Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

?
He was excellent against Wales. But thats the problem, he followed it up with a fairly average performance.

He's been in the side more often than not and you could say for some time he hasn't been performing.

Are you seriously using Henshaw as an example of a guy who's not performing....

Henshaw was literally Irelands best player in 2020 and hes hit the ground running in 2021.

Lots of players on central contracts have been dropped.

Jack McGrath
Toner
Henderson
O'Mahony
Murray
Aki
Earls
Kearney

molloyjh

TRC10 wrote: »

There havent been European games for him to play in. He came off the bench v Montpeliier. Then got injured in the warm up before the game he was due to start in. The last 2 group games were cancelled. Why does everyone have this romantic, wishful idea that a player has to play X european games or Y interpro games before they're eligible for selection.

Because that's generally how human beings develop. Step by step. It's how it is for the vast majority of players in any team in the world. The P14 is a step up from A games, the interpros are a step up from standard P14 games, the HEC is a step up etc etc. You get the point.

People tend to learn on a curve. Different guys at different rates. Some are freaks like James Ryan, but most need to build up their experience to be able to handle games moving at a faster and faster pace. It's completely and totally normal for players to develop that way. Owen Farrell for example made his England debut at 21 having debuted for Saracens at 17 and guiding them to a Premiership win at the age of 20, 9 months before his England debut. This is just how this stuff works in the real world.

Niallof9

TRC10 wrote: »

Are you seriously using Henshaw as an example of a guy who's not performing....

Henshaw was literally Irelands best player in 2020 and hes hit the ground running in 2021.

Lots of players on central contracts have been dropped.

Jack McGrath
Toner
Henderson
O'Mahony
Murray
Aki
Earls
Kearney

He's been on an excellent run of form. Without question. Before that it was questionable and he also had injuries.

He is our first choice 12, Ringrose is our first choice 13. Toner was an age thing, Kearney the same, POM was barely dropped, Murray wasn't dropped, Earls wasn't dropped, Henderson is borderline. And yeah Aki seems the first guy to be stalled in full flight. Jack was let run down as he dropped off a cliff.

CowboyTed

molloyjh wrote: »

While FFF is probably overstating some of his points, the general jist is fair enough. If Carty can't prove to the coaches that he is better than Ross Byrne then he shouldn't be getting selected. His minutes in games is only partially relevant and too many people are only too happy to ignore that he has had time in camp too, which counts for a lot.

Carty vs Japan comes up a fair bit. And when we played well so did he. When things started going awry he wasn't able to take control of things to turn them around. To me that leaves him in almost the exact same place as Burns and Byrne. I just don't see much between them at all. So I really don't understand why anyone would get too bothered about which one of the not quite good enough guys are getting selected while we wait for Joey to return and/or some of the young lads to come through. I dont see any major upside to selecting Carty in that way. And then throw in some of the errors in big games like Munster for example, errors which the others weren't making, and I'm less convinced there's an issue here at all.

Beauden Barrett wouldn't get ahead of Ross Byrne on this team at the moment and nobdy is claiming Carty is Beauden Barrett.

Ireland could play in an alternative attacking style with a Marmion/Cooney Scrum Half and Carty Out Half.

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

IYou have repeatedly referenced Carty's time in camp in defence of the decision which means I interpret your comments as the coaches are correct because of that camp time/additional info?

Well then I think we're done. You are now deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your own agenda despite me clarifying my position numerous times for you. You don't actually want to know what anyone else is saying. You want to invent an opposing position that allows you to feel vindicated. You can do that with someone else from here on out so. I've tried discussing in good faith. More the fool me.

TRC10

Niallof9 wrote: »

He's been on an excellent run of form. Without question. Before that it was questionable and he also had injuries.

He is our first choice 12, Ringrose is our first choice 13. Toner was an age thing, Kearney the same, POM was barely dropped, Murray wasn't dropped, Earls wasn't dropped, Henderson is borderline. And yeah Aki seems the first guy to be stalled in full flight. Jack was let run down as he dropped off a cliff.

Omahony was dropped at the start of 2020, then Doris got injured and he played his way back in. Earls was dropped for Conway in 2020. Murray was dropped for JGP v england last year. Jack was clearly dropped.

molloyjh

CowboyTed wrote: »

Beauden Barrett wouldn't get ahead of Ross Byrne on this team at the moment and nobdy is claiming Carty is Beauden Barrett.

Ireland could play in an alternative attacking style with a Marmion/Cooney Scrum Half and Carty Out Half.

I mean, there's stupid BS and then there's this.....

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

He's been on an excellent run of form. Without question. Before that it was questionable and he also had injuries.

He is our first choice 12, Ringrose is our first choice 13.

