Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dual wheels

Is it time to give the job to rog or o Shea?

If Ireland lose to Italy, Farrell is out of a job.

In similar circumstances - what half back pairing would people be picking?

aloooof

siltirocker wrote: »

I don't think it would change in camp. And I agree that he cearly didn't do it in training, or doesn't fit the game plan.

The initial call out was the ott call out was on the dramatic nature of it. As you said: "Why do you believe for one second that if he was in camp he would have been given the start ahead of Burns “on merit”. That just makes no sense what so ever."

Maybe he thought for one second Carty was the better option, and to them that made sense. We might not agree with it, but you can certainly see how it could have come into someone's thoughts, without the hyperbole.

I think you’re conflating what what the original poster thought should have happened with what he said would happen i.e. what Farrell would do.

“Carty would have started the France game on merit” is distinct from “Carty should have started the France game on merit”. He wasn’t in the original squad so there’s zero reason to believe he would have started.

siltirocker

aloooof wrote: »

I think you’re conflating what what the original poster thought should have happened with what he said would happen i.e. what Farrell would do.

“Carty would have been there on merit” heavily implies the latter. When there’s zero reason to believe that’s the case, as he wasn’t in the original squad.

Ah look to be honest, As mentioned I don't actually agree with CowboyTed's assertion. I'm just jabbing at the language used in reply. All it does is patronise, undermines debate, etc and makes this place unbearable at certain times.

I'll leave it there though.

stephen_n

siltirocker wrote: »

I think you're understanding of the term blunt 'no sense' is much closer to the term 'unlikely'.

I think your idea of what makes sense and doesn’t, in context of the facts. Is quite odd. If you want to take offense at the words makes no sense, then I’m very sorry. Yet the point remains, what he said makes absolutely no sense in context of the selections we have seen.

Paul Smeenus

Read there that Lowe has attempted 20 tackles and missed half of them. Yikes.

The Inbetween is mine

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Read there that Lowe has attempted 20 tackles and missed half of them. Yikes.

Very pessimistic view to take there Paul.......surely he made half the tackles he attempted

Paul Smeenus

If you round up, he made all of them.

TomsOnTheRoof

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Read there that Lowe has attempted 20 tackles and missed half of them. Yikes.

Another concern is the amount of times our last defender is biting in. Happened twice on Sunday and once again against Wales. What's Easterby at?

siltirocker

stephen_n wrote: »

I think your idea of what makes sense and doesn’t, in context of the facts. Is quite odd. If you want to take offense at the words makes no sense, then I’m very sorry. Yet the point remains, what he said makes absolutely no sense in context of the selections we have seen.

I understand we're strangers on the internet but sarcastic or patronsing apologies just prove the point of my previous post.

Paul Smeenus

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Another concern is the amount of times our last defender is biting in. Happened twice on Sunday and once again against Wales. What's Easter by at?

Yeah, not good. You wonder if the p!ayers have full faith in (or understanding of) the system.

stephen_n

siltirocker wrote: »

I understand we're strangers on the internet but sarcastic or patronsing apologies just prove the point of my previous post.

It wasn’t an apology, I did nothing to apologize for. I’m sorry you took offense. I’m sorry you can’t seem to comprehend what I was saying. I’m not patronizing you. You however seem obsessed with taking offense when none is given. So I will leave it there, as you will clearly find offense no matter what I say.

Former Former Former

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Read there that Lowe has attempted 20 tackles and missed half of them. Yikes.

Yeah, but he attempted 20 tackles. Like, he is trying so that has to count for something?

TomsOnTheRoof

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Yeah, not good. You wonder if the p!ayers have full faith in (or understanding of) the system.

Maybe it's a lack of understanding in the system. It just seems strange though, it's such a fundamental error. It's the kind of thing that your coach would eat you for in youths so seeing internationals at it, especially international wingers, is bizarre.

siltirocker

stephen_n wrote: »

I’m sorry you took offense. I’m sorry you can’t seem to comprehend what I was saying. I’m not patronizing you.

How childish, and yes, patronising.

I'm not offended by your comments or posts. I'm simply calling your responses dramatic and unnecessarily patronising, and I stand by that.

WoollyRedHat

b.gud wrote: »

I've had to skip a few pages but have we come to a decision on who should start against Italy, ROG or Sexton?

Consensus is that Sexton should play if fit, but ROG to be an option off the bench as he needs the playing time in run up for Scottish game. Also questions if Johnny should maybe sit this one out completely with certain quarters suggesting he's hampering ROG's development.

