Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Podge_irl

ionadnapokot wrote: »

I don't deal in absolutes

It was the right move all things considered.
We'd all want Plumtree

But POC has technical attributes and personnel characteristics that made him a good fit.
& €

POC had a fairly unimpressive coaching career that he stepped away from after not very long.

It was the equivalent of appointing Martin Johnson as England coach.

ClanofLams

Former Former Former wrote: »

And I'll leave you to the childish temper tantrum at your provincial pet not being showered with glory.

No tantrum here, just frustration at an inept coaching ticket and at those defending them on spurious grounds.

You weren't engaging in a good faith argument, nobody reasonable was claiming carty, cooney or anyone else left out were almost world class.

My criticisms of the coaching ticket are reasonably consistent, after the world cup I said it was a mistake to appoint Farrell when he was. I recall you responded with demands for who the alternatives were and then ruling them out for various reasons as if Ireland had no option but to appoint Farrell.

I criticised Schmidt for playing Murray and Sexton when they were out on their feet when the bench options weren't from Connacht (I can dig up the posts if needed).

You on the other hand haven't seen grounds (from what I have seen and I read on here most days) to criticise a coaching ticket during two and a half years of well below par form. Molloyjh gave examples of when he did - a bench selection, not including an extra loose head and Cooney being left out, which he hadn't commented much on he said - none of which reference tactics/on field performances etc - harsh stuff for a period when Ireland were demolished in Cardiff, lost to Japan, demolished by New Zealand and two defeats from two in 2021.

CowboyTed

TRC10 wrote: »

There havent been European games for him to play in. He came off the bench v Montpeliier. Then got injured in the warm up before the game he was due to start in. The last 2 group games were cancelled. Why does everyone have this romantic, wishful idea that a player has to play X european games or Y interpro games before they're eligible for selection.

I've said this before, Leinster are the best team in Europe and thus have a completely different agenda to Ireland. They have no reason to rush Harry Byrne. They dont have a world cup in 2 years that they desperately need to blood a new 10 for. I've seen every minute of professional rugby Harry Byrne has played and he is clearly good enough to be involved. And he has he highest ceiling of all the 10s on this island. The idea that he has to jump through these hoops even though hes clearly good enough is silly.

So Harry Byrne should get a temporary move to somewhere else if he want s International Rugby...

Harry hasn't played much higher level club rugby... Sorry why gives the right to jump players playing at higher level? You seem to think he gets that right because he is from Leinster.

aloooof

Podge_irl wrote: »

POC had a fairly unimpressive coaching career that he stepped away from after not very long.

It was the equivalent of appointing Martin Johnson as England coach.

I don't think it's comparing like with like, tbh. Johnson was England head coach. POC was likely added with a specific remit in mind.

Podge_irl

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think it's comparing like with like, tbh. Johnson was England head coach. POC was likely added with a specific remit in mind.

For sure, its not quite like for like.

But it was also a massive leap of faith. POC, excellent player that he was, has basically zero pedigree as a coach. It's worked well but could easily have gone tits up. So that is at least something that AF has done well.

ionadnapokot

Podge_irl wrote: »

POC had a fairly unimpressive coaching career that he stepped away from after not very long.

It was the equivalent of appointing Martin Johnson as England coach.

Except one was for a head coach job the other in what he specilised in as a player and a coach.

It begs the question as to why Easterby was left coaching both Forwards and the Defence in 2020.

CowboyTed

Podge_irl wrote: »

Oh I'm all aboard the "just throw Harry in there" train. But its also a perfectly legit point that he has sod all experience and has mostly displayed evidence of vast potential rather than anything else. Players have been thrown into test rugby too quickly before and it has not helped. In contract it didn't seem to do J Ryan any more. Its not a one size fits all thing.

I have no problem with Sexton playing for another year and Harry Byrne then taking over though. I couldn't care less that BB/RB/JC aren't getting more game time because none of them are particularly great.

