Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

molloyjh

siltirocker wrote: »

This, also, has been debunked. Both Friend and Dillane have explained this. Boyle wasn't meant to pop right. Then after, Marmion instructed the pod right, but they set left. Instead of a burly forward the pass went to Carty.

I don't see how a young forward's misunderstanding of a scrum half's call is Jack Carty's fault. But hey., I suppose it makes as much sense as him costing us the game against Japan.

For starters I never said he cost Ireland that game so you can leave that one to one side.

Secondly, if the half backs failure to communicate happens once it isnt a big deal. If it happens multiple times though, then it is. The decision to go right after Boyle error was horrendous given that the openside had all the numbers and space. So not only did they not communicate effectively, the decision was downright awful. You can forgive a young lad making an error like Boyle did. But your experienced half backs need to be better. They are senior guys and they couldn't manage that situation against 13 men. How is that going to do anything but hurt their chances with Ireland? If that was Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne you can be bloody sure I'd be saying the exact same thing.

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

While FFF is probably overstating some of his points, the general jist is fair enough. If Carty can't prove to the coaches that he is better than Ross Byrne then he shouldn't be getting selected. His minutes in games is only partially relevant and too many people are only too happy to ignore that he has had time in camp too, which counts for a lot.

Carty vs Japan comes up a fair bit. And when we played well so did he. When things started going awry he wasn't able to take control of things to turn them around. To me that leaves him in almost the exact same place as Burns and Byrne. I just don't see much between them at all. So I really don't understand why anyone would get too bothered about which one of the not quite good enough guys are getting selected while we wait for Joey to return and/or some of the young lads to come through. I dont see any major upside to selecting Carty in that way. And then throw in some of the errors in big games like Munster for example, errors which the others weren't making, and I'm less convinced there's an issue here at all.

Maybe we should analyse Johnny Sexton's performances for Ireland since February 2019 and see where we are?

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not winning per Andy Farrell's judgment. Ireland aren't winning either. And I suspect Farrell's judgment will be relevant for about the next four weeks.

Thats just petty and a refusal to actually address the points being made.

OldRio

Unfortunately I'm of a feeling that whoever starts against Italy will not matter a jot. They can have great games or poor games it just doesn't matter. We will revert back to the same old selection v Scotland. Injuries aside of course.

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Also, if people think that Harry Byrne is the future then Ross Byrne being selected by Ireland is surely a good thing as in the short term it frees up games for Harry to play at Leinster. He wouldn't have gotten that amount of time this season if Ross was left with Leinster. :pac;

I see Ross Byrne has beem released back to Leinster this week!

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Maybe we should analyse Johnny Sexton's performances for Ireland since February 2019 and see where we are?

Exactly where we find ourselves. Looking for a replacement. But as much as it may piss people off to hear, Sexton had credit in the bank when his form dipped. Carty didn't. That may seem unfair, but if you've got 2 options who aren't quite cutting it and only 1 has a history of being able to perform at the top level, then thats the guy that's going to get picked.

Sextons performances last season were much better than 2019 so the form issue for him was only really in 2019.

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

I see Ross Byrne has beem released back to Leinster this week!

Ah yeah but that's just to clear the way for Harry's call up to Ireland next week.....obviously.

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

Thats just petty and a refusal to actually address the points being made.

I have addressed the points already. We're being told on here Carty got plenty of chances - as was pointed out by another posters two starts (motm in one) and Japan. 8 minutes bizarrely in Cardiff when Ireland hadn't scored in 72 - he created the only try ireland got in those eight minutes. I said after that game on here it was complete nonsense to leave Sexton on for seventy two minutes (not that it would have affected the result) and it was.

His only performances in green have been with a massively under performing Irish team, he has had some bad moments and a fair few good moments too.

Ireland haven't played to their potential in two and a half years and there is a fair few posters on here who haven't criticised management in that period and react badly to any criticism. Then they respond with "I'm not claiming Schmidt/Farrell got everything right" but they post daily on a rugby forum and have almost never been critical. Bizarre.

Paul Smeenus

bilston wrote: »

I see Ross Byrne has beem released back to Leinster this week!

Yep. I don't think Farrell feels Byrne leapfrogged Burns on Sunday

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

I have addressed the points already. We're being told on here Carty got plenty of chances - as was pointed out by another posters two starts (motm in one) and Japan. 8 minutes bizarrely in Cardiff when Ireland hadn't scored in 72 - he created the only try ireland got in those eight minutes. I said after that game on here it was complete nonsense to leave Sexton on for seventy two minutes (not that it would have affected the result) and it was.

His only performances in green have been with a massively under performing Irish team, he has had some bad moments and a fair few good moments too.

