Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

prawnsambo

sydthebeat wrote: »

giving younger players test level 6N experience >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

fear of sexton or murray being "rusty"

Screwing up the boards page display does not negate making an invalid comparison.

sydthebeat

theVersatile wrote: »

I can see plenty of similarities anyways - with underperforming players in key positions (especially 9 and 10) and a must win situation after a worrying loss with a lack of heads up rugby being played. They're very similar situations.

well there's one very obvious difference, which 100% played into the englsih selection that doesnt play into ours.....

sydthebeat

prawnsambo wrote: »

Screwing up the boards page display does not negate making an invalid comparison.

like any good flanker, ill do anything to cause a bit of niggle

Niallof9

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2021/02/16/ireland-release-players-to-get-guinness-pro14-game-time/

I mean looking at the list the argument extends further. Are we really not doing the same thing as before?

I mean what has Earls done so far to be ahead of COnway still? Why isn't Aki getting any gametime? Farrell, McCloskey destined to be bit part players. Dillane as well. Is VDF really able to hold his hand up to be an automatic starter?

I was focusing on the 9 and ten, but really its a much deeper problem. Cooney has been done to death but you wonder how demoralised he must be.

theVersatile

sydthebeat wrote: »

well there's one very obvious difference, which 100% played into the englsih selection that doesnt play into ours.....

Not sure what you're getting at (but maybe I'm just being slow). The availability of George Ford?

Pudsy33

theVersatile wrote: »

Ye did see the team England out out v Italy right? Full strength as possible. Didn't see too many giving out about it

Loads of England fans gave out about it! Mainly not keeping Ollie Lawrence in the team.

sydthebeat

theVersatile wrote: »

Not sure what you're getting at (but maybe I'm just being slow). The availability of George Ford?

seriously??

the huge difference is England have still the ability to win the competition.

and you can certainly take it that that situation played into their team selection.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

murray and sexton are not our foundations going forward

I never said they were. I'm sorry syd, but I'm getting really pissed off with people making no attempt to read what's written. Read my post again and see what I mean by foundations, because you've completely missed the point. Too many people here are too eager to disagree and argue instead of actually reading and understanding. You've got to do the latter before you can realistically do the former.

sydthebeat wrote: »

you talk about form and building for the scottish game but in the same breathe say that whats the use of blooding new players against italy .... which is it?

Again, missing the point. I was trying to point out an obvious hole in the logic some are using that somehow starting vs Italy is both not a risk because they are so poor as well as a valuable learning experience despite them being so poor. I dont think Italy are quite as bad as some make out (yes they are bad) and there is value in guys getting minutes against them, but there is clearly a double standard at work with some that say on the one hand it's like playing a P14 game and then on the other that it's like playing a Test game. It can't be both (and IMO it's between the two rather than one or the other)

sydthebeat wrote: »

we're not winning this competition. We cant. Right now i wouldn't be confident of beating scotland with murray and sexton starting either.

We stand a far better chance of it if we have some momentum behind us.

sydthebeat wrote: »

posters talking about the €500k difference between 3rd and 4th.... but they should think longer term. Would we be in a better position to win the competition next year or the year after by testing out our pretenders at this level this year? 'Bird in the hand' here is so conservative, especially when its obvious that we are just kicking the can down the road. i always though fortune favoured the brave.

The problem with this argument is that it is either or. It doesn't have to be. We should be trying to find a balance between success now and into the future, even if that "success" is coming 3rd instead of 5th (theres STG1.5m in the difference there, which is going to be hugely important to the IRFU in a pandemic). Fortune generally favours the pragmatic. Thats why England won the 6Ns last year. They certainly didn't play the "bravest" rugby. South Africa didnt play the "bravest" rugby in the RWC and they won the thing. Plenty of teams are brave and unfortunate.

sydthebeat wrote: »

as said already gatland had no problem at all blooding new players again italy in the six nations.... even in a year they won a grand slam. there only so many times people can argue against irish rugby being ultra conservative before the train hits them in the face.

