'm sorry but what on Earth are you on about?

Oh just saying we should take the helicopter view about it all..

Look i don't know what it means either..

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

For all peoples fixation on "the future", I think there's a lot of ignoring what is right in front of our faces. Scotland is a must win game. We have no momentum and no cohesion right now. The Italy game is our only opportunity to gain either of those things ahead of the trip to Scotland. Its all well and good for people on here to make grand claims about what is important and what isn't when they have nothing on the line. But most of those same people would be on here outraged if we lose to Scotland and end up 5th in the table.

Farrell does have to plan for "the future". But he also has to manage the here and now too. His job depends on the latter as much, if not more, than the former. We need some momentum, some confidence and some cohesion. Guys like Ryan, Murray and Sexton will need to play if fit. Otherwise we go to Scotland with them on little game time and having once again swapped and changed the team, robbing it of any form of cohesion.

On that basis, the team I can see getting selected for Italy (fitness permitting) is something like:

Healy Kelleher Furlong
Henderson Ryan
Stander Conan VDF

Murray Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Lowe Keenan Larmour

Heffernan, Kilcoyne, O'Toole, Beirne, Coombes, Casey, HByrne, Conway

There is scope to bring in the lads at 9 and 10 once the game has been put to bed. And there's scope to look at someone like Coombes too. But this game is primarily going to be about getting our proverbial s**t together ahead of a must-win in Murrayfield. Its far from ideal, as this is essentially where we were at the end of the Autumn Nations Cup. But had we won against Wales then maybe things would have been different. That red card and the subsequent absences have essentially prevented us from moving forward to any great degree really.

And we hockey Italy with our strongest team....so what? tell us what happened the last few times we did as you suggest and used the cohesion excuse? Doing it against Samoa did **** all for the New Zealand game. And sure as **** didn't work last year with Italy before the France game.

I mean you'r e not wrong about the red card but unfortunately its 0 from 2, and its exactly why November was so awful and wasteful. And the fact we are fearing an Italy side playing an inexperienced 9 and ten themselves is utterly shocking.

UAEguy2020

Im still Farrell in but he seriously needs to sort out the backline. He really could do looking towards Super Rugby to find the right coach to come in and fix the backline, ideally he could change the mindset on how we attack because right now we look like we are passing the ball for the sake of passing it.

I’ve said it before but what I’d give to see Tony Brown hired as Ireland’s backs coach.

Therefore the coaching team would be

HC : Andy Farrell
AC : Mike Catt
DC : Simon Esterby
FC : Denis Fogerty/Paul O’Connell
BC : Tony Brown

That would be a great ticket.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

And we hockey Italy with our strongest team....so what? tell us what happened the last few times we did as you suggest and used the cohesion excuse? Doing it against Samoa did **** all for the New Zealand game.

I mean you'r e not wrong about the red card but unfortunately its 0 from 2, and its exactly why November was so awful and wasteful. And the fact we are fearing an Italy side playing an inexperienced 9 and ten themselves is utterly shocking.

Genuinely, who is fearing an Italian side. Who has even suggested the possibility we dont win.

molloyjh

Its also worth noting that it's not exactly very productive to bring young, inexperienced lads into a set up that is misfiring. It just brings in more uncertainty and actually puts them under more pressure. At the end of the day, we need to be giving these guys a chance to succeed, not just to play. And that will be easier when the rest of the team is performing. Otherwise you're just piling pressure on young lads to fix something that they simply cannot fix. To perform in a set-up that's tying one hand behind their back from the start. We need the foundations to be there to give these guys some sort of platform. It isnt there right now.

CMcsporty

On Stockdale & Conway are they playing for Ulster & Munster this wkend?

I presume Casey & Harry Byrne will be starting for the provinces this wkend?

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

Its also worth noting that it's not exactly very productive to bring young, inexperienced lads into a set up that is misfiring. It just brings in more uncertainty and actually puts them under more pressure. At the end of the day, we need to be giving these guys a chance to succeed, not just to play. And that will be easier when the rest of the team is performing. Otherwise you're just piling pressure on young lads to fix something that they simply cannot fix. To perform in a set-up that's tying one hand behind their back from the start. We need the foundations to be there to give these guys some sort of platform. It isnt there right now.

Then why was Craig Casey on the bench? Why are other sides playing 19-21 years olds? what is so unique about the Irish set up.

