Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

awec

They're both going to play against Italy because the coaches are desperate for a big win. It isn't that surprising.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

Just like the cohesion in the last Italy game and then when we lost to France. Building cohesion in my book is just another excuse. Another irish rugbyism that is proven to be a load of ****e. We have always used a few games to try one or two combos. And we have nothing to fear from Italy. Anyway i'm really arguing that at least if you don't pick Casey keep JGP. Maybe Sexton needs to blow off the cobwebs. But its part of a much larger mismanagement of the situation.

Anyway whatever there's too many people denying the reality here. I can't argue against it. I give up.

The takeaway seems to be we should be happy to blow Italy out of the water for the sake of cohesion which in effect won't be any true barometer against an improving Scotland away. We've been here before. I remember the exact same arguments in Japan. Fair enough.

That's a valid argument and i'd agree with it. Id like to see Burns and JGP and Byrne and Casey on the pitch against Italy. I don't think Murray and Sexton need to blow off the webs after a 3 week layoff.

bilston

Interested Observer wrote: »

Murray Kinsella:



Timely.

Huge news...I was just thinking about Irish 10s who can dominate matches...Humphreys did it, ROG did it, Sexton did it, and if you think back to Scotland in 2019, Joey Carbery did it as well. This is what separates those guys to players like Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. Influencing matches and winning them at test level. Getting Joey back would be huge, but it will be a long journey. It would be great to see him play for Munster in the Spring.

Niallof9

Yeah it isn't surprising but many would find it depressing.

bilston

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah look Joey is a big factor in this. Ross and Burns aren't good enough for this level.

And i'm all for Sexton. He's a former team mate and clubman. He's the best ever 10 we've produced. Seeing him jog off into the sunset will be a sad day and just make me realise how old i am. He hasn't declined ala ROG. He's far more athletic etc.

Jackson and Carbery problems ****ed it all up so there is mitigating factors.

Its Murray i can't get my head around.

But playing them both against Italy will be a red flag for me. And others too. Many in the print media, tv etc. You'd swear some of us were lone voices. It won't be worth the grief long term for the mythical cohesion it will bring.

Don't know about red flag...because there would be some logic to it as previously mentioned... but I would be disappointed for sure, and if we then lose the next two matches we would definitely be having to search hard for reasons to back the management. But as I've said before I'll wait until after the tournament....

Sanjuro

OldRio wrote: »

If we revert to both Sexton and Murray starting against Italy it will say a lot about the coaching ticket.

That they'd do pretty much what any coaching ticket under the IRFU would do in the same circumstance? The IRFU are their bosses and they bank absolutely everything on the Six Nations. There's not a chance in hell they'd let the national team experiment in this situation. I don't agree with that, but I can understand it.

awec

bilston wrote: »

Don't know about red flag...because there would be some logic to it as previously mentioned... but I would be disappointed for sure, and if we then lose the next two matches we would definitely be having to search hard for reasons to back the management. But as I've said before I'll wait until after the tournament....

:eek:

If we get beat by an Italian team that have shipped 91 points in 2 games then it's time to pack it in.

Former Former Former

Murray and Sexton are absolutely going to play if they're fit. It doesn't really say anything about the coaching ticket tbh, I don't believe any other coach would do differently.

bilston

awec wrote: »

:eek:

If we get beat by an Italian team that have shipped 91 points in 2 games then it's time to pack it in.

Hahaha...sorry...I meant the following two matches...:D (Scotland and England)

bilston

Former Former Former wrote: »

Murray and Sexton are absolutely going to play if they're fit. It doesn't really say anything about the coaching ticket tbh, I don't believe any other coach would do differently.

Not sure about that..plenty of countries rotate a bit against Italy....we aren't talking about 8 changes here...just one or two. From memory Joe used to rotate against Italy quite a fair bit

Former Former Former

bilston wrote: »

Not sure about that..plenty of countries rotate a bit against Italy....we aren't talking about 8 changes here...just one or two. From memory Joe used to rotate against Italy quite a fair bit

I guess the problem in this instance is that if you leave Murray and Sexton out for the Italy game, then they will be five weeks without any rugby when we go to Scotland.

I'm not sure Joe rotated much against Italy. There was always speculation here that he would then crushing disappointment when he didn't.

sydthebeat

Former Former Former wrote: »

I guess the problem in this instance is that if you leave Murray and Sexton out for the Italy game, then they will be five weeks without any rugby when we go to Scotland.

I'm not sure Joe rotated much against Italy. There was always speculation here that he would then crushing disappointment when he didn't.

sexton doesnt need the italy game time

there has been many incidents of him coming back to play well after similar layoffs.

also... we have a bench that they can sit on

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

sexton doesnt need the italy game time

there has been many incidents of him coming back to play well after similar layoffs.

also... we have a bench that they can sit on

Even the best players get rusty. Look at the Sarries players for England as an example.

thomond2006

Sexton and Murray could have been released to the provinces if they needed gametime and were going to be left out of the Rome game.

