Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Niallof9

what you mean Cooney the form 9 for maybe 2 seasons, in Europe, who has been treated awfully? the one apparently leaving for France?

Carty was disgracefully scapegoated for Japan. And hasn't recovered. its ****ing laughable really.

Lads living off 2018 getting passes while others are judged on small details. Infuriating really.

ionadnapokot

Call it whatever you want
I call it an opinion

ClanofLams

aloooof wrote: »

Is it not possible to think that Carty should be in the squad, while also thinking it's not some massive injustice that he isn't?

The reality is we have Carty, Burns and Ross Byrne who are currently all behind Sexton in the coaches mind. There's only so many places and gametime to go around.

I wouldn’t call it a massive injustice and if Sexton was 28 and rarely getting injured it wouldn’t be such an issue.

It’s just bad management, O’Driscoll more or less said (paraphrasing) on Off the Ball that it seems Carty has shouldered much of the blame for World Cup and has been jettisoned.

With Sexton not far from being 50/50 on availability you need Carty’s skill set in the squad. He has had his bad moments in Irish colours for sure (in a team that was having them no matter who started at ten though) but he has also displayed creativity and a threat that neither Burns/Byrne possesses. With Sextons issues it seem a mistake not to have that skill set in the squad.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

Grand.

As I said a while back, Carty is the new Cooney. The cause celebre for people to bitch and moan; it's irrelevant that the guy isn't the first cousin of a test-level out-half. Cos guess what? If he was, he'd be in the squad. Ross Byrne should not be an insurmountable obstacle for anyone with genuine international aspirations.

And you are still on here maintaining that the coaches are damn near faultless when Ireland haven’t played to their potential in over two years.

Schmidt and Farrell are right, regardless of results.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

Grand.

As I said a while back, Carty is the new Cooney. The cause celebre for people to bitch and moan; it's irrelevant that the guy isn't the first cousin of a test-level out-half. Cos guess what? If he was, he'd be in the squad. Ross Byrne should not be an insurmountable obstacle for anyone with genuine international aspirations.

This is not a valid point Former Former Former and I think you know it. The implication you are making is that the Ireland coaching setup is infallible.

It's confirmation bias. "Carty hasn't played, therefore this proves Carty is not good enough". Maybe Carty is good enough, maybe he isn't, his lack of selection proves nothing.

The comparisons with Cooney are wide of the mark. Joe Schmidt absolutely made a total balls of the outhalf situation in 2019. It was a disaster, start to finish.

aloooof

ClanofLams wrote: »

I wouldn’t call it a massive injustice and if Sexton was 28 and rarely getting injured it wouldn’t be such an issue.

It’s just bad management, O’Driscoll more or less said (paraphrasing) on Off the Ball that it seems Carty has shouldered much of the blame for World Cup and has been jettisoned.

With Sexton not far from being 50/50 on availability you need Carty’s skill set in the squad. He has had his bad moments in Irish colours for sure (in a team that was having them no matter who started at ten though) but he has also displayed creativity and a threat that neither Burns/Byrne possesses. With Sextons issues it seem a mistake not to have that skill set in the squad.

Ya, I think that's all pretty reasonable tbh.

Is it possible it's % goal kicking that's keeping him out of favour? My impression is that he doesn't have as high a % than the alternatives. But then Billy Burns doesn't kick sticks for Ulster so possibly not.

ClanofLams

aloooof wrote: »

Ya, I think that's all pretty reasonable tbh.

Is it possible it's % goal kicking that's keeping him out of favour? My impression is that he doesn't have as high a % than the alternatives. But then Billy Burns doesn't kick sticks for Ulster so possibly not.

I’m not sure about this season to be honest ( he has definitely had one or two bad misses but he has had some flawless nights too including a couple of touchline conversions at the RDS) but I think last season his % was higher than Ross Byrne which is no mean feat given the conditions he usually plays in at the Sportsground.

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

This is not a valid point Former Former Former and I think you know it. The implication you are making is that the Ireland coaching setup is infallible.

It's confirmation bias. "Carty hasn't played, therefore this proves Carty is not good enough". Maybe Carty is good enough, maybe he isn't, his lack of selection proves nothing.

The comparisons with Cooney are wide of the mark. Joe Schmidt absolutely made a total balls of the outhalf situation in 2019. It was a disaster, start to finish.

No, I am absolutely not saying the coaches are infallible, and I think you know it.

However, there is a persistent theme around sub-standard players being built up into these tragic heroes who would be world-class if only they could get a fair shake. It's nonsense IMO.