This is the same tired excuse time after time

theVersatile

I'd select for Italy:

Healy
Kelleher
Furlong
Ryan
Henderson
Ruddock
Connors
Conan
Murray
Sexton
Larmour
Aki/Stu
Farrell
Conway
Keenan

Heffernan
Killer
Tom O'Toole
Ultan
CJ
Casey
Burns
AN/Other

I think with the way Paulie has stripped back and simplified our line out, it's worth giving Kelleher a crack of the whip; he's showing a lot more ball in hand than during Autumn (tho maybe the impact sub role suits him). Take a look at Heffernan, give Herring a rest. I'd rest Healy but bar Killer, who might not even be fit, there's no suitable LH behind him that I'd trust. Rest Beirne and CJ, give Connors a longer run instead of JVDF, see more of Ruddock - see if Conan can break out of his consistent averageness at this level.

Don't mind MurrSex starting but Casey and Burns should get at least twenty minutes off the bench. Nothing against JGP, just think it would be criminal to call Casey into the squad and not give him minutes. See two of the other three centres and give Conway a run to keep his minutes up. I'd start Jacob at 15 if he was fitand have Keenan in 23. Again, nothing against Lowe or Earls, just want to see other options.

I think that's fairly decent rotation while still keeping the team sufficiently strong no?

bilston

CMcsporty wrote: »

On Stockdale & Conway are they playing for Ulster & Munster this wkend?

I presume Casey & Harry Byrne will be starting for the provinces this wkend?

Stockdale is still injured

Niallof9

irelandrover wrote: »

Genuinely, who is fearing an Italian side. Who has even suggested the possibility we dont win.

Andy Farrell and mollyh it seems.

Italy have a 19 and 20 year halfback combination. They are utterly ****.

We did the cohesion argument thing many times before and its fell apart. We did it in Japan, we did it last year. Against Italy last year the same scenario.

Beating Italy by 50 points with the Sexton and Murray will give Farrell no wiggle room at all. Lose to Scotland and the whole tournament has been a disaster. Beat Scotland and lose to England people will still shrug. Win all three people will give him a pass but when Sexton at 37 years old is leading us into 2023 people will look back and go yeah why didn't we use november 20 and those Italy games. it's a criminal waste.

Personally i'd actually go again with JGP and Burns or Ross (even though i don't rate them) it would send a message. I'd have casey on the bench. CG and HB could be too much i'll agree. Or pair Casey with Sexton.

Podge_irl

Hold the phone here.

Billy Burns came on after 28 mins against Wales in Nov. He started against Georgia. Ross Byrne started against England.

Shockingly, it hasn't made them much better players all of a sudden.

Podge_irl

Niallof9 wrote: »

Then why was Craig Casey on the bench? Why are other sides playing 19-21 years olds? what is so unique about the Irish set up.

This is the same tired excuse time after time

In Italy's case probably because they are desperate and haven't won a 6N game in 5 years.

CMcsporty

Mike Catt's innovation...Call Lancaster

https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1361613928833417217?s=20

bilston

theVersatile wrote: »

Don't mind MurrSex

Me neither...but I can't convince the wife

theVersatile

CMcsporty wrote: »

Mike Catt's innovation...Call Lancaster

https://twitter.com/brettruganalyst/status/1361613928833417217?s=20

Nothing here really. People steal moves all the time. Pretty much every Joe strike play was stolen from Super Rugby.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

Andy Farrell and mollyh it seems.

Italy have a 19 and 20 year halfback combination. They are utterly ****.

We did the cohesion argument thing many times before and its fell apart. We did it in Japan, we did it last year. Against Italy last year the same scenario.

Beating Italy by 50 points with the Sexton and Murray will give Farrell no wiggle room at all. Lose to Scotland and the whole tournament has been a disaster. Beat Scotland and lose to England people will still shrug. Win all three people will give him a pass but when Sexton at 37 years old is leading us into 2023 people will look back and go yeah why didn't we use november 20 and those Italy games. it's a criminal waste.

Personally i'd actually go again with JGP and Burns or Ross (even though i don't rate them) it would send a message. I'd have casey on the bench. CG and HB could be too much i'll agree. Or pair Casey with Sexton.

Mollyh said we need cohesion ahead of the Scotland game. And that Italy is the opportunity to do that. What about that indicates he is fearful of Italy?

You just seem to be making things up now that you can argue against.

Niallof9

Podge_irl wrote: »

Hold the phone here.

Billy Burns came on after 28 mins against Wales in Nov. He started against Georgia. Ross Byrne started against England.

Shockingly, it hasn't made them much better players all of a sudden.

and why was that?

Only for injury.

Yeah Billy Burns and Ross aren't good enough imo.

Anyway there's no getting through to some of you on here it is what it is. Its history repeating itself.

bilston

Niallof9 wrote: »

Andy Farrell and mollyh it seems.