So he's our first choice 12 and Ringrose our first choice 13 but it's a disgrace that Aki, Farrell and McCloskey haven't gotten opportunities?

That's Aki who started every game of the 2020 6 Nations, and Farrell who started 3 games of the Autumn Nations Cup. No opportunities.

Podge_irl

CowboyTed wrote: »

Beauden Barrett wouldn't get ahead of Ross Byrne on this team at the moment and nobdy is claiming Carty is Beauden Barrett.

Ireland could play in an alternative attacking style with a Marmion/Cooney Scrum Half and Carty Out Half.

Beauden Barrett wouldn't get ahead of Ross Byrne but the similarly initialled Billy Burns manages it just fine?

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

As has been repeated ad bloody nauseum at this stage, Test matches aren't the only chances players get. It's beyond a joke that it needs to keep being said at this point.

molloyjh wrote: »

Well then I think we're done. You are now deliberately misrepresenting what I said to suit your own agenda despite me clarifying my position numerous times for you. You don't actually want to know what anyone else is saying. You want to invent an opposing position that allows you to feel vindicated. You can do that with someone else from here on out so. I've tried discussing in good faith. More the fool me.

I view your first quote there as being Carty has got sufficient opportunity and a trust that coaches have seen something in camp that they don't like ergo their decision is correct. Maybe I misinterpreted it, although not sure how.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

So he's our first choice 12 and Ringrose our first choice 13 but it's a disgrace that Aki, Farrell and McCloskey haven't gotten opportunities?

That's Aki who started every game of the 2020 6 Nations, and Farrell who started 3 games of the Autumn Nations Cup. No opportunities.

i didn't say it was a disgrace. Cooney and Carty's was a disgrace. Ruddock, Dillane. All disgraceful imo. Particularly the latter in what happened.

Its not a huge issue as i outlined in certain positions. lets say though its part of an overall theme. And in the last big showpiece it failed miserably.

If it fails in this championship can we please have some honesty fro mcertain posters?

I don;t rate Aki. I like Farrell.

There is lads in the squad who have been getting away with murder. And there is lads who have been used as scapegoats. can people please accept this? cause you're lying to yourselves if you think otherwise.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

you think McCloskey has gotten a fair crack?

Never said he did. But they can't all get a fair crack. There's only so much game time to go around.

Niallof9 wrote: »

He was excellent against Wales. But thats the problem, he followed it up with a fairly average performance.

He's been in the side more often than not and you could say for some time he hasn't been performing.

I disagree tbh. He may have been average last week, but thnk back to last years 6 Nations against France. He was one of our best players, and scored a brilliant try.

Niallof9 wrote: »

...nobody is really saying Henshaw and Ringrose aren't the preferred partnership. We're arguing people aren't getting fair cracks.

Aki started all the 2020 6 Nations games. Farrell started 3 of the Autumn Nations Cup games. Using them as an example is just not true.

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

I view your first quote there as being Carty has got sufficient opportunity and a trust that coaches have seen something in camp that they don't like ergo their decision is correct. Maybe I misinterpreted it, although not sure how.

I'll give you a clue how. What you think is in that post is not there. It isnt there in that post and is contradicted by about half a dozen other posts on the matter. It seems that no matter how many times I tell you its not there and I don't believe it, you want to keep insisting it is and I do. But that is entirely in your head.

Lost Ormond

TRC10 wrote: »

There havent been European games for him to play in. He came off the bench v Montpeliier. Then got injured in the warm up before the game he was due to start in. The last 2 group games were cancelled. Why does everyone have this romantic, wishful idea that a player has to play X european games or Y interpro games before they're eligible for selection.

I've said this before, Leinster are the best team in Europe and thus have a completely different agenda to Ireland. They have no reason to rush Harry Byrne. They dont have a world cup in 2 years that they desperately need to blood a new 10 for. I've seen every minute of professional rugby Harry Byrne has played and he is clearly good enough to be involved. And he has he highest ceiling of all the 10s on this island. The idea that he has to jump through these hoops even though hes clearly good enough is silly.

If it was that clear he was good enough then he would be playing these bigger games for Leinster already.
It isnt anything romantic/wishful but saying we need to have or he has to be pushed now is ridiculous when he hasnt been expected/picked to play in Europe. Yes he has had injuries and missed some rounds but if you are going to rush a young 10 at least pick one who has played in Europe, performed well in the league like Healy. And i wouldnt be picking him right now either
Im not so sure he does have highest ceiling of all 10s on the island. How many games has he played where he hasnt got it completely his own way due to his pack smashing the opposition?

TRC10

Lost Ormond wrote: »

If it was that clear he was good enough then he would be playing these bigger games for Leinster already.

Because A: he got injured, and B: they were cancelled

He was literally picked to start ahead of Ross in a european game when Leinster were otherwise fielding their strongest team.