Whatever else you want to say about Carty, he's had plenty of chances to impress. What he did wrong to fall out of favour, I have no idea, but there it is. As I said, Ross Byrne should not be an obstacle to anyone who is genuinely test level, but Carty simply is not that.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, I am absolutely not saying the coaches are infallible, and I think you know it.

However, there is a persistent theme around sub-standard players being built up into these tragic heroes who would be world-class if only they could get a fair shake. It's nonsense IMO.

Whatever else you want to say about Carty, he's had plenty of chances to impress. What he did wrong to fall out of favour, I have no idea, but there it is. As I said, Ross Byrne should not be an obstacle to anyone who is genuinely test level, but Carty simply is not that.

I have no strong feelings either way on Carty, but when you compare his situation to Cooney is where I believe you're going off the rails.

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

And you are still on here maintaining that the coaches are damn near faultless when Ireland haven’t played to their potential in over two years.

Schmidt and Farrell are right, regardless of results.

No, I didn't say that at all and I certainly don't think it either.

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

I have no strong feelings either way on Carty, but when you compare his situation to Cooney is where I believe you're going off the rails.

Mediocre player becomes media darling and source of infinite rage for internetters, despite not actually becoming any better at rugby.

That's the comparison

CowboyTed

Niallof9 wrote: »

Then why was Craig Casey on the bench? Why are other sides playing 19-21 years olds? what is so unique about the Irish set up.

This is the same tired excuse time after time

Other sides would have Casey starting and playing a full season of European Rugby at this stage...

Example Beaudan Barratt:

Barrett came to the attention of national selectors at the age of 19, after he was selected in the New Zealand Sevens team for the final two legs of the 2010 IRB Sevens World Series in England and Scotland and debuted for Taranaki in the ITM Cup against Northland.

Barrett made his debut for Taranaki in the 2010 ITM Cup competition, coming on as a replacement against Northland.

With his season over with Taranaki, it left Barrett with tough decisions to make on his Super Rugby future (Wider Squad). He was called up by the Hurricanes before the side's 2011 tour to South Africa where he saw time off the bench...

In his second season with the Taranaki squad for the 2011 ITM Cup...

In 2012, Barrett began with his first Super Rugby match-day start with the Hurricanes against the Stormers. (27/2/12) He became first choice I believe from here. That is 5 months as first choice

In June 2012, Barrett was named in the All Blacks squad for the Irish tour of New Zealand.[15]
He started the last game in the Tour. This wasn't a vital game. NZ had overpowered Ireland at this stage


Barrett's Test debut was a memorable one; the first five-eighth coming off the bench after 24 minutes and helping the All Blacks contribute 9 points to a record 60–0 win over the Irish. He went on to play five Tests in 2012.


So Barrett had a months of first choice rugby before his international pick. His first start was a 60-0 win.
This is a far cry than Harry Byrne starting for Ireland...

siltirocker

Former Former Former wrote: »

Whatever else you want to say about Carty, he's had plenty of chances to impress.

I hate this narrative. It's fiction. He has been given only two starts.

MOTM in one.

And while the second one was the Japan game, he was on the pitch for 60 minutes and for the first 40 was arguably the best Irish player on it, setting up both our tries with individual moments.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, I am absolutely not saying the coaches are infallible, and I think you know it.

However, there is a persistent theme around sub-standard players being built up into these tragic heroes who would be world-class if only they could get a fair shake. It's nonsense IMO.

Whatever else you want to say about Carty, he's had plenty of chances to impress. What he did wrong to fall out of favour, I have no idea, but there it is. As I said, Ross Byrne should not be an obstacle to anyone who is genuinely test level, but Carty simply is not that.

Nobody is seriously claiming Carty to be world class, get a grip. They are saying him taking the blame for a team that massively underperformed for twelve months culminating at a World Cup when he had a couple of starts during that period is nonsense and he is worthy of a squad position given the first choice ten is extremely injury prone and the other two selected haven’t shown the abilities that Carty has and displayed in Irish colours already.


I’m fairly sure I recall you making similar comments about Tadgh beirne not being up to it who was probably the best player in green in Cardiff ten days ago.

Plenty of chances to impress is more than a stretch too, what was it he got in Cardiff in 2019 when a Ireland we’re getting dismantled and being held pointless? 8 minutes or something ridiculous during which he created Ireland’s only score.

