Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

theVersatile

theVersatile wrote: »

There's no shame in going full strength vs Italy. Just look at England last week

It's starting to look like Farrell has no confidence in his own ability to come up with and implement a coherent and effective team strategy so will just revert to the old guard for the lack of any other plan.

Jump_In_Jack

To be fair, I don't think any coach after losing the opening two matches would decide to throw a few uncapped players in to experiment, and the players that played the opening two matches have all been good with the exception of James Lowe's defence.

bayern

21 year old Jack Crowley would be better off leaving the country too along with Harry Byrne and every other young 9 and 10.

bayern

bayern wrote: »

21 year old Jack Crowley would be better off leaving the country too along with Harry Byrne and every other young 9 and 10.

definitely 9

never said that

said that development is stunted compared to other players of a similar age in Europe and it's true

Andy Farrell has no confidence in their development levels he has said

Doesn't have much confidence in himself as a coach so is not going to trust a young player who has limited development experience

it's his first lead coach job after all

aloooof

glasso wrote: »

It's starting to look like Farrell has no confidence in his own ability to come up with and implement a coherent and effective team strategy so will just revert to the old guard for the lack of any other plan.

Or he thinks that the old guard are the best players available TO implement a coherent and effective strategy? Occam's razor.

aloooof

aloooof wrote: »

Or he thinks that the old guard are the best players available TO implement a coherent and effective strategy? Occam's razor.

what strategy?

in nearly 18 months of his tenure we've only seen bashing into contact and with good defence strategy and disciplined execution (.e.g. vs France and England) that's been shown to be ineffective

hence his fallback is Sexton and Murray

if actually had a coherent plan and confidence in himself he might be inclined to trust his ability to get younger players to implement it.

Former Former Former

glasso wrote: »

what strategy?

in nearly 18 months of his tenure we've only seen bashing into contact and with good defence strategy and disciplined execution (.e.g. vs France and England) that's been shown to be ineffective

hence his fallback is Sexton and Murray

if actually had a coherent plan and confidence in himself he might be inclined to trust his ability to get younger players to implement it.

His first match was one year and 18 days ago. Hasn't exactly been a disruption-free year either.

He's not doing well but he's entitled to more time to prove himself IMO.

Not throwing Harry Byrne in at the deep end is not something I'd criticise him for either.

Former Former Former

Former Former Former wrote: »

His first match was one year and 18 days ago. Hasn't exactly been a disruption-free year either.

He's not doing well but he's entitled to more time to prove himself IMO.

I believe that he was in charge of the Irish squad, team, tactics etc from October 19 2019 after the loss to New Zealand

irishbucsfan

Ah yes, remember when Andy Farrell said he has no confidence in the development levels of young Irish players.

It’s easy to get angry about the way things are going when you live in a fantasy

Clegg

Bernard Jackman and Murray Kinsella were talking about Ireland's performances so far on this weeks Rugby Weekly podcast and I think they did a good job in spelling out the problems Ireland face.

They believe there's a disconnect between the individual coaches in how we should be playing and that's then feeding into the players on the pitch. We've a very solid set piece and good defensive lineout. So we should be able to launch attacks from a stable scrum and counterattacks from pilfered line outs. But the overall strategy is to play for three phases and to kick contestables. So we're wasting our solid platform by giving the ball back.

They also mentioned the lack of organisation in our kicking game. We're clearly set up to kick, but we're seeing forwards being the main chasers too often. We're kicking contestables for players who most likely won't reach the ball in time.

Then there's the problem in personnel. Billy Burns and JGP are ball playing halfbacks but played a kicking game last week. Yet when Ross Byrne, whose major strength is his tactical kicking, came on early as a HIA sub he kicked just once from hand.

There's more problems too like the lack of clarity in attack once we actually play with ball in hand. And while that's a huge problem it isn't actually the most pressing one. We're a team that doesn't actually know how it wants to play at a very basic level.

Former Former Former

Has there ever been a coach of the national team or a province who wasn't savaged by an angry minority of people in their early days? I honestly can't remember one.

Dubinusa

For all the talk of young lads not being ready etc, there's Ronan Kelleher. He had about 10 Leinster appearances and went right into the Irish team. Different position, true.... but

dub_skav

Former Former Former wrote: »

Has there ever been a coach of the national team or a province who wasn't savaged by an angry minority of people in their early days? I honestly can't remember one.

Was it George Hook savaged Joe in the early days?

Must love hardship

dub_skav wrote: »

Was it George Hook savaged Joe in the early days?

Was he ever positive about anyone?

molloyjh

glasso wrote: »

It's starting to look like Farrell has no confidence in his own ability to come up with and implement a coherent and effective team strategy so will just revert to the old guard for the lack of any other plan.

And here we have a classic example of projection.

molloyjh

Dubinusa wrote: »

For all the talk of young lads not being ready etc, there's Ronan Kelleher. He had about 10 Leinster appearances and went right into the Irish team. Different position, true.... but

Exactly. Farrell has had no issue blooding players regardless of their age. He is clearly of the "if they're good enough, they're old enough" mindset.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

And here we have a classic example of projection.

really?