TRC10

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

Consensus is that Sexton should play if fit, but ROG to be an option off the bench as he needs the playing time in run up for Scottish game. Also questions if Johnny should maybe sit this one out completely with certain quarters suggesting he's hampering ROG's development.

ROG isn't ready. He hasnt played enough heineken cup games yet.

nerd69

Anything to be said for David humphres or are we out on ulster players now

TRC10

nerd69 wrote: »

Anything to be said for David humphres or are we out on ulster players now

No. After Burns' kick v Wales, no Ulster player should ever play for Ireland again.

CowboyTed

TRC10 wrote: »

What?! When did I say anything like his province had any relevance. You brought up the Leinster bias thing, which leaves me to believe you might have an issue with him because hes from Leinster. If there was an out half from any of the other provinces who've shown as much promise in the games they've played as Harry Byrne, I'd be advocating for them to be picked.

How many European Games has Harry Byrne played in?

How many top club sides has he played against?

How many games has he had with the Leinster top string team?

I don't think you meant bias but asking Harry Byrne to save Ireland from such a position is highly unfair on Harry. Let him play his way up and play when he is ready... Even a couple of top club games under his belt would get more used to the pace... The pace difference between regular Pro14 and International is quite a big gap which a number of players have commented on before.

Leinster got targets, Ireland has got targets and so has Harry... Harry has loads of potential for the next 10 years, but even if he has Beuden Barrett potential, throwing into International at this stage would be wrong...

TRC10

CowboyTed wrote: »

How many European Games has Harry Byrne played in?

How many top club sides has he played against?

How many games has he had with the Leinster top string team?

I don't think you meant bias but asking Harry Byrne to save Ireland from such a position is highly unfair on Harry. Let him play his way up and play when he is ready... Even a couple of top club games under his belt would get more used to the pace... The pace difference between regular Pro14 and International is quite a big gap which a number of players have commented on before.

Leinster got targets, Ireland has got targets and so has Harry... Harry has loads of potential for the next 10 years, but even if he has Beuden Barrett potential, throwing into International at this stage would be wrong...

He hasn't started European games because there are no Eurpoean games, they got cancelled. And he was named to start one before and he got injured. Why is that so hard to understand? Everyone can see he's good enough. Hes played more than James Ryan and Andrew Porter had combined when they made their debuts.

theVersatile

No interpros plus no Euros makes Harry a dull boy. Unfortunately that's the nature of it - maybe he gets his go in the Summer. (and being in the team to play Northampton's academy doesn't count)

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

No interpros plus no Euros makes Harry a dull boy. Unfortunately that's the nature of it - maybe he gets his go in the Summer. (and being in the team to play Northampton's academy doesn't count)

It's like some people don't want Ireland to ever win a quarter final

Wales gave debuts to Ioan Llyod and Reece-Zammit at 19. We have a 21 year old who is clearly good enough and were like "nah he hasnt played X games in a competition where there has been 1/3 of the games there usually is.

theVersatile

TRC10 wrote: »

It's like some people don't want Ireland to ever win a quarter final

As if Harry Byrne getting capped against Italy this Six Nations will be the difference between us winning a World Cup quarter final or not?

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

As if Harry Byrne getting capped against Italy this Six Nations will be the difference between us winning a World Cup quarter final or not?

Never said it will be the difference. But it will help. What wont help is investing in 27 and 26 year olds who aren't good enough now and wont be in 2023.

theVersatile

TRC10 wrote: »

Never said it will be the difference. But it will help. What wont help is investing in 27 and 26 year olds who aren't good enough now and wont be in 2022.

Neither will throwing immature youngsters into a sink or swim situation. Guys like LRZ, James Ryan etc. are exceptions to the rule (not to mention LRZ was burning up the English Premiership - slightly higher value experience than the Pro14). As it is, Harry isn't getting capped for any combination of the following reasons:

(a) he isn't good enough/overrated.
(b) there are more talented or better scheme fit options ahead of him
(c) he hasn't played enough at a high level (i.e interpros and European Cup) for the coaches to make a judgment regarding point (a).
(d) he's underperforming in training when he has been involved, and needs point (c) gametime to develop his ability and gain more experience.
(e) he is plenty good enough, but has identified work ons which he needs to develop in training and show off in point (c) games - as somebody who hasn't seen enough of Byrne I couldn't comment as to whether this is comms, defence, space ID or some other aspect of his game.

Now, in my opinion, its mainly (b) (c) and (e) - the others are just alternative suggestions. He's not the perfect megastar yet so there's no point in suggesting (e) is false (someone better positioned might be able to comment on some of his work ons - I'm more of a Munster guy). Point (b) is probably going to be controversial because there are people who believe Ross or Billy will never be good enough (premature IMO - but there's no such thing as an incorrect opinion) and the same goes for (c), some like the idea of trial by fire. I think from a man management point of view and from a value of experience point of view, it isn't the right option; and that Summer tour would be the ideal time to try stuff out.