CMcsporty

ionadnapokot wrote: »

But he ticked all 3 points for the RWC.
So no i dont see It as as you call it.
Farrells decision isnt infallible.
It's proven to be far from it.
i'll stick to my opinion.
RByrne is inferior
Burns is inferior

Couldn’t agree more. I would venture Ireland would have beaten Wales with Carty and Marmion and 14men.

But 45 year old Andy Farrell who is not even two years into his first ever head coach job didn’t pick them so we shouldn’t discus.

Especially on a rugby discussion forum

molloyjh

While FFF is probably overstating some of his points, the general jist is fair enough. If Carty can't prove to the coaches that he is better than Ross Byrne then he shouldn't be getting selected. His minutes in games is only partially relevant and too many people are only too happy to ignore that he has had time in camp too, which counts for a lot.

Carty vs Japan comes up a fair bit. And when we played well so did he. When things started going awry he wasn't able to take control of things to turn them around. To me that leaves him in almost the exact same place as Burns and Byrne. I just don't see much between them at all. So I really don't understand why anyone would get too bothered about which one of the not quite good enough guys are getting selected while we wait for Joey to return and/or some of the young lads to come through. I dont see any major upside to selecting Carty in that way. And then throw in some of the errors in big games like Munster for example, errors which the others weren't making, and I'm less convinced there's an issue here at all.

Tim Robbins

French member tested positive for Covid, but thankfully everyone else negative.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/0216/1197399-french-squad-in-isolation-after-positive-covid-test/

It anything this shows a great job following the protocols and ensuring everything is done to limit the spread.

Former Former Former

siltirocker wrote: »

I hate this narrative. It's fiction. He has been given only two starts.

MOTM in one.

And while the second one was the Japan game, he was on the pitch for 60 minutes and for the first 40 was arguably the best Irish player on it, setting up both our tries with individual moments.

"Chances to impress" are not limited to tests in the starting jersey. Appearances off the bench and how he goes in training matter as well - and he's had plenty of both.

Whatever else you want to say about Carty in the Ireland squad, he's had his chances to force his way in. Giving him more and more deprives another player of those chances, that's the nature of the game.

Again, I don't think there's much at all between Burns, Byrne and Carty and I absolutely don't believe that the coaches are infallible, but the idea that anyone has been treated badly is nonsense.

LuckyLloyd

The right question is ‘which of Carty / Burns / Byrne would we most like to succeed on the basis of their skill set and upside?’

I think the answer there is Carty and it isn’t terribly close.

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

While FFF is probably overstating some of his points, the general jist is fair enough. If Carty can't prove to the coaches that he is better than Ross Byrne then he shouldn't be getting selected. His minutes in games is only partially relevant and too many people are only too happy to ignore that he has had time in camp too, which counts for a lot.

Carty vs Japan comes up a fair bit. And when we played well so did he. When things started going awry he wasn't able to take control of things to turn them around. To me that leaves him in almost the exact same place as Burns and Byrne. I just don't see much between them at all. So I really don't understand why anyone would get too bothered about which one of the not quite good enough guys are getting selected while we wait for Joey to return and/or some of the young lads to come through. I dont see any major upside to selecting Carty in that way. And then throw in some of the errors in big games like Munster for example, errors which the others weren't making, and I'm less convinced there's an issue here at all.

I don't recall Sexton taking control of too many games in 2019 behind that pack and Murray well below his best.....


Anyway as long as Ireland continue with the limited game plan they have had that hasn't worked worked in two and a half years, the selection at ten won't be the biggest issue they have.

This is obviously what Burns has been instructed to do, Gibson Park did it plenty too.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1361068225228857344

Niallof9

will people stop with the need to prove to coaches bit. Theres clear confirmation bias in one coaches preference over another and their continued selection and then the golden contract etc.

Carty decision has nothing to do with proving anything to any coaches. He was scapegoated and now he's labeled as finished because he is 28. Despite all signs pointing to us taking a 37 year old outhalf to the WC.

In the past there was certain players who face didn't fit and didn't get on with coaches. Zebo and Cronin being known examples. People say Cooney has something similar with AF.

Sometimes faces don't fit for whatever reason. Can we stop demanding players prove themselves when this is only one part of it. If it was all about proof and performance and demanding starts half the team would be out on their ear. Look at somebody like Shane Jennings. His face never fit with Eddie. There's tonnes of examples and the constant setting apart of talent in Ireland is meaning lads getting pegged for the dirt tracker team despite outperforming incumbents over long periods. Its a never ending story. The fact that it was Ruddocks first start is all you need to know in this regard.

siltirocker

molloyjh wrote: »

And then throw in some of the errors in big games like Munster for example, errors which the others weren't making, and I'm less convinced there's an issue here at all.