Italy have a 19 and 20 year halfback combination. They are utterly ****.

We did the cohesion argument thing many times before and its fell apart. We did it in Japan, we did it last year. Against Italy last year the same scenario.

Beating Italy by 50 points with the Sexton and Murray will give Farrell no wiggle room at all. Lose to Scotland and the whole tournament has been a disaster. Beat Scotland and lose to England people will still shrug. Win all three people will give him a pass but when Sexton at 37 years old is leading us into 2023 people will look back and go yeah why didn't we use november 20 and those Italy games. it's a criminal waste.

Personally i'd actually go again with JGP and Burns or Ross (even though i don't rate them) it would send a message. I'd have casey on the bench. CG and HB could be too much i'll agree. Or pair Casey with Sexton.

Ah I dont think that's what Molloyj is saying, he is aaying we need to build cohesion ahead of Scotland, if anything it means he sees Italy as the perfect opportunity to do that...which would be the opposite of fearing them...that's my reading of it anyway.

Personally I'd still want to start Casey (I know it won't happen), but the argument for starting the team you want to play against Scotland is solid enough.

Niallof9

irelandrover wrote: »

Mollyh said we need cohesion ahead of the Scotland game. And that Italy is the opportunity to do that. What about that indicates he is fearful of Italy?

You just seem to be making things up now that you can argue against.

Just like the cohesion in the last Italy game and then when we lost to France. Building cohesion in my book is just another excuse. Another irish rugbyism that is proven to be a load of ****e. We have always used a few games to try one or two combos. And we have nothing to fear from Italy. Anyway i'm really arguing that at least if you don't pick Casey keep JGP. Maybe Sexton needs to blow off the cobwebs. But its part of a much larger mismanagement of the situation.

Anyway whatever there's too many people denying the reality here. I can't argue against it. I give up.

The takeaway seems to be we should be happy to blow Italy out of the water for the sake of cohesion which in effect won't be any true barometer against an improving Scotland away. We've been here before. I remember the exact same arguments in Japan. Fair enough.

molloyjh

irelandrover wrote: »

Mollyh said we need cohesion ahead of the Scotland game. And that Italy is the opportunity to do that. What about that indicates he is fearful of Italy?

You just seem to be making things up now that you can argue against.

Nothing new there to be fair. I mean, why read what's written and make an effort to understand it when you can just make it up in order to make people who don't agree with everything you say sound completely unreasonable or daft....

Buer

bilston wrote: »

As for Beirne, personally I would play him at 6 given Doris and O'Mahony are unavailable. I dont care what anyone says Henderson and Ryan is clearly our best second row pairing, but Beirne deserves to be in the side. Ruddock had some decent moments against France, but wasn't that visible for a lot of the game. So if Ryan is back I'd consider Beirne at 6. Its not like Ruddock is the future in the same way as Cooney isn't. In an ideal world Gavin Coombes would get a shot, but that seems unlikely.

I would agree on the lock partnership as well as Beirne being deserving of a spot. But sometimes sport is unfair. I'd be happy to see the starters empty the tank and Beirne coming on thereafter.

I believe at flanker, Beirne and Ruddock are relatively similar. Both carry a lot of untidy ball but aren't particularly dynamic in open play. Beirne is the bigger breakdown threat, Ruddock probably a more impactful carrier in the tight exchanges with respect to sucking in defenders and presenting the ball (he does that werid spin around in contact, backing into the tackler which makes it near impossible to turn hims over). It makes sense to me to move Beirne to 6 on a one off basis if this was a stronger opponent or up against a pack like England's.

But, if we're looking to develop with an eye to the longer term, I don't believe Beirne will ever realistically be looked at as a flanker long term at test level. He's started there twice in second tier games for us. I think he has started 2 games there for Munster in his 3 seasons back in Ireland. With that in mind, I think starting him at 6 against Italy would be a waste.

I'd prefer to see some sort of development of other options there. Coombes to come in, Conan to go to 8 and Stander move or even Baird to come in. All of those players offer a far more dynamic carrying option in open field which is something we're desperately lacking.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Just like the cohesion in the last Italy game and then when we lost to France. Building cohesion in my book is just another excuse. Another irish rugbyism that is proven to be a load of ****e.

Anyway whatever there's too many people denying the reality here. I can't argue against it.

I dunno about that Niall...

Personally think I'd like to see some evolution towards Casey / Harry Byrne in the Italy. I'd like to see at least one get at least some meaningful minutes off the bench, not just a 5-10 minute cameo at the end.