So you are so sure Harry is the next great thing you have no interest in what is available today?

I remember players called Jackson, Carberry and even Madigan...

Sorry Harry Byrne is unproven... Looks a nice lad, hope he has a bright future but unproven...

The conversations had about him are unhelpful for him and highly arrogant... I gave a post about what Beudan Barrett had to do to become a NZ player and very little was bench warming behind more experience players...

CowboyTed

molloyjh wrote: »

I mean, there's stupid BS and then there's this.....

Barrett would be considered too non tactical for the Irish team putting possession above territory...
Sorry but that is the game plan... Barrett would struggle to get on this team his style would be contradictory to Murray's delivery (which is slow)....

Barrett is a exceptional player but would he suit Plan A which has been dictated by Murray and Sexton.... There is no Plan B...

I know my example is a bit extreme but can you see my point...

ionadnapokot

Zzippy wrote: »

I'm a Connacht fan and a big Carty fan, but I don't think he's done enough to be second choice 10. IMO he has a much higher ceiling than RB in terms of ability and playmaking, but even the most ardent Connacht fans would admit he's suffered runs of poor form and loss of confidence at crucial times. That's undoubtedly in coaches minds when selecting a squad. After Sexton I think he's the most naturally gifted footballing 10 we have. He offers far more than RB in open play. RB is much more consistent, albeit at a lower level, and kicks his goals better. He doesn't play on the gainline, which cripples our back play, but he kicks his goals. If Carty is in form then RB shouldn't get a look in, but it's not as simple as that.
TBH I haven't watched enough of BB or HB to be able to compare, but from what I have seen both are better playmakers than RB, and take it to the line much more often. With the decline of Sexton, hopefully they get more opportunities than Carty has had.

Curious as to when this run of poor form was.
Was it after the WC as i also think? You watch more of Connacht than me.
I think in 2019 before the WC he was the form Outhalf in Ireland.

I dont see a better Irish Outhalf at the moment. Frustrates me that he didnt get his chance in the Autumn because it was a wasted investment to give it to Sexton.
Also that Wales game was tailor made for Carty. His kicking game and his ability to take the ball to the line would have been a good fit against that Welsh defence.

CowboyTed

Podge_irl wrote: »

Beauden Barrett wouldn't get ahead of Ross Byrne but the similarly initialled Billy Burns manages it just fine?

Ross is still there....

Billy had a shocker against Wales. But because the only option is Ross, Billy has to play against France.

Think of the logic of playing badly and getting rewarded...

Podge_irl

CowboyTed wrote: »

So you are so sure Harry is the next great thing you have no interest in what is available today?

I remember players called Jackson, Carberry and even Madigan...

Sorry Harry Byrne is unproven... Looks a nice lad, hope he has a bright future but unproven...

The conversations had about him are unhelpful for him and highly arrogant... I gave a post about what Beudan Barrett had to do to become a NZ player and very little was bench warming behind more experience players...

Yes. Jackson is significantly better than all of the players currently available to us. But he isn't available and such is life.

I'm not sure of anything re: Harry. I am relatively sure that none of RB/JC/BB will ever be particularly great international fly halves.

VANG1

Can you name who you consider to be great outhalves in the other 5 nations, interested to see who you are comparing our lads too?

CowboyTed

Niallof9 wrote: »

i didn't say it was a disgrace. Cooney and Carty's was a disgrace. Ruddock, Dillane. All disgraceful imo. Particularly the latter in what happened.

Its not a huge issue as i outlined in certain positions. lets say though its part of an overall theme. And in the last big showpiece it failed miserably.

If it fails in this championship can we please have some honesty fro mcertain posters?

I don;t rate Aki. I like Farrell.

There is lads in the squad who have been getting away with murder. And there is lads who have been used as scapegoats. can people please accept this? cause you're lying to yourselves if you think otherwise.

Agree with a lot...

Marmion to me was the worst IMHO. The guy beat the All Blacks and got dropped after an injury..

