Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

CowboyTed

siltirocker wrote: »

Ah look to be honest, As mentioned I don't actually agree with CowboyTed's assertion. I'm just jabbing at the language used in reply. All it does is patronise, undermines debate, etc and makes this place unbearable at certain times.

I'll leave it there though.

Fair enough... We are all spitballing here anyway...

My premise that Carty would have been involved all along and the games given to Ross would have been given to Carty...

I am just trying to show that a player can have a bad game drop pecking order but still be in the squad. So you could drop from starting against to France to on the Bench and coming on against France...

There just seems very little competition between Burns and Ross...

As for Carty not being picked... I think it might have less to do with Carty's play or pecking order...

Carty & Marmion/Cooney is a predominantly possession running half back... Sexton/Murray is a predominantly territory and squeeze half back... Sexton and Murray are Plan A, our subs are more of Plan A (Burns is a bit of both).
I was saying how about a plan B...

This highly simplistic... But we went to the last RWC with one plan that was well figured out by the time we got there by other teams.

CowboyTed

TRC10 wrote: »

It's like some people don't want Ireland to ever win a quarter final

Wales gave debuts to Ioan Llyod and Reece-Zammit at 19. We have a 21 year old who is clearly good enough and were like "nah he hasnt played X games in a competition where there has been 1/3 of the games there usually is.

Reece-Zammit has been playing top club rugby since he was 18. He played in Heinekein cup rugby in December 2019 (against Connacht)...

He played off the bench in Oct 2020.... His progression has been fast but he started getting exposure to top level rugby at a young age... He wasn't sitting behind more established players on big games...

Maybe Harry should have been picked over Ross if is ahead of him in Leinster...

CowboyTed

theVersatile wrote: »

Neither will throwing immature youngsters into a sink or swim situation. Guys like LRZ, James Ryan etc. are exceptions to the rule (not to mention LRZ was burning up the English Premiership - slightly higher value experience than the Pro14). As it is, Harry isn't getting capped for any combination of the following reasons:

(a) he isn't good enough/overrated.
(b) there are more talented or better scheme fit options ahead of him
(c) he hasn't played enough at a high level (i.e interpros and European Cup) for the coaches to make a judgment regarding point (a).
(d) he's underperforming in training when he has been involved, and needs point (c) gametime to develop his ability and gain more experience.
(e) he is plenty good enough, but has identified work ons which he needs to develop in training and show off in point (c) games - as somebody who hasn't seen enough of Byrne I couldn't comment as to whether this is comms, defence, space ID or some other aspect of his game.

Now, in my opinion, its mainly (b) (c) and (e) - the others are just alternative suggestions. He's not the perfect megastar yet so there's no point in suggesting (e) is false (someone better positioned might be able to comment on some of his work ons - I'm more of a Munster guy). Point (b) is probably going to be controversial because there are people who believe Ross or Billy will never be good enough (premature IMO - but there's no such thing as an incorrect opinion) and the same goes for (c), some like the idea of trial by fire. I think from a man management point of view and from a value of experience point of view, it isn't the right option; and that Summer tour would be the ideal time to try stuff out.

Players peak at different ages too so it's a bit strange IMO to write off players at 26 and 27 as "never going to be good enough". Cooney only hit his stride around that stage having previously bounced around Leinster and Connachts ranks. I'm sure there are other examples of late blooming players who only improved with experience coming even into their 30s.

There is also the other thing to mention... Harry's style might be to run the ball more and look at a more possession game compared to what Ireland plays...

but i do think your reasons are more likely...

CowboyTed

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Total agree, I just see quality and hugh potential with Harry. Drop him in now v Italy, see how he goes. You know what we get from Ross and J10.

I can't fathom what Farrell sees in Burns, he ie just not going to cut it at international level. He wouldn't even make the Leinster squad let alone start a game.

I genuinely worry about Farrell's judgement re Burns. It is so clear to me he isn't good enough and Harry, well no guarantees but he could well be.....

Personally I would have had Sexton, Carty and Harry is the squad... This would have meant playing these guys in the Autumn.

Sexton rested for Italy and Carty and harry fighting it out for the starting place... If I think Harry is good enough to start I would go with him(Carty gets 20min), if I think he is still a bit raw I would give him 20 min...