The only thing Ross has over Harry is experience, it's been very clear for a while that Harry is a better player.

CowboyTed

Former Former Former wrote: »

Is that necessary?



He was absolutely rubbish. But that doesn't make Cooney one iota better.

Cooney has never, ever been in competition with Murray. Cooney has been competing with McGrath, Marmion and now JGP and Casey. That he could never get clearly ahead of these pretty average competitors speaks volumes.

Likewise for Carty; Sexton is utterly irrelevant in the Carty conversation, his competition is Burns and Byrne - and he's not winning.

I think there is a belief that Murray and Sexton are not only undroppable but the style the team plays is totally suited for them...

The alternative(there is a few alternatives) is that we could play a predominately pod based running possession game with the likes of Marmion/Cooney and Carty... Ryan would move out more in the field and be the pivot man...

This is not tried... Ireland have Plan A with Murray and Sexton and if something goes wrong we have Plan A with JGP and Burns.... How about another Plan with players that are suited towards that...

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

I'll give you a clue how. What you think is in that post is not there. It isnt there in that post and is contradicted by about half a dozen other posts on the matter. It seems that no matter how many times I tell you its not there and I don't believe it, you want to keep insisting it is and I do. But that is entirely in your head.

Whatever we can move on. I'll repeat what I said in an earlier post.

What you took out of my post in quoting me is far more important as I said. Andy Farrell added Mike Catt to the coaching ticket, a decision that was viewed as questionable at the time and looks frankly bad now. It understandably leads to questions about his judgment.

Ireland's attack is very limited, seemingly by design. In truth it has been for years now. The view that Andy Farrell is the best coach to lead Ireland to the World Cup is an increasingly difficult one to support. Barring a major turn around in the next month, he will leave this six nations under severe pressure, at best.

To add to this, you, former former and others have been dismissive of criticism of the coaching ticket for two and a half years years of Ireland not performing.

In former formers case with hyperbolic bs responses "Yeah world class carty will save us".

The results on the pitch speak for themselves. The coaching ticket aren't up it and are persistent with a game plan where attack is discarded. It's not good enough and the amount of time it will be tolerated for is ticking down fast. Good luck.

Podge_irl

ClanofLams wrote: »

What you took out of my post in quoting me is far more important as I said. Andy Farrell added Mike Catt to the coaching ticket, a decision that was viewed as questionable at the time and looks frankly bad now. It understandably leads to questions about his judgment.

To be fair, adding POC was also incredibly questionable but seems to have worked out alright so far.

ionadnapokot

Adding POC made complete sense

Despite the misgivings here

CowboyTed

molloyjh wrote: »

For starters I never said he cost Ireland that game so you can leave that one to one side.

Secondly, if the half backs failure to communicate happens once it isnt a big deal. If it happens multiple times though, then it is. The decision to go right after Boyle error was horrendous given that the openside had all the numbers and space. So not only did they not communicate effectively, the decision was downright awful. You can forgive a young lad making an error like Boyle did. But your experienced half backs need to be better. They are senior guys and they couldn't manage that situation against 13 men. How is that going to do anything but hurt their chances with Ireland? If that was Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne you can be bloody sure I'd be saying the exact same thing.

It was the end of a game which the Connacht pack was generally pummelled for 60+min...
it was amazing how Connacht held on to be in it at the end...

Yes there was a mistake in the end... Boyle who is quite young but has to be a senior player on this team made a mistake.

Luke McGrath and Ross Byrne would have to deal with the shell shock of their pack being totally dominated first... That is not jab on the lads but in Leinster you get a massive stable platform first (Saracens exception)...

NotCarrotRidge

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

As explained, we had 4 eggs in the basket.

And that basket has been fully upset for the guts of two years now. It has been obvious to anyone who's been paying attention (and I have been, as I'm a Munster supporter) that Carbery is, at best, injury prone. This is not news.

Jackson was found not guilty in court but guilty anyway almost three years ago. By that time, the basket was down to one, the aforementioned Joey. Since then, we've done precious little to address the issue on a long term basis.

I'm not necessarily laying the blame for this at Farrell's door; I don't think he's up to the job anyway, but the short term thinking is the IRFU's baby. They've always been like that and it's partially understandable. The 6N butters their bread but the WC does not. It's junket for the blazers every 4 years. They'd like for us to get past the quarters, but they need us competing for the 6N.

Podge_irl

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Adding POC made complete sense

Despite the misgivings here

Adding a proven forwards coach made complete sense.

Adding POC was either a) a complete crapshoot that seems to have paid off or b) astute judgement by Farrell of a completely unproven coach.

CowboyTed

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yep. I don't think Farrell feels Byrne leapfrogged Burns on Sunday

If Byrne had leapfrogged Burns for the bench against England, it would just prove how bad IRish Rugby is...