Aki to me is ahead of Chris Farrell... The way I look at it, Chris has been beaten by Tom Farrell every time they played (An auld Munster supporter beside me said they bought the wrong Farrell)...

gally74

Jack is a gifted footballer, but suits off the cuff, high pace offloading, great at chips and cross field kicks,

Ireland’s plan is structured and safe, ruck retention, and BTW, its failing and will continue to fail,

Former Former Former

CowboyTed wrote: »

Ross is still there....

Billy had a shocker against Wales. But because the only option is Ross, Billy has to play against France.

Think of the logic of playing badly and getting rewarded...

The alternative is that players are dumped after one bad (15 minute) performance. Is that what you're arguing?

CowboyTed

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think it's comparing like with like, tbh. Johnson was England head coach. POC was likely added with a specific remit in mind.

I had no objection to POC coming in...

They played Finlay Belham on the wrong side of the scrum and then dropped him.

I am pretty sure that POC is a higher grade of coach than that...

CowboyTed

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yes. Jackson is significantly better than all of the players currently available to us. But he isn't available and such is life.

I'm not sure of anything re: Harry. I am relatively sure that none of RB/JC/BB will ever be particularly great international fly halves.

Very hard on Jack Carty there... Everytime he plays for Ireland he plays a game which is alien to him... Carty spent two years not kicking the ball from hand during the Lam years...

NotCarrotRidge

Podge_irl wrote: »

Such as what?

The options available are all utterly middling and show no signs of ever being more. Sexton is, at least, somewhat better than middling these days. There is a crop of incredibly young flyhalves who might be pretty decent coming up.

You can't magic players out of thin air. We have gotten quite unlucky with a succession of flyhalves.

Give them games. Real game time, starting against proper opposition. So what if we lose? We're losing anyway. The options aren't great, but Sexton is on the way out, no matter how he tries to deny it and any of those options would be better with more games in them. It took a long time for Jackson to get to the pitch of international rugby and it's clearly the same with the current crop. To reiterate, Jackson is gone 3 years now. Maybe Sexton is the best of a bad bunch, but he's not getting any better. To follow a lot of the arguments here to their logical conclusion, should we just persist with a deteriorating ten while dismissing the other options because whenever we throw them into a ****show they don't play great? And keep going until an oven ready option comes along? We've been spoilt rotten over the last two decades with Humphreys, ROG and Sexton in succession and maybe we've forgotten that they don't just grow on trees. In fact, Humph took quite a bit of development as I recall.

CowboyTed

Former Former Former wrote: »

The alternative is that players are dumped after one bad (15 minute) performance. Is that what you're arguing?

I actually started by saying the exact option...

But Billy has so little pressure from Ross he gets the starting spot in the next game and not the bench....

If Carty was there, Carty would have started the France game onmerit and jump Billy... Carty performance would evaluated again France and see can he keep his place. Billy would come off the bench to push him for his place...

This is healthy competition for a place... What we seemed to got is a Coach defending his orginal decision by doubling down...

redmca2

Is it expected that Farrell will review (add / delete) his overall squad prior to the Italy game?

sydthebeat

redmca2 wrote: »

Is it expected that Farrell will review (add / delete) his overall squad prior to the Italy game?

After he reads this thread, of course he will

stephen_n

CowboyTed wrote: »

I actually started by saying the exact option...

But Billy has so little pressure from Ross he gets the starting spot in the next game and not the bench....

If Carty was there, Carty would have started the France game onmerit and jump Billy... Carty performance would evaluated again France and see can he keep his place. Billy would come off the bench to push him for his place...

This is healthy competition for a place... What we seemed to got is a Coach defending his orginal decision by doubling down...

Carty is behind both Burns and Byrne in the coaches estimates. Why do you believe for one second that if he was in camp he would have been given the start ahead of Burns “on merit”. That just makes no sense what so ever.