I wouldn't just throw Harry in if I thought he was undercooked for the international pace. The change of pace it the big difference moving up the ranks. I would want Harry to succeed (give benefit of the doubt) but I would make him earn it too...

TRC10

CowboyTed wrote: »

Reece-Zammit has been playing top club rugby since he was 18. He played in Heinekein cup rugby in December 2019 (against Connacht)...

He played off the bench in Oct 2020.... His progression has been fast but he started getting exposure to top level rugby at a young age... He wasn't sitting behind more established players on big games...

Maybe Harry should have been picked over Ross if is ahead of him in Leinster...

He may have started at a young age, sure. But they've been playing professional rugby for roughly the same period of time. Also worth noting that LRZ didnt have 2 internationals ahead of him when he came through, as Harry does. So just because LRZ was playing more doesn't mean hes better. H.Byrne would start for a lot of premiership clubs.

CowboyTed

TRC10 wrote: »

He may have started at a young age, sure. But they've been playing professional rugby for roughly the same period of time. Also worth noting that LRZ didnt have 2 internationals ahead of him when he came through, as Harry does. So just because LRZ was playing more doesn't mean hes better. H.Byrne would start for a lot of premiership clubs.

There is not a lot I would disagree with and I would definitely give him the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things (see my previous post)...

I would have been using him in Autumn as a replacement possibly... LRZ had an easier path, Harry could have had loads experience if he went to Connacht(seems a bit ruthless but loan to gain minutes is key)...

LRZ got his experience easier...

This is about the pace of the International game and jumping from pro14 up to International... Still would loved to see him on the pitch for Italy, 60 or 20 min...

But International minutes at 10 were given to Billy and Ross in Autumn...

Question is why did Ross get those when he isn't good enough to displace Billy one position after he having a bad day against Wales?

Ross got the most minutes at 10 during the Autumn(I think)...

Louis Friend

Dual wheels wrote: »

Is it time to give the job to rog or o Shea?

ROG has plotted his coaching career very nicely...France, New Zealand, and back to France. It seems inevitable that he will coach Ireland, and fair play to him for the way he’s gone about it even if I do find him utterly objectionable as a person.

Conor O’Shea on the other hand was an abject failure with Italy. He was tasked with developing them and his legacy is 27 Six Nations defeats in a row and rising. We’d be better off with that Greg O’Shea fella from Love Island, at least he’d get more women through the turnstiles.

prawnsambo

Louis Friend wrote: »

ROG has plotted his coaching career very nicely...France, New Zealand, and back to France. It seems inevitable that he will coach Ireland, and fair play to him for the way he’s gone about it even if I do find him utterly objectionable as a person.

Conor O’Shea on the other hand was an abject failure with Italy. He was tasked with developing them and his legacy is 27 Six Nations defeats in a row and rising. We’d be better off with that Greg O’Shea fella from Love Island, at least he’d get more women through the turnstiles.

Conor O'Shea had the job of coaching the national squad and also developing the club game. A bit of a mountain to climb, but the work he put into the latter is starting to show some success. That was his role with the RFU back before he went to Italy and it was one of the reasons he got that job in the first place. I wouldn't have him as a coach, but he does have the skills and experience for development work.

stephen_n

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Well we have a history of not spotting young talent when we see it so the odds would be in favour of that being the case this time.

We know how good Harry Byrne is, anyone who questions that has their head in the sand or has never watched him play.

Do we really? What is this history? Who are you referring to?

Interested Observer

ROG I'd say will coach Munster before Ireland but I think he'll be Ireland coach some day, and to be fair he seems to be doing well coaching. I don't think he'd take the job now if he was asked tbh, he's talked a lot about getting coaching experience etc. He's also purposefully stayed away from Munster I think for the moment.

b.gud

Interested Observer wrote: »

He's also purposefully stayed away from Munster I think for the moment.

Good call, better to hold out for a job with a good team like Leinster

stephen_n

Interested Observer wrote: »

ROG I'd say will coach Munster before Ireland but I think he'll be Ireland coach some day, and to be fair he seems to be doing well coaching. I don't think he'd take the job now if he was asked tbh, he's talked a lot about getting coaching experience etc. He's also purposefully stayed away from Munster I think for the moment.