We've blooded 11 new players in 12 months. We blooded 10s at 21 and 22 when they were deemed ready. This stuff has been pointed out again and again and again here. The conservatism you are railing against simply doesn't exist to the level that you think it does.

Former Former Former

OldRio wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more.

Well, Joe never rotated, Kidney never rotated, and in the first two rounds of this tournament, both England and France have gone full strength against Italy.

Now, whether we should rotate against Italy is a different question, but I don't think it's a particular indictment of this coaching ticket when they're doing what everyone else does?

And let's be honest - Burns in particular has failed to make a case that he should be starting on merit. Ross Byrne likewise. JGP maybe has a stronger case that he's closer to Murray.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

I mean what has Earls done so far to be ahead of COnway still? Why isn't Aki getting any gametime? Farrell, McCloskey destined to be bit part players. Dillane as well. Is VDF really able to hold his hand up to be an automatic starter?

Conway has been out for personal reasons; it's not necessarily down to selection.

Aki, Farrell and McCloskey haven't been getting gametime as Henshaw has been in brilliant form and Ringrose is a superior option.

Dllane hasn't been getting gametime as Beirne has been in brilliant form and Ryan and Henderson are superior options.

I don't necessarily think VdF is an automatic starter. He lost his place to Connors last year.

I can definitely see the arguments for changing 9 and 10, and Earls too, but I think you're off the mark with the rest above. It's not helpful to have change for changes sake either. We can't say "let's reward form" and then not reward form.

Niallof9

molloyjh wrote: »

I never said they were. I'm sorry syd, but I'm getting really pissed off with people making no attempt to read what's written. Read my post again and see what I mean by foundations, because you've completely missed the point. Too many people here are too eager to disagree and argue instead of actually reading and understanding. You've got to do the latter before you can realistically do the former.



Again, missing the point. I was trying to point out an obvious hole in the logic some are using that somehow starting vs Italy is both not a risk because they are so poor as well as a valuable learning experience despite them being so poor. I dont think Italy are quite as bad as some make out (yes they are bad) and there is value in guys getting minutes against them, but there is clearly a double standard at work with some that say on the one hand it's like playing a P14 game and then on the other that it's like playing a Test game. It can't be both (and IMO it's between the two rather than one or the other)



We stand a far better chance of it if we have some momentum behind us.



The problem with this argument is that it is either or. It doesn't have to be. We should be trying to find a balance between success now and into the future, even if that "success" is coming 3rd instead of 5th (theres STG1.5m in the difference there, which is going to be hugely important to the IRFU in a pandemic). Fortune generally favours the pragmatic. Thats why England won the 6Ns last year. They certainly didn't play the "bravest" rugby. South Africa didnt play the "bravest" rugby in the RWC and they won the thing. Plenty of teams are brave and unfortunate.



We've blooded 11 new players in 12 months. We blooded 10s at 21 and 22 when they were deemed ready. This stuff has been pointed out again and again and again here. The conservatism you are railing against simply doesn't exist to the level that you think it does.

It does and you've been proven incorrect time and time again. How you can look at it all and say conservatism doesn't play a part is mind boggling.

In the darkest days of rugby there's an argument we were less conservative. Ireland needs a Scotland 2000 moment. In one way i kind of think a defeat to Scotland is the best thing that could happen to Irish rugby at this stage.

thomond2006

Ireland Squad – Two Day Camp February 17/18

Keith Earls (Munster/Young Munster) 90 caps
Hugo Keenan (Leinster/UCD) 8 caps
Jordan Larmour (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 26 caps
James Lowe (Leinster) 4 caps

Robbie Henshaw (Leinster/Buccaneers) 49 caps
Garry Ringrose (Leinster/UCD) 32 caps