Ross has started against England twice and in both occasions was terrible... Truely awful.

Podge_irl

NotCarrotRidge wrote: »

Since then, we've done precious little to address the issue on a long term basis.

Such as what?

The options available are all utterly middling and show no signs of ever being more. Sexton is, at least, somewhat better than middling these days. There is a crop of incredibly young flyhalves who might be pretty decent coming up.

You can't magic players out of thin air. We have gotten quite unlucky with a succession of flyhalves.

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

In former formers case with hyperbolic bs responses "Yeah world class carty will save us".

I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

Dubinusa

We have lost 2 matches, by less than 10 points. We were down to 14 men for 65 minutes in the 1st match. France beat us cos they are better atm.
I'm as frustrated as the lot of you. I want to see a changing of the guard. Murray has been God awful and underperforming for years. At best, he's ok. Unless you've blind, it was obvious that Cooney was vastly better than he was. So, Murray despite all his credit in the bank should have been benched a couple of years ago.
Sexton also has lost some form. He's old and he's not getting back to his vintage years. Also, Sexton does not look good behind a beaten pack. That said, he's still our best current option.
Everything is not all shyte though. There have been some breakthroughs. Keenan looks to be a very good 15. He's still got many years ahead of him. Connors also has been quite impressive. I do still prefer VDF, but I see Connors could be a long term option.
We don't know what the coaching team sees. Who knows if they see what want to see. But, when it goes tits up they should be held to account. As far as I can see, our backline play is guileless! Completely lacking in confidence and structure. That must fall on the coaching ticket. Very poor play linking up with each other, it's bizarre.
We can't seem to find the way around a rigid structure and when there's doubt, we boot it up in the air. It's like we evolve at a snails pace. It doesn't matter who's selected! Whether it is Larmour, our best lad with footwork, Ringrose, Aki etc, it looks forced and foreign to the players. But, Ringrose, Aki etc are our best players and there's nobody as good.
I think its a coaching problem as much as a selection problem. I think Catt will be under the microscope going forward. He's stealing a living, imo.
I have said there's been improvements, especially the set piece. It's not rosy, but it's a start. A couple of wins and England at home, it's doable. The pressing issue atm is wins. If we beat Italy and Scotland, who knows, we might beat England if we get our crap together.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

Former Former Former wrote: »

No, I am absolutely not saying the coaches are infallible, and I think you know it.

However, there is a persistent theme around sub-standard players being built up into these tragic heroes who would be world-class if only they could get a fair shake. It's nonsense IMO.

Whatever else you want to say about Carty, he's had plenty of chances to impress. What he did wrong to fall out of favour, I have no idea, but there it is. As I said, Ross Byrne should not be an obstacle to anyone who is genuinely test level, but Carty simply is not that.

I'll leave you to split the hairs.

ionadnapokot

Podge_irl wrote: »

Adding a proven forwards coach made complete sense.

Adding POC was either a) a complete crapshoot that seems to have paid off or b) astute judgement by Farrell of a completely unproven coach.

I don't believe in absolutes

It was the right move all things considered.
We'd all want Plumtree

But POC has technical attributes and personal characteristics that made him a good fit.
& €

Former Former Former

ClanofLams wrote: »

I'll leave you to split the hairs.

And I'll leave you to the childish temper tantrum at your provincial pet not being showered with glory.

CowboyTed

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm a Connacht fan and a big Carty fan, but I don't think he's done enough to be second choice 10. IMO he has a much higher ceiling than RB in terms of ability and playmaking, but even the most ardent Connacht fans would admit he's suffered runs of poor form and loss of confidence at crucial times. That's undoubtedly in coaches minds when selecting a squad. After Sexton I think he's the most naturally gifted footballing 10 we have. He offers far more than RB in open play. RB is much more consistent, albeit at a lower level, and kicks his goals better. He doesn't play on the gainline, which cripples our back play, but he kicks his goals. If Carty is in form then RB shouldn't get a look in, but it's not as simple as that.
TBH I haven't watched enough of BB or HB to be able to compare, but from what I have seen both are better playmakers than RB, and take it to the line much more often. With the decline of Sexton, hopefully they get more opportunities than Carty has had.

A lo of what you say there is fair... But you have to consider the resources and the teams Connacht play with those resources...

Take Connacht Back row, what Connacht back row would make the third string Leinster Back Row of Penny, Cohan, Murphy... Be honest...

This seriously effects the quality of ball he gets...

I would just love to see Marmion and Carty get a go together in the Irish set up... By the way i think Cooney and Burns should too and thought the Georgia game last year was a great chance... Could even used the English game as well...

It would have been a fair battle between the half backs...