Given what he is doing with La Rochelle, Munster might be a bit of a sideways step in terms of progression. By 2023 he could probably step into the Irish role without ever coaching a province.

That’s not meant to be disparaging of Munster by the way. In case anyone takes it that way. Just at the rate he’s going, he will have La Rochelle challenging for the T14 and possibly Europe too. Any top club side would be at the very least a sideways step.

Paul Smeenus

I will say this - I was extremely sceptical about POC being involved in the coaching set-up.

There has been a marked improvement this Six Nations in our lineout and our scrum - I don't know if he is directly responsible for the former, but Occam's razor would suggest he is, and if so, it has proven a smart, savvy decision.

I still think there's a nonsense conflation of the idea that someone's a good player and capable of being a good coach, band I thought POC joining the team was more or less a canny PR move.

There were real systemic issues with the lineout previously, and if we get those ironed out, that's great news. Herring has been unconvincing about the pitch this 6N, and if a good, functioning lineout allows us to transition Kelleher in, so much the better. His try was off a picked-off throw, so still not sure his basics are there yet. But there's no chance for him to improve if the whole set-up is a mess.

Bluwave

Hi I’m new,
Been reading for a long time, 1st post.

The way I see this years competition the only saving grace we can have is if we beat England.

The Italy game doesn’t matter as much as the England game to me. We know we can beat Italy, but we haven’t beaten England in a long time and have suffered humiliation from them. Their last visit to The Aviva was particularly embarrassing.

So I would put Sexton and Murray in the bench against Italy, and only give them 10 minutes unless we are losing. Then give them the second 40 minutes against Scotland and start them against England.

I don’t care if we lose to Italy and give youth experience, in reality our youth should be good enough to beat them anyway, but if we rush sexton and Murray back for the Italy game and lose one or both of them then we run the risk of welcoming a strengthening England to the Aviva and getting turned over again by them.

England started the 6 nations poorly, they are guaranteed to finish it strongly and we need to target that game above all else.

tgdaly

prawnsambo wrote: »

Conor O'Shea had the job of coaching the national squad and also developing the club game. A bit of a mountain to climb, but the work he put into the latter is starting to show some success. That was his role with the RFU back before he went to Italy and it was one of the reasons he got that job in the first place. I wouldn't have him as a coach, but he does have the skills and experience for development work.

I'd also say that Italy's relative improvement at under 20 level the last 2 years is thanks to some of the work he did in the background

Lost Ormond

tgdaly wrote: »

I'd also say that Italy's relative improvement at under 20 level the last 2 years is thanks to some of the work he did in the background

I dont think it has been O Shea's influence at 20s as much as Steve Aboud who O Shea got to leave IRFU to join the Italian union.
He was Head of Technical Direction for 7 years with IRFU so in charge of coach, player development and had been national coach development manager before that where he led the irfu coaching programme so designing and managing the coaching courses and assessments etc
For last 5 years he has been head technical direction with Italian Union so improvement in 18s/20s would be more his work than O Sheas

Scythica

Hello all, been a while.

I honestly don't feel too bad about our results so far; on another day we'd be 2 from 2 and that's how the cookie crumbles.

If someone told me before each match we'd play 65 minutes with 14 men and still be in it at the end. I'd of taken it.

If someone told me we'd be in it to win it against France at the end, I'd of taken it.

Forward pack is looking strong even with injuries, imagine the chaos Doris could have caused in these matches. I thought POC was a publicity appointment but for whatever reason our pack is doing better. Main issues with the pack is finding Healy's successor.

Halfbacks we are where we are, happy to look at other options and yes the ANC may have been the best time but moving the incumbents to the bench for a few games seems prudent. With my Ulster bias I'd try and Cooney-Burns axis for a game or 2 but happy to see Casey or whoever else get gametime.

Backs I feel Stockdale or Balacoune could make a difference. However Keenan looks like a solid 15; Lowe aside from defensive frailties (whether his or system issues) seems a good guy to have even just for the left boot. Earls is the next to be phased out I feel, would be a good 23 man to have though.

The only disappointing thing for me is our lack of incisiveness in attack. We look solid in most other aspects. France and Wales seem capable of a good counterattack 1-2 and get the try. We appear to be more of a bruiser going forward and sometimes look bereft of ideas.