Billy Burns (Ulster) 5 caps
Jonathan Sexton (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 96 caps

Conor Murray (Munster/Garryowen) 88 caps
Jamison Gibson Park (Leinster) 7 caps

Rob Herring (Ulster/Ballynahinch) 18 caps
Ronan Kelleher (Leinster/Lansdowne) 8 caps

Ed Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 4 caps
Cian Healy (Leinster/Clontarf) 106 caps
Dave Kilcoyne (Munster/UL Bohemians) 40 caps

Tadhg Furlong (Leinster/Clontarf) 46 caps
Andrew Porter (Leinster/UCD) 34 caps

Tadhg Beirne (Munster/Lansdowne) 19 caps
Iain Henderson (Ulster/Academy) 60 caps
James Ryan (Leinster/UCD) 33 caps

Will Connors (Leinster/UCD) 7 caps
Rhys Ruddock (Leinster/St Mary’s College) 27 caps
CJ Stander (Munster/Shannon) 48 caps
Josh van der Flier (Leinster/UCD) 30 caps

Returning to Provinces

Bundee Aki (Connacht/Galwegians) 30 caps
Ryan Baird (Leinster/Dublin University) uncapped
Ross Byrne (Leinster/UCD) 12 caps
Craig Casey (Munster/Shannon) uncapped
Andrew Conway (Munster/Garryowen) 24 caps
Jack Conan (Leinster/Old Belvedere) 17 caps
Shane Daly (Munster/Cork Con) 1 cap
Ultan Dillane (Connacht/Corinthians) 18 caps
Chris Farrell (Munster/Young Munster) 14 caps
Dave Heffernan (Connacht/Buccaneers) 5 caps
Stuart McCloskey (Ulster/Bangor) 4 caps
Tom O’Toole (Ulster/Ballynahinch) uncapped

thomond2006

24 players retained by Ireland and they have two days training while the released players are away.
It's reasonable to suggest that none of the released players are likely to be considered for the Italy game.

An opportunity missed to look at 4-5 players in amongst an otherwise first choice 23.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

Conway has been out for personal reasons; it's not necessarily down to selection.

Aki, Farrell and McCloskey haven't been getting gametime as Henshaw has been in brilliant form and Ringrose is a superior option.

Dllane hasn't been getting gametime as Beirne has been in brilliant form and Ryan and Henderson are superior options.

I don't necessarily think VdF is an automatic starter. He lost his place to Connors last year.

I can definitely see the arguments for changing 9 and 10, and Earls too, but I think you're off the mark with the rest above. It's not helpful to have change for changes sake either. We can't say "let's reward form" and then not reward form.

Yeah i agree to some extent. But theres an argument that its still about squad depth. We can't not play these lads for two years and then head into another WC. Players are in form to some extent, but there is still a clear pecking order. its mostly correct i agree.

Its not a big argument i'm making. Just more a reflection seeing the list. i mean Aki has completely dropped off. Dillane i think has been screwed about, like Cooney and MCCloskey.

I just have a very bad feeling about it all. I think long term i'll be proven correct.

irishbucsfan

If it’s not Sexton and Murray it’ll be JGP and Burns again surely?!

Does anyone think either of these guys are going to be discarded? They both played decently as well, they’ll be obviously be the ones given the jersey if it’s not the old lads

irishbucsfan

thomond2006 wrote: »

24 players retained by Ireland and they have two days training while the released players are away.
It's reasonable to suggest that none of the released players are likely to be considered for the Italy game.

An opportunity missed to look at 4-5 players in amongst an otherwise first choice 23.

Ah no I wouldn’t say so, those guys could come back into contention

Richie_Rich89

I think I would go for Sexton starting with Harry Byrne on the bench. Then when Sexton gets injured, which shouldn't take very long, they can bring Byrne on, put him at fullback to keep him out of the heavy traffic on his step up to international level, and have Keenan at flyhalf.

hahashake

Henshaw and Ringrose are the right combination but I wonder if Aki's penetration is being missed in attack.

thomond2006

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah no I wouldn’t say so, those guys could come back into contention

I don't think so IBF. They'll be behind in terms of preparation.