Ireland haven't played to their potential in two and a half years and there is a fair few posters on here who haven't criticised management in that period and react badly to any criticism. Then they respond with "I'm not claiming Schmidt/Farrell got everything right" but they post daily on a rugby forum and have almost never been critical. Bizarre.

As has been repeated ad bloody nauseum at this stage, Test matches aren't the only chances players get. It's beyond a joke that it needs to keep being said at this point.

molloyjh

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yep. I don't think Farrell feels Byrne leapfrogged Burns on Sunday

He most definitely didn't.

Niallof9

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not winning per Andy Farrell's judgment. Ireland aren't winning either. And I suspect Farrell's judgment will be relevant for about the next four weeks.

beautifully put. argument won imo

molloy and former former being consistently proved wrong since this thread was in its infancy.

Paul Smeenus

molloyjh wrote: »

He most definitely didn't.

I'd feel the same, but this place is an asylum at the minute, so i was just being circumspect.

Dual wheels

TRC10 wrote: »

Great observation.

Not an observation it’s a fact

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

As has been repeated ad bloody nauseum at this stage, Test matches aren't the only chances players get. It's beyond a joke that it needs to keep being said at this point.

As has been said by others, coaches aren't infallible. That they are judged to be by some on here is frankly strange.

There's a reasonable discussion to be had on the topic, the outright dismissal of it or complete certainty that a struggling coaching ticket is definitely right would be somewhat understandable if it was November 2018. It's February 2021.

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

Not winning per Andy Farrell's judgment. Ireland aren't winning either. And I suspect Farrell's judgment will be relevant for about the next four weeks.

Yeah, fingers crossed our coach gets sacked so a mid-range provincial player can eke out a few more caps before someone better comes along.

Niallof9

ClanofLams wrote: »

As has been said by others, coaches aren't infallible. That they are judged to be by some on here is frankly strange.

There's a reasonable discussion to be had on the topic, the outright dismissal of it or complete certainty that a struggling coaching ticket is definitely right would be somewhat understandable if it was November 2018. It's February 2021.

this denial and refusal to accept others points and then having the audacity to call others out, has been going on years on this forum. years.

siltirocker

molloyjh wrote: »

As has been repeated ad bloody nauseum at this stage, Test matches aren't the only chances players get. It's beyond a joke that it needs to keep being said at this point.

No but I find when judging players capabilities at test rugby reviewing their opportunities in test rugby is inarguably the best metric to measure it on.

Also no one said otherwise. But when some posters infer that they haven't played well in test matches, or have been given plenty of chances in test matches, quite rightfully people will point out otherwise.

Poster A: He hasn't doesn't much in with all his chances.

Poster B: He hasn't had many chances, and a quick review shows he did pretty alright in the ones he got

Poster C: Performances in matches aren't everything.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, fingers crossed our coach gets sacked so a mid-range provincial player can eke out a few more caps before someone better comes along.

I was more hoping we could move to a game plan that didn't pass its sell by date two and a half years ago but whatever works for you.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1361068225228857344

Zzippy

I'm a Connacht fan and a big Carty fan, but I don't think he's done enough to be second choice 10. IMO he has a much higher ceiling than RB in terms of ability and playmaking, but even the most ardent Connacht fans would admit he's suffered runs of poor form and loss of confidence at crucial times. That's undoubtedly in coaches minds when selecting a squad. After Sexton I think he's the most naturally gifted footballing 10 we have. He offers far more than RB in open play. RB is much more consistent, albeit at a lower level, and kicks his goals better. He doesn't play on the gainline, which cripples our back play, but he kicks his goals. If Carty is in form then RB shouldn't get a look in, but it's not as simple as that.
TBH I haven't watched enough of BB or HB to be able to compare, but from what I have seen both are better playmakers than RB, and take it to the line much more often. With the decline of Sexton, hopefully they get more opportunities than Carty has had.

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

As has been said by others, coaches aren't infallible. That they are judged to be by some on here is frankly strange.

There's a reasonable discussion to be had on the topic, the outright dismissal of it or complete certainty that a struggling coaching ticket is definitely right would be somewhat understandable if it was November 2018. It's February 2021.

The problem here is you want it to be one thing or the other. At no point had anyone said the coaches are infallible. In fact we've all said literally the opposite. But yet here you are saying it anyway.

Read my posts back. The point I made was that I don't see much of a difference between the 3 back ups so don't see what the fuss is about overall. If it was Carty selected over Byrne or Burns then I'd be saying the same thing. It's not about the coaches being right, it's about not really seeing a clear right or wrong to the call.

So can we please move away from the BS strawman stuff now?

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

I was more hoping we could move to a game plan that didn't pass its sell by date two and a half years ago but whatever works for you.

Jesus, how many times are we going to see this one clip?

What works for me is Ireland getting better cos we're not very good.