Bit of a ramble really but things going forward I'd love is for:

- Pay whatever to get Plumtree back alongside POC
- Look for a new attacking structure / skills / backs coach however this isn't an overnight fix.

crossman47

Louis Friend wrote: »

ROG has plotted his coaching career very nicely...France, New Zealand, and back to France. It seems inevitable that he will coach Ireland, and fair play to him for the way he’s gone about it even if I do find him utterly objectionable as a person.

Thats a very nasty comment.

NotCarrotRidge

Former Former Former wrote: »

Yeah, but he attempted 20 tackles. Like, he is trying so that has to count for something?

When I was about to sit the leaving, my granny told me that as long as I did my best, I'd be grand, and that she thought they took that into account. It should be the same for wingers, I think.

Dual wheels

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Read there that Lowe has attempted 20 tackles and missed half of them. Yikes.

Lowe is as bad in defense as stockdale

The Inbetween is mine

Dual wheels wrote: »

Lowe is as bad in defense as stockdale

No, I don't think that's right... I think Stockdale is every bit as good as Lowe in defence

Paul Smeenus

James "Half & Half" Lowe

Louis Friend

crossman47 wrote: »

Thats a very nasty comment.

I don’t thing the phrase “utterly objectionable” qualifies as “very nasty” in this day and age.

Former Former Former

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

James "Half & Half" Lowe

His nickname at Leinster is Sex Panther. 50% of the time, he makes his tackle every time.

Paul Smeenus

Former Former Former wrote: »

His nickname at Leinster is Sex Panther. 50% of the time, he makes his tackle every time.

Like Stockdale when he came through - his hundred-to-one attacking gambits came off nine times out of ten.

Dubinusa

Was just thinking. What if Farrell is reluctant to bring in Marmion, Cooney and Carty? What if he believes that bringing them in would show that he got the selection wrong? Is it possible that he's hesitant to upend his original selection, due to perception that he made mistakes?
I would assume that he is happy enough with our effort minus 1 player, against Wales. I would guess that he has doubts about last weekends effort. Or maybe, he feels that we just didn't get the bounce of the ball.
At this stage, I think Burns should start v Italy. No sense is destroying his confidence after a couple of matches. It's possible that the coaching ticket do think that Burns and Byrne can get up to speed and perform at the level required. But, Italy would be a good start for either 10's to possibly build some confidence. Again, we don't see the whole picture and don't have all the information, so there's the possibility that the coaching staff believe Billy and Ross are definitely the next up after Sexton.
3 matches left and 3 wins, I think will ease everyone's doubts. But, on the other hand...

Podge_irl

Dubinusa wrote: »

Was just thinking. What if Farrell is reluctant to bring in Marmion, Cooney and Carty? What if he believes that bringing them in would show that he got the selection wrong? Is it possible that he's hesitant to upend his original selection, due to perception that he made mistakes?

I'm relatively sure that is not how international coaches think about things. They would never reach that level of success with that kind of thought process.

Wegians89

Just something on Carty that doesn’t seem to have been mentioned. Away to racing and at home to Munster are two games I don’t think Carty gets enough credit for. He made mistakes and missed kicks in both these games but Connacht weren’t far from winning either of those games and it was mainly down to cartys game management.

Connacht had pretty much half a pack for both those games thanks to covid, but they clawed back into the games. Inexperience and poor decisions made by the leaders on both those days let Connacht down and I doubt the likes of Henderson, furlong or James Ryan would make those mistakes. Carty has a spark that can give a team a chance even when they’re playing ****e, could even see it at 6 nations level against wales. He’s the best back up to sexton in my eyes

hahashake

Scythica wrote: »

Bit of a ramble really but things going forward I'd love is for:

- Pay whatever to get Plumtree back alongside POC

Did Plumtree leave or was he not renewed?

Either way I'm not sure anything less than head coach would be enough to tempt him away, at least in these financially precarious times where they can't break the bank for an assistant coach.

Lost Ormond

hahashake wrote: »

Did Plumtree leave or was he not renewed?

Either way I'm not sure anything less than head coach would be enough to tempt him away, at least in these financially precarious times where they can't break the bank for an assistant coach.

He left to return to New Zealand to be closer to him family