Players peak at different ages too so it's a bit strange IMO to write off players at 26 and 27 as "never going to be good enough". Cooney only hit his stride around that stage having previously bounced around Leinster and Connachts ranks. I'm sure there are other examples of late blooming players who only improved with experience coming even into their 30s.

TRC10

theVersatile wrote: »

Neither will throwing immature youngsters into a sink or swim situation. Guys like LRZ, James Ryan etc. are exceptions to the rule (not to mention LRZ was burning up the English Premiership - slightly higher value experience than the Pro14). As it is, Harry isn't getting capped for any combination of the following reasons:

(a) he isn't good enough/overrated.
(b) there are more talented or better scheme fit options ahead of him
(c) he hasn't played enough at a high level (i.e interpros and European Cup) for the coaches to make a judgment regarding point (a).
(d) he's underperforming in training when he has been involved, and needs point (c) gametime to develop his ability and gain more experience.
(e) he is plenty good enough, but has identified work ons which he needs to develop in training and show off in point (c) games - as somebody who hasn't seen enough of Byrne I couldn't comment as to whether this is comms, defence, space ID or some other aspect of his game.

Now, in my opinion, its mainly (b) (c) and (e) - the others are just alternative suggestions. He's not the perfect megastar yet so there's no point in suggesting (e) is false (someone better positioned might be able to comment on some of his work ons - I'm more of a Munster guy). Point (b) is probably going to be controversial because there are people who believe Ross or Billy will never be good enough (premature IMO - but there's no such thing as an incorrect opinion) and the same goes for (c), some like the idea of trial by fire. I think from a man management point of view and from a value of experience point of view, it isn't the right option; and that Summer tour would be the ideal time to try stuff out.

Players peak at different ages too so it's a bit strange IMO to write off players at 26 and 27 as "never going to be good enough". Cooney only hit his stride around that stage having previously bounced around Leinster and Connachts ranks. I'm sure there are other examples of late blooming players who only improved with experience coming even into their 30s.

Cooney, to use your term, is an "exception to the rule" it's rare enough that players become world class at 28 having shown very little up to that point. So investing in two 26/27 year olds at the expense of younger guys whove shown more would be very foolish when its unlikely either will be good enough.

I'm glad you were honest enough to admit you havent seen much of him. I've seen every minute hes played for Leinster, and I can tell you he is a better player than his brother. And I think Leo and stuart know that aswell seen as he was named to start ahead of Ross in leinsters last European game. If it weren't for an injury/cancellations, theres a good chance hed have at least 2 european starts to his name.

Downlinz

TRC10 wrote: »

It's like some people don't want Ireland to ever win a quarter final

Wales gave debuts to Ioan Llyod and Reece-Zammit at 19. We have a 21 year old who is clearly good enough and were like "nah he hasnt played X games in a competition where there has been 1/3 of the games there usually is.

Maybe we're overhyping Harry Byrne, we have no idea how good he is or could be when he wasn't been properly tested at the highest level and presumably Farrell and his backroom staff don't consider him ready yet.

At this stage our RWC hopes probably come down to Joey Carbery returning to full fitness and avoiding injury for the next 2 years. Fingers crossed on that one. :pac:

UAEguy2020

Downlinz wrote: »

Maybe we're overhyping Harry Byrne, we have no idea how good he is or could be when he wasn't been properly tested at the highest level and presumably Farrell and his backroom staff don't consider him ready yet.

At this stage our RWC hopes probably come down to Joey Carbery returning to full fitness and avoiding injury for the next 2 years. Fingers crossed on that one. :pac:

Well we have a history of not spotting young talent when we see it so the odds would be in favour of that being the case this time.

We know how good Harry Byrne is, anyone who questions that has their head in the sand or has never watched him play.

ujjjjjjjjj

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Well we have a history of not spotting young talent when we see it so the odds would be in favour of that being the case this time.

We know how good Harry Byrne is, anyone who questions that has their head in the sand or has never watched him play.

Total agree, I just see quality and hugh potential with Harry. Drop him in now v Italy, see how he goes. You know what we get from Ross and J10.

I can't fathom what Farrell sees in Burns, he ie just not going to cut it at international level. He wouldn't even make the Leinster squad let alone start a game.

I genuinely worry about Farrell's judgement re Burns. It is so clear to me he isn't good enough and Harry, well no guarantees but he could well be.....