TRC10

CowboyTed wrote: »

So Harry Byrne should get a temporary move to somewhere else if he want s International Rugby...

Harry hasn't played much higher level club rugby... Sorry why gives the right to jump players playing at higher level? You seem to think he gets that right because he is from Leinster.

What?! When did I say anything like his province had any relevance. You brought up the Leinster bias thing, which leaves me to believe you might have an issue with him because hes from Leinster. If there was an out half from any of the other provinces who've shown as much promise in the games they've played as Harry Byrne, I'd be advocating for them to be picked.

siltirocker

stephen_n wrote: »

Carty is behind both Burns and Byrne in the coaches estimates. Why do you believe for one second that if he was in camp he would have been given the start ahead of Burns “on merit”. That just makes no sense what so ever.

A tad dramatic.

Its not beyond the realm of logic and sense that he believes, possibly, that Carty has performed better for Ireland than Burns has. And perhaps he thinks Carty at Connacht looks better than Burns at Ulster. And that this might be taken into account.

aloooof

siltirocker wrote: »

A tad dramatic.

Its not beyond the realm of logic and sense that he believes, possibly, that Carty has performed better for Ireland than Burns has. And perhaps he thinks Carty at Connacht looks better than Burns at Ulster. And that this might be taken into account.

But that’s the point. Presumably it was already taken into account, and the coaches favoured Burns and R.Byrne and decided to leave Carty out of the squad altogether.

stephen_n

siltirocker wrote: »

A tad dramatic.

Its not beyond the realm of logic and sense that he believes, possibly, that Carty has performed better for Ireland than Burns has. And perhaps he thinks Carty at Connacht looks better than Burns at Ulster. And that this might be taken into account.

He’s not in the squad on merit, if that was such a thing. The coaches have had plenty of time to look at and work with Carty. They have decided “on merit” or rather on experience, that they rate the other two higher. So why would that change if he was in camp?

siltirocker

stephen_n wrote: »

He’s not in the squad on merit, if that was such a thing. The coaches have had plenty of time to look at and work with Carty. They have decided “on merit” or rather on experience, that they rate the other two higher. So why would that change if he was in camp?

I don't think it would change in camp. And I agree that he cearly didn't do it in training, or doesn't fit the game plan.

The initial call out was the ott call out was on the dramatic nature of it. As you said: "Why do you believe for one second that if he was in camp he would have been given the start ahead of Burns “on merit”. That just makes no sense what so ever."

Maybe he thought for one second Carty was the better option, and to them that made sense. We might not agree with it, but you can certainly see how it could have come into someone's thoughts, without the hyperbole.

b.gud

I've had to skip a few pages but have we come to a decision on who should start against Italy, ROG or Sexton?

stephen_n

siltirocker wrote: »

I don't think it would change in camp. And I agree that he cearly didn't do it in training, or doesn't fit the game plan.

The initial call out was the ott call out was on the dramatic nature of it. As you said: "Why do you believe for one second that if he was in camp he would have been given the start ahead of Burns “on merit”. That just makes no sense what so ever."

Maybe he thought for one second Carty was the better option, and to them that made sense. We might not agree with it, but you can certainly see how it could have come into someone's thoughts, without the hyperbole.

It makes no sense because the established pecking order rightly or wrongly is Sexton, Burns, Byrne, then we can’t be sure if it’s Harry Byrne or Carty as things stand. It makes no sense to think that if Carty had been in camp, he would have Jumped Burns anymore than Byrne would have. Except for provincial bias, my player is better than player x.

siltirocker

stephen_n wrote: »

It makes no sense because the established pecking order rightly or wrongly is Sexton, Burns, Byrne, then we can’t be sure if it’s Harry Byrne or Carty as things stand. It makes no sense to think that if Carty had been in camp, he would have Jumped Burns anymore than Byrne would have. Except for provincial bias, my player is better than player x.

I think you're understanding of the term blunt 'no sense' is much closer to the term 'unlikely'.