Niallof9

Yeah imo JGP has to be backed. We need to see him get a run of games. For whatever reason Marmion and Cooney were discarded (disgracefully i must add) so give him his dues. We know what Conor can do. And he hasn't been anywhere near his peak. Why should he be allowed keep getting the chance to chase that peak?

bilston

CMcsporty wrote: »

When he comes back (fingers crossed) Nucifora/Farrell/Munster are going to have a big boys debate.

Carbery (25) is the best 10 option. But there are 2 important factors to consider.

His injury profile really begs the question if he should be moved to 15
Munster have 3 young 10 options who all need game time.
Healy (21/22), Crowley (21) and Flannery (21/22)

Joey should have gone to Ulster!

Ulster are in a different place to where they were back in 2018, maybe he'd make a different choice now if he had to decide now. But back in 2018 it was an understandable decision. Although in saying that I always thought Ulster's style of play was more suited to Carbery.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the future...

When you think of it there is probably more depth at 10 in Ireland than we realise. Or at least there soon will be.

Leinster
Sexton
R.Byrne
H.Byrne
Frawley
Can Hawkshaw play 10?

Munster
Carbery
Hanrahan
Healy
Crowley
Flannery

Ulster
Burns
Madigan
Johnston
Lowry

Connacht
Carty
Fitzgerald

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

I never said they were. I'm sorry syd, but I'm getting really pissed off with people making no attempt to read what's written. Read my post again and see what I mean by foundations, because you've completely missed the point. Too many people here are too eager to disagree and argue instead of actually reading and understanding. You've got to do the latter before you can realistically do the former.
.

the argument is about starting a new half back pairing, or at least one of them.

if you are arguing something different then do not quote me, and thats what i am arguing.

you are saying that we need to get out foundations right and that starting a new half back pair is starting "on sand". i respectively disagree and i would argue that continuing with Murray and Sexton is putting our future "solid footing" at risk.

molloyjh wrote: »

Again, missing the point. I was trying to point out an obvious hole in the logic some are using that somehow starting vs Italy is both not a risk because they are so poor as well as a valuable learning experience despite them being so poor. I dont think Italy are quite as bad as some make out (yes they are bad) and there is value in guys getting minutes against them, but there is clearly a double standard at work with some that say on the one hand it's like playing a P14 game and then on the other that it's like playing a Test game. It can't be both (and IMO it's between the two rather than one or the other)
.

the only one equating italy to a Pro14 team is you, twice now. Again, you quoted me, but i did not say that.
do i think ireland can beat italy with CC and HB starting tomorrow, yes i do.
Both of those together actually have more experience of playing together than Varney and Garbisi.

is this game more valuable to allow murray and sexton get up to speed to play scotland so that we can finish 4th rather than 5th?? in comparison to giving the two i mentioned game time to test them (with CM and JS on the bench).
you are saying the former is more valuable, I would argue the latter is evidently much more valuable in the longer term. It could cement HB his place on the bench for the rest of the competition, and be invaluable going forward.

molloyjh wrote: »

I

We stand a far better chance of it if we have some momentum behind us.

.

you honestly think we have any chance of winning the competition?
do you realis the series of results that have to go our way to do that, and how we'd have to score 12 tries in 3 games where we've already struggled to score 2 in 2?? itlay have scored more than us... let that sink in.

molloyjh wrote: »

The problem with this argument is that it is either or. It doesn't have to be. We should be trying to find a balance between success now and into the future, even if that "success" is coming 3rd instead of 5th (theres STG1.5m in the difference there, which is going to be hugely important to the IRFU in a pandemic). Fortune generally favours the pragmatic. Thats why England won the 6Ns last year. They certainly didn't play the "bravest" rugby. South Africa didnt play the "bravest" rugby in the RWC and they won the thing. Plenty of teams are brave and unfortunate.