This, also, has been debunked. Both Friend and Dillane have explained this. Boyle wasn't meant to pop right. Then after, Marmion instructed the pod right, but they set left. Instead of a burly forward the pass went to Carty.

I don't see how a young forward's misunderstanding of a scrum half's call is Jack Carty's fault. But hey., I suppose it makes as much sense as him costing us the game against Japan.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

Mediocre player becomes media darling and source of infinite rage for internetters, despite not actually becoming any better at rugby.

That's the comparison

Yea, as I said you've gone off the rails.

I dread to think what adjective you'd use to describe 2019's Conor Murray if John Cooney was "mediocre".

ionadnapokot

siltirocker wrote: »

I hate this narrative. It's fiction. He has been given only two starts.

MOTM in one.

And while the second one was the Japan game, he was on the pitch for 60 minutes and for the first 40 was arguably the best Irish player on it, setting up both our tries with individual moments.

I wouldnt say hate!!
But to close down a discussion and deride opinion on this basis that he's not getting picked is a constant tool here.

I do feel there is serious question marks over allot of Farrell's selections and his attack and defense tactics.

I would think the Scotland game will be the most important games in his whole tenure.
Loose and I think the public and media will all be openly voiceful in their concerns.

Naturally the IRFU will back him.
But i wouldn't be that surprised if Catt and Easterby are offered up as the sacrificial lambs.

Cant afford alternatives all the same

CowboyTed

aloooof wrote: »

Ya, I think that's all pretty reasonable tbh.

Is it possible it's % goal kicking that's keeping him out of favour? My impression is that he doesn't have as high a % than the alternatives. But then Billy Burns doesn't kick sticks for Ulster so possibly not.

Carty is kicking half of kicks in the Sportsground which has to affect the stats. It still doesn't make him a top class kicker and he is down about 10% on the others considering... have to look at Penalties only, Connacht score a lot more in the corner than most...

But pick him with Cooney if it is a major issue... The No. 10 doesn't have to be the kicker.

molloyjh

Also, if people think that Harry Byrne is the future then Ross Byrne being selected by Ireland is surely a good thing as in the short term it frees up games for Harry to play at Leinster. He wouldn't have gotten that amount of time this season if Ross was left with Leinster. :pac;

Former Former Former

awec wrote: »

Yea, as I said you've gone off the rails.

Is that necessary?

awec wrote: »

I dread to think what adjective you'd use to describe 2019's Conor Murray if John Cooney was "mediocre".

He was absolutely rubbish. But that doesn't make Cooney one iota better.

Cooney has never, ever been in competition with Murray. Cooney has been competing with McGrath, Marmion and now JGP and Casey. That he could never get clearly ahead of these pretty average competitors speaks volumes.

Likewise for Carty; Sexton is utterly irrelevant in the Carty conversation, his competition is Burns and Byrne - and he's not winning.

crossman47

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The right question is ‘which of Carty / Burns / Byrne would we most like to succeed on the basis of their skill set and upside?’

I think the answer there is Carty and it isn’t terribly close.

The long term answer may lie in Munster. Whether Healy or Crowley, I don't know but IMO Crowley should be fast tracked by Munster.

awec

Former Former Former wrote: »

Is that necessary?



He was absolutely rubbish. But that doesn't make Cooney one iota better.

Cooney has never, ever been in competition with Murray. Cooney has been competing with McGrath, Marmion and now JGP and Casey. That he could never get clearly ahead of these pretty average competitors speaks volumes.

Likewise for Carty; Sexton is utterly irrelevant in the Carty conversation, his competition is Burns and Byrne - and he's not winning.

Cooney was better than Murray, McGrath, Marmion and JGP in 2019. It wasn't even a close run thing.

Schmidt screwed up. He picked awful players continually and he paid the price for that in the end.

There is no comparison with Carty. Cooney is one of the rare cases where a player was genuinely screwed.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

Is that necessary?



He was absolutely rubbish. But that doesn't make Cooney one iota better.

Cooney has never, ever been in competition with Murray. Cooney has been competing with McGrath, Marmion and now JGP and Casey. That he could never get clearly ahead of these pretty average competitors speaks volumes.

Likewise for Carty; Sexton is utterly irrelevant in the Carty conversation, his competition is Burns and Byrne - and he's not winning.

Not winning per Andy Farrell's judgment. Ireland aren't winning either. And I suspect Farrell's judgment will be relevant for about the next four weeks.