Interested Observer

Sanjuro wrote: »

That they'd do pretty much what any coaching ticket under the IRFU would do in the same circumstance? The IRFU are their bosses and they bank absolutely everything on the Six Nations. There's not a chance in hell they'd let the national team experiment in this situation. I don't agree with that, but I can understand it.

We've already ****ed up our 6N. We can't win it, we're not getting any nice payout, our tournament is done. Beyond that, we see this argument all the time that imo just doesn't make sense, that is the games are too important to try anything therefore we have to keep picking the same failing team over and over.

sydthebeat

gatland never had an issue rotating for the italy

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/wales-italy-team-aled-davies-15792405

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

gatland never had an issue rotating for the italy

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/wales-italy-team-aled-davies-15792405

Was that not the second game of the 6N? The issue of a five week layoff doesn't arise there.

sydthebeat

prawnsambo wrote: »

Even the best players get rusty. Look at the Sarries players for England as an example.

theyre in camp, and they can bench.....

not rusty

CMcsporty

bilston wrote: »

Huge news...I was just thinking about Irish 10s who can dominate matches...Humphreys did it, ROG did it, Sexton did it, and if you think back to Scotland in 2019, Joey Carbery did it as well. This is what separates those guys to players like Ross Byrne and Billy Burns. Influencing matches and winning them at test level. Getting Joey back would be huge, but it will be a long journey. It would be great to see him play for Munster in the Spring.

When he comes back (fingers crossed) Nucifora/Farrell/Munster are going to have a big boys debate.

Carbery (25) is the best 10 option. But there are 2 important factors to consider.

His injury profile really begs the question if he should be moved to 15
Munster have 3 young 10 options who all need game time.
Healy (21/22), Crowley (21) and Flannery (21/22)

Joey should have gone to Ulster!

sydthebeat

prawnsambo wrote: »

Was that not the second game of the 6N? The issue of a five week layoff doesn't arise there.

giving younger players test level 6N experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

fear of sexton or murray being "rusty"

Sanjuro

Interested Observer wrote: »

We've already ****ed up our 6N. We can't win it, we're not getting any nice payout, our tournament is done. Beyond that, we see this argument all the time that imo just doesn't make sense, that is the games are too important to try anything therefore we have to keep picking the same failing team over and over.

There's half a million pounds the difference in each final place in the Six Nations table. And given the current financial situation, the IRFU is going to want to secure every position possible. Especially now considering how the first two games went. I don't think we're going to lose to Italy. And I'd certainly be looking to blood Casey and H Byrne. Maybe Coombes and Baird. But given the pressure that's going to be coming down from the IRFU, I cant see the coaches putting out anything but their strongest available 15.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

sexton doesnt need the italy game time

there has been many incidents of him coming back to play well after similar layoffs.

also... we have a bench that they can sit on

But it's not just about them as individuals. We are effectively in the exact same position as we were ahead of the Scotland game in the ANC. We need to show a bit of form and actually have something to build on for the Scotland game. We can't go into that with the first team not having played together in 5 weeks and the majority of them having lost 2 games with big question marks over the side as a whole. It would be a recipe for potential disaster. We have to arrest the slide and Italy is the best and possibly only real opportunity to do that.

People keep talking talking about Italy as a P14 side so we can blood players against them. But if they really are that bad then what exactly is the benefit of bloodong players against them? What does anyone actually learn? And if it ends up having a net negative effect on the side then is it counterproductive?

If we blood new guys vs Italy and win, then go on to lose against Scotland and England where do we go from there? Do we fire the coaches? They did what people wanted and it ended up backfiring so that would be harsh. But then we go into the summer or the Autumn or whenever in exactly the same position we are in now as well. We will have advanced not all as a side in months.

At the end of the day we need to get our foundations right. We can build from there. If we do so and still lose to Scotland and England then maybe we do need to have a serious conversation about the coaches, but people seem to want us to put building blocks on sand. We haven't nailed our game plan yet. Swapping out our half backs for guys with a handful of provincial appearances won't fix that. Let's get the foundations right and build from there. That doesnt mean waiting until we're playing well to blood guys btw. I have Casey abd Harry Byrne on the bench for Italy, so we can do both together to some degree.

Niallof9

You keep saying this Molloy. yet it was the exact same argument all those times before. The last Italy match before that, the warm ups for the WC, the Samoa game. Even against Russia we had some people saying the same stuff. The ANC? you have to be joking right? that was a mickey mouse tournament completely wasted by Farrell.

Its beyond tiring and its as clear as day its a failed policy and its going to cost us.

If as some people predict that the 9 and 10 is CM and JS, rather than even just JGP or Casey, knives will be out for Farrell. Hockey Italy , scrape a win none of that will matter a jot. They are so **** and playing a youthful team themselves its unlikely to have any reflection on the Scottish match either way. But What does anyone learn playing a full strength side? This didn't work last time. It didn't work in the WC or before it. Yeah play a youthful side, we win, we learn alot about our options. We back the squad, build depth. Create a buzz, give the fans something to be cheery about.
The fact that some people think the opposite will give him green shoots and media praise is deluded. The exact opposite is already building.