We've blooded 11 new players in 12 months. We blooded 10s at 21 and 22 when they were deemed ready. This stuff has been pointed out again and again and again here. The conservatism you are railing against simply doesn't exist to the level that you think it does.

and ive argued those very points right up until 5pm last Sunday.
however theres a huge difference now. We are not winning this competition, we're not coming 3rd... ill happily take a bet with you now on that.

so realistically we are looking down the barrel of a 4th or 5th finish, depending how we get on against scotland. England will suffocate us as they have done the last 2 times we played because we are easy to defend against. Pick tackling machines and we are beaten.

it was so disheartening last Sunday to watch Ross Byrne take the ball standing still 10 meters behind the ruck and immediately shovelling it on, while we were 2 points down clock going red..... Ross is great with the platform given to him by the leinster forwards but his ceiling isnt high enough for the business end of test rugby. i dont believe its Mike Catt telling him to stand off so deep.

LuckyLloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

For all peoples fixation on "the future", I think there's a lot of ignoring what is right in front of our faces. Scotland is a must win game. We have no momentum and no cohesion right now. The Italy game is our only opportunity to gain either of those things ahead of the trip to Scotland. Its all well and good for people on here to make grand claims about what is important and what isn't when they have nothing on the line. But most of those same people would be on here outraged if we lose to Scotland and end up 5th in the table.

Farrell does have to plan for "the future". But he also has to manage the here and now too. His job depends on the latter as much, if not more, than the former. We need some momentum, some confidence and some cohesion. Guys like Ryan, Murray and Sexton will need to play if fit. Otherwise we go to Scotland with them on little game time and having once again swapped and changed the team, robbing it of any form of cohesion.

On that basis, the team I can see getting selected for Italy (fitness permitting) is something like:

Healy Kelleher Furlong
Henderson Ryan
Stander Conan VDF

Murray Sexton
Henshaw Ringrose
Lowe Keenan Larmour

Heffernan, Kilcoyne, O'Toole, Beirne, Coombes, Casey, HByrne, Conway

There is scope to bring in the lads at 9 and 10 once the game has been put to bed. And there's scope to look at someone like Coombes too. But this game is primarily going to be about getting our proverbial s**t together ahead of a must-win in Murrayfield. Its far from ideal, as this is essentially where we were at the end of the Autumn Nations Cup. But had we won against Wales then maybe things would have been different. That red card and the subsequent absences have essentially prevented us from moving forward to any great degree really.

Our next must win game is against Scotland alright, but it will be in September 2023.

molloyjh wrote: »

If X happens people will Y. Because its all about what people think. It couldn't possibly about the team, the coaches, the finances of the IRFU, the evolution of the way we want to play or anything else centered in or around, you know, rugby. Nope, it's all about what people think. That's what's important here. Just like playing guys in Test matches so that punters can see what they are capable is what Test matches are for. To hell with training, where coaches get a good look at them. The people need to know. That's what's important. Oh and "facts". Let's not forget about "facts".

Some people really do have a very inflated sense of what they are worth or where their position is in the grand scheme of things. But the reality is that the likes of Sexton, Farrell and the IRFU aren't really that fussed what people like me think. Nor should they be. They'll measure their success and have their success measured by a much smaller collection of relevant individuals based on factors that we consider as well as factors we dont. None of us here are so special as to have definitive knowledge about any of these things, no matter how much we try to frame it differently.

Well except for Buernard obviously.....

For sure, a coach will prioritise keeping his job rather than developing for the future and a player just wants to play and keep playing until he can't anymore.

People are fully entitled to look at the bigger picture and ask the tough questions. Where are we going? Who do we want to be? The desires of Andy Farrell and Sexton (fiery God that he is) don't align with our long term objectives right now.