From there, the Scotland game is must win. And if we then saw a better performance against England than we have done in the last 3-4 times we've played them, I'd be happy enough.

Ultimately, the last 2 games were 1 score games. I don't think things are as bad as some people are painting. Scrum, lineout, maul and defense have become really strong platforms. Now we need to see some more evolution in attack.

theVersatile

The Ireland coaching group will retain a 24 man panel for the two day mini-camp on Thursday and Friday this week at the IRFU High Performance Centre at the Sport Ireland Campus.

There were no additional injury concerns following the match against France and the players (Burns, Healy, Henderson) who were removed for HIAs will follow the appropriate protocols this week.

12 players are returning to their provincial bubbles to avail of game time in the Guinness PRO14 this weekend – Bundee Aki, Ultan Dillane, Dave Heffernan (Connacht), Ryan Baird, Ross Byrne, Jack Conan (Leinster), Craig Casey, Andrew Conway, Shane Daly, Chris Farrell (Munster) and Stuart McCloskey, Tom O’Toole (Ulster).

The three players who provided specialist cover at the Aviva Stadium on Sunday – Harry Byrne, John Cooney and Eric O’Sullivan– have also returned to their respective provinces.

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

Nothing new there to be fair. I mean, why read what's written and make an effort to understand it when you can just make it up in order to make people who don't agree with everything you say sound completely unreasonable or daft....

In fairness you routinely dismiss others position on here.

Fair enough i retract that you were saying you fear Italy. I get your cohesion point. there is truth to it and logic. Scotland game becomes even more important than back in the WC>.

But in my eyes its just another from of conservatism that is rife in Irish rugby. I think its a shame.

And it would be great if in 2023 and we most likely go out at the usual round, that people can look back honestly about it all. There will be mitigation; luck, injuries, Carbery etc. But can we say with all honesty that Joey would be playing equals.

Podge_irl

Niallof9 wrote: »

and why was that?

Only for injury.

Yeah Billy Burns and Ross aren't good enough imo.

Anyway there's no getting through to some of you on here it is what it is. Its history repeating itself.

So? There are legions of people here claiming that if only we had played player XYZ in the autumn we wouldn't be in this position but we wasted the time.

Burns and Byrne played most of Nov tournament and it did eff all. Coaches know when players aren't good enough and they don't need to see them play international rugby to know that. Nor do they magically get better for the experience.

molloyjh

If X happens people will Y. Because its all about what people think. It couldn't possibly about the team, the coaches, the finances of the IRFU, the evolution of the way we want to play or anything else centered in or around, you know, rugby. Nope, it's all about what people think. That's what's important here. Just like playing guys in Test matches so that punters can see what they are capable is what Test matches are for. To hell with training, where coaches get a good look at them. The people need to know. That's what's important. Oh and "facts". Let's not forget about "facts".

Some people really do have a very inflated sense of what they are worth or where their position is in the grand scheme of things. But the reality is that the likes of Sexton, Farrell and the IRFU aren't really that fussed what people like me think. Nor should they be. They'll measure their success and have their success measured by a much smaller collection of relevant individuals based on factors that we consider as well as factors we dont. None of us here are so special as to have definitive knowledge about any of these things, no matter how much we try to frame it differently.

Well except for Buernard obviously.....

Murray Kinsella:

Good news for Munster and Irish rugby.

Joey Carbery is off Munster's rehab list and is now "increasing his training load further as he continues his return from an ankle injury."

Timely.

OldRio

If we revert to both Sexton and Murray starting against Italy it will say a lot about the coaching ticket.

Niallof9

Yeah look Joey is a big factor in this. Ross and Burns aren't good enough for this level.

And i'm all for Sexton. He's a former team mate and clubman. He's the best ever 10 we've produced. Seeing him jog off into the sunset will be a sad day and just make me realise how old i am. He hasn't declined ala ROG. He's far more athletic etc.

Jackson and Carbery problems ****ed it all up so there is mitigating factors.

Its Murray i can't get my head around.

But playing them both against Italy will be a red flag for me. And others too. Many in the print media, tv etc. You'd swear some of us were lone voices. It won't be worth the grief long term for the mythical cohesion it will bring.

sydthebeat

OldRio wrote: »

If we revert to both Sexton and Murray starting against Italy it will say a lot about the coaching ticket.

Personally I'd have no qualms about playing Casey and H Byrne versus Italy and still be confident of putting 40 on them, they are actually that poor.

Most line breaks against them invariably ends up in scores and right now Harry Byrne has a better ability of all 10s bar Sexton to pick holes in a disorganised defense.