Where you and I differ is thinking that Jack Carty is part of the solution. He's not. He had his chance, he failed to take it, time for someone else to get a go.

Dual wheels

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm a Connacht fan and a big Carty fan, but I don't think he's done enough to be second choice 10. IMO he has a much higher ceiling than RB in terms of ability and playmaking, but even the most ardent Connacht fans would admit he's suffered runs of poor form and loss of confidence at crucial times. That's undoubtedly in coaches minds when selecting a squad. After Sexton I think he's the most naturally gifted footballing 10 we have. He offers far more than RB in open play. RB is much more consistent, albeit at a lower level, and kicks his goals better. He doesn't play on the gainline, which cripples our back play, but he kicks his goals. If Carty is in form then RB shouldn't get a look in, but it's not as simple as that.
TBH I haven't watched enough of BB or HB to be able to compare, but from what I have seen both are better playmakers than RB, and take it to the line much more often. With the decline of Sexton, hopefully they get more opportunities than Carty has had.

Burns offers very little from play and nothing defensively
Carty hasn’t got a fair crack at the whip

Niallof9

ClanofLams wrote: »

I was more hoping we could move to a game plan that didn't pass its sell by date two and a half years ago but whatever works for you.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1361068225228857344

stop, stop he's already dead

oisinog

All this complaining over the coaches. Andy Farrell took after the world cup.

Moving into his first major matches as head coach covid struck.

He has had less time as with the squad than any coach before him. He is working with reduced training time and training squads and I'm sure he is not getting the financial support other coaches did. Now he has picked up on gaps on the coaching ticket and added POC as a coach and we can see some changes, its still slow bit its moving the right way.

I'm sure they are already looking another coach to help with the backs.

Blooding new players will take time and we have 2 years before the next world cup so the time to panic is not upon us yet.

We need to be realistic here Covid has proably had an impact on AFs plans so we need to wait to see what happens.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

Jesus, how many times are we going to see this one clip?

What works for me is Ireland getting better cos we're not very good.

Where you and I differ is thinking that Jack Carty is part of the solution. He's not. He had his chance, he failed to take it, time for someone else to get a go.

There are plenty more examples. I posted that one twice. I haven't seen it too much otherwise on here. That you don't want to discuss a perfect example of Ireland's current struggles is unsurprising.

Part of the solution long term? Unlikely at best. Worthy of a place in the squad currently is the discussion and the fact that some posters react so badly to any questioning of the coaches is frankly bizarre.

.ak

Two LBP in the bag. We're gonna win this championship, just watch.


:pac:

Niallof9

ClanofLams wrote: »

There are plenty more examples. I posted that one twice. I haven't seen it too much otherwise on here. That you don't want to discuss a perfect example of Ireland's current struggles is unsurprising.

Part of the solution long term? Unlikely at best. Worthy of a place in the squad currently is the discussion and the fact that some posters react so badly to any questioning of the coaches is frankly bizarre.

this

molloyjh

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm a Connacht fan and a big Carty fan, but I don't think he's done enough to be second choice 10. IMO he has a much higher ceiling than RB in terms of ability and playmaking, but even the most ardent Connacht fans would admit he's suffered runs of poor form and loss of confidence at crucial times. That's undoubtedly in coaches minds when selecting a squad. After Sexton I think he's the most naturally gifted footballing 10 we have. He offers far more than RB in open play. RB is much more consistent, albeit at a lower level, and kicks his goals better. He doesn't play on the gainline, which cripples our back play, but he kicks his goals. If Carty is in form then RB shouldn't get a look in, but it's not as simple as that.
TBH I haven't watched enough of BB or HB to be able to compare, but from what I have seen both are better playmakers than RB, and take it to the line much more often. With the decline of Sexton, hopefully they get more opportunities than Carty has had.

I'd fully agree with all of this.

Burns is probably somewhat in between Carty and Byrne. Def brings a lot more in terms of an attacking threat but probably doesn't have some of the spark that Carty can bring. He's probably not quite as consistent as Byrne, but more consistent than Carty. I'd probably add that Byrne is possibly the best defender of the three and his kicking game is pretty good too.

Its very early days for Harry Byrne but he looks like he has a good range of skills. Has a lot of the same strengths as his brother but also brings a lot more in attack. He is well capable of taking the ball to the line, generally plays flatter and bring guys in well, is faster and is developing into a good decision maker too. I know Paul found it funny, but his restarts against Scarlets were incredibly high quality. Got great height and hang time and I think nearly every single one was contestable, meaning we won a few back. It really stood out during the game as a real weapon. We just need to see more of him against quality opposition.

Must love hardship

With people calling for Catts head who would the most likely replacement be, if there was another change with the backs/attack coach?


Felipe contepomi
Stephen Larkham
Jared payne
Nigel Carolan
Girvan Dempsey

What other options may be available?