Lose and it would be a blow to confidence, for sure, but many would look at it just the same as many on here are looking at it so far. Red card, terrific France. The same excuses would be found. We backed youth. And the last one would be just as acceptable. Winning against Scotland to give us 2 in 5 while having not really built depth, given that was one of our major failings in not one but two World Cups would be inexcusable. It would be downright negligible.

Farrell is backing himself into a corner here through selection and tactics. We can use all the excuses we want but the last time Ireland lost their two opening games was 1998 and France haven't won in Dublin in ten years. These are the realities.

And no if AF did as you suggest and lost against Scot i would give him a pass. The red against Wales, bravery against Italy in selection. A furious last stand against England is nearly a given.

Anyway you say you don't fear Italy fine, but fear or conservatism in general is clear from your posts. I would reckon many would give him a pass if he took one or two risks. I certainly would. Its doing neither and continuing on failed methods that has me done with Farrell.

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

But it's not just about them as individuals. We are effectively in the exact same position as we were ahead of the Scotland game in the ANC. We need to show a bit of form and actually have something to build on for the Scotland game. We can't go into that with the first team not having played together in 5 weeks and the majority of them having lost 2 games with big question marks over the side as a whole. It would be a recipe for potential disaster. We have to arrest the slide and Italy is the best and possibly only real opportunity to do that.

People keep talking talking about Italy as a P14 side so we can blood players against them. But if they really are that bad then what exactly is the benefit of bloodong players against them? What does anyone actually learn? And if it ends up having a net negative effect on the side then is it counterproductive?

If we blood new guys vs Italy and win, then go on to lose against Scotland and England where do we go from there? Do we fire the coaches? They did what people wanted and it ended up backfiring so that would be harsh. But then we go into the summer or the Autumn or whenever in exactly the same position we are in now as well. We will have advanced not all as a side in months.

At the end of the day we need to get our foundations right. We can build from there. If we do so and still lose to Scotland and England then maybe we do need to have a serious conversation about the coaches, but people seem to want us to put building blocks on sand. We haven't nailed our game plan yet. Swapping out our half backs for guys with a handful of provincial appearances won't fix that. Let's get the foundations right and build from there. That doesnt mean waiting until we're playing well to blood guys btw. I have Casey abd Harry Byrne on the bench for Italy, so we can do both together to some degree.

murray and sexton are not our foundations going forward... they are currently a crutch we are leaning on because when they are not there we fall over.

im sorry but Italy are a poor test level team. Im very confident that starting H Byrne AND Craig Casey will still result in a victory for us.... but id be happy with one starting and one benching with teh reserves to get meaningful game time.

you talk about form and building for the scottish game but in the same breathe say that whats the use of blooding new players against italy .... which is it?

we're not winning this competition. We cant. Right now i wouldn't be confident of beating scotland with murray and sexton starting either.

posters talking about the €500k difference between 3rd and 4th.... but they should think longer term. Would we be in a better position to win the competition next year or the year after by testing out our pretenders at this level this year? 'Bird in the hand' here is so conservative, especially when its obvious that we are just kicking the can down the road. i always though fortune favoured the brave.

as said already gatland had no problem at all blooding new players again italy in the six nations.... even in a year they won a grand slam. there only so many times people can argue against irish rugby being ultra conservative before the train hits them in the face.

OldRio

Former Former Former wrote: »

Murray and Sexton are absolutely going to play if they're fit. It doesn't really say anything about the coaching ticket tbh, I don't believe any other coach would do differently.

I couldn't disagree more.

sydthebeat

OldRio wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more.

100%

theVersatile

Ye did see the team England out out v Italy right? Full strength as possible. Didn't see too many giving out about it

Niallof9

theVersatile wrote: »

Ye did see the team England out out v Italy right? Full strength as possible. Didn't see too many giving out about it

Thats whataboutery of the highest order. England are at a completely different stage to us and in a different position. Their backline is World Class and many of the players will be Lions starters. And same thing if England lose any more matches, Jones will be under pressure as well. They also lost their opening game to a weaker side. We had the red card excuse.

And nobody is saying play the under 20s. Its the 9 and 10. Personally to be realistic and to accept one of Molloys arguments, i say back JGP and Burns or Ross. Give JGP the chance to stake a serious claim for Scotland. Sexton would be fine coming back in cold.

I'd love to give Casey and H Byrne a shot but its not going to happen. It should have been done in NOv and then we wouldn't be having this debate. But even i can see the risk with that. One or the other, yeah but both? Not going to happen.

sydthebeat

theVersatile wrote: »

Ye did see the team England out out v Italy right? Full strength as possible. Didn't see too many giving out about it

do you see any discernible difference in the two situations of england playing them and us playing them?

theVersatile

sydthebeat wrote: »

do you see any discernible difference in the two situations of england playing them and us playing them?

I can see plenty of similarities anyways - with underperforming players in key positions (especially 9 and 10) and a must win situation after a worrying loss with a lack of heads up rugby being played. They're very similar situations.