I mean, I certainly don't see how we can achieve "evolution of the way we play" rolling out Murray / Sexton anymore. Those guys aren't changing, and when we need to be the other side of this evolution they are highly unlikely to be still playing.

I guess we'll know more at the end of next week...

Burkie1203

bilston wrote: »

. Its understandable that Farrell was reluctant to throw him on on Sunday given the circumstances of the match in the last 10-15 minutes.

So Casey was only getting a run if we were 15+ points ahead with 65 minutes on the clock.

So why select him at all?

typhoony

so the last 2 games the half-back pairings has been broadly similar, they need to switch it up and try something different, I'd have the Carty/Marmion pairing and give them their shot from the start. Even Luke Mcgrath with Carty would bring a different dynamic to what we have been used to.

bilston

Burkie1203 wrote: »

So Casey was only getting a run if we were 15+ points ahead with 65 minutes on the clock.

So why select him at all?

Or 15 points behind...

I suppose Farrell felt the best way to win the match was with JGP. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

typhoony

I do think Casey might be another Hanrahan, hyped up before he's accomplished anything, having huge potential is one thing but delivering for at least 2 years t their province should be a minimum, exceptional talent is different but we've had precious few of those over the years that can go in to international team straight from 20's rugby

almostover

My selection for Italy, not that it makes a blind bit of difference:

15 - Keenan,
14 - Larmour,
13- Ringrose,
12 - Henshaw,
11 - Lowe,
10- Carty,
9 - JGP (bordering on last chance saloon in my eyes)
8 - Coombes (this guy is a no. 8, and has a high potential, we don't make too many athletic 6'6" back rowers).
7 - Connors (has moved ahead of VdF in my eyes)
6 - Stander, (50 mins max)
5 - Ryan,
4 - Henderson,
3 - Furlong (Needs game time)
2 - Kelleher (I'm not a fan of Herring)
1- Healy (1st half only - injuries costing us options here)

16 - Herring (depth at 2 is a worry)
17 - Kilcoyne (if fit)
18 - Porter
19 - Beirne
20 - Baird
21 - Casey (20 mins at least)
22 - R Byrne
23 - Shane Daly (Versatile back 3 player who deserves a shot)

POMs suspension is a blessing in disguise, gives us a chance to try Coombes and Baird. Ruddock is a great pro, abrasive and tough. But those 2 guys could have what it takes to be special. Ruddock is very similar to Stander in his style and Stander is marginally better at being the workhorse.

Time to back Larmour too ahead of Earls. If Jordan can get his kick receipts correct he is a shoe in for the 14 Jersey going forward.

Downlinz

hahashake wrote: »

Henshaw and Ringrose are the right combination but I wonder if Aki's penetration is being missed in attack.

Henshaw was great against Wales but doesn't have the bulk for the bigger defences like England and France, those are definitely opponents we should be using Bundee against.

Must love hardship

Niallof9 wrote: »

Yeah imo JGP has to be backed. We need to see him get a run of games. For whatever reason Marmion and Cooney were discarded (disgracefully i must add) so give him his dues. We know what Conor can do. And he hasn't been anywhere near his peak. Why should he be allowed keep getting the chance to chase that peak?

I dont think JGP is of the required standard. He has never been a starter in his career. He is a solid option off the bench when things are going well.
Why should our International team be the first team he has played for to appoint him as a starter???

His passing left to right is sporadic.. often it is thrown too high or behind the target. He might be quick but he's not accurate and doesn't control play. He missed a number of important tackles at the weekend also.

Mcgrath has always been a starter ahead of him at Leinster and is a superior player.

At the hurricanes it's said he won a super rugby title. He was behind TJ Perenera throughout that season. A player of the same age as him and much higher ceiling.

In the final when the hurricanes won easily by 3 scores he got 4 minutes from the bench.

I really don't see what is is doing in the squad.