I hardly think that it's an outrageous comment

He hasn't been able to put an effective stamp on the team so far in terms of what we have seen on the field since he took over so it's a natural reaction when under pressure after Ireland's worst ever start to a six nations campaign (even though it's vs Italy who haven't won a six nations game in 6 years) to revert to the players in key positions that he has been familiar with since working with Ireland after his arrival in January 2016

TomsOnTheRoof

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. Farrell has had no issue blooding players regardless of their age. He is clearly of the "if they're good enough, they're old enough" mindset.

But Kelleher has struggled in a few of the games he has played and therein lies the issue for a lot of people. Kelleher got selected despite the fact that he's a hooker who occasionally struggles at the lineout. Fair enough. The problem for a lot of people is that you then have other players who aren't getting opportunities yet don't seem to have the same glaring issues. Coombes is a prime example of this. He has arguably been the form back rower in the country yet he was released from the squad in favour of Conan. What harm was there in having a look at him against Italy? Casey is another. He was benched but not given the opportunity.

Farrell may have blooded some younger players but there are legitimate questions surrounding his selection policies. It's no surprise to me that Farrell is overly cautious when it comes to this area of coaching however as Schmidt was the same. In fact I think many would agree that it was Joe's biggest flaw.

Just to clarify, I'm not for one minute advocating that the coaching squad give into some fan's shiny new toy delusion but I would like to see them give players such as those mentioned above (and others) an opportunity, especially given that we are an ageing team and we are struggling.

irishbucsfan

dub_skav wrote: »

Was it George Hook savaged Joe in the early days?

In his first season with Leinster yeah. Said Schmidt wasn’t right for Leinster and only Munster would make it out of the pool stages of the Irish provinces if I remember, and in the end Munster didn’t make it out, Ulster and Leinster did, and Leinster won the tournament. Incredible analyst

.ak

'Schmidt's lost the dressing room', after 2 games I believe....

molloyjh

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

But Kelleher has struggled in a few of the games he has played and therein lies the issue for a lot of people. Kelleher got selected despite the fact that he's a hooker who occasionally struggles at the lineout. Fair enough. The problem for a lot of people is that you then have other players who aren't getting opportunities yet don't seem to have the same glaring issues. Coombes is a prime example of this. He has arguably been the form back rower in the country yet he was released from the squad in favour of Conan. What harm was there in having a look at him against Italy? Casey is another. He was benched but not given the opportunity.

Farrell may have blooded some younger players but there are legitimate questions surrounding his selection policies. It's no surprise to me that Farrell is overly cautious when it comes to this area of coaching however as Schmidt was the same. In fact I think many would agree that it was Joe's biggest flaw.

Just to clarify, I'm not for one minute advocating that the coaching squad give into some fan's shiny new toy delusion but I would like to see them give players such as those mentioned above (and others) an opportunity, especially given that we are an ageing team and we are struggling.

From memory the line out at Leinster was pretty decent when Kelleher broke in. I think it struggled a lot in the last 12 months, but thats been the case no matter the hooker. So I'm not sure the issues were with Kelleher. Its not like the Irish line outs were great past year when he wasn't involved either....

Also, these guys were given opportunities. Getting called up to the squad is an opportunity. Players then need to show that they can do enough in training to get selected. We already know that if they do enough, they will be selected. Guys like Kelleher and Doris are proof of that. If they are not getting selected then they are clearly not proving to the coaches that they are ready.

As for the Italy game, we'll I've gone blue in the face in the last week trying to explain why I think we want to go full strength there. We need to build foundations for future performances. We can't do that by changing the side. We are clearly struggling to implement a new game plan. We have shown our best when we've had a strong team out, such as that first half against France in Oct. We need to steady the ship ahead of Scotland. We can only really do that by going full strength again, because these are the guys who will be playing vs Scotland and England.

Ultimately we have short, medium and long term goals to meet. Generally speaking these will each run into one another and have dependencies on one another. They aren't goals that exist in isolation. Failing in the short term will have impacts on the long term. We need to be cognisant of that when looking at what the coaches are trying to do.

P.Walnuts

.ak wrote: »

'Schmidt's lost the dressing room', after 2 games I believe....

Yeah I remember a backlash after the loss to Australia, actually remember you in particular defending Schmidt saying we're were trying new things that just weren't clicking

I thought you were being overtly optimistic but obviously turned out to be correct

bilston

swiwi_ wrote: »

The Armchair Ride

- starring Craig Casey & Harry Byrne

Hawwy. Hawwy is wot bwings us togeder today. Hawwy and Cwaig, that bwessed awangement, that team wifin a team. And forum wuv, tru wuv, will fowow you foweva.

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Yeah I remember a backlash after the loss to Australia, actually remember you in particular defending Schmidt saying we're were trying new things that just weren't clicking

I thought you were being overtly optimistic but obviously turned out to be correct

Mad to think that that is over 7 years ago!

Must love hardship

.ak wrote: »

'Schmidt's lost the dressing room', after 2 games I believe....

Neill Francis stuck the boot on also..

I’m still trying to figure out what sort of game Leinster are trying to play,” wrote the former Ireland international. “And it could be Christmas by the time it comes to me.” …. “I don’t know Joe Schmidt but some of the things he has tried to get his players to do thus far this season – well, he makes Walter Mitty look quite unimaginative.”



 “One suspects it is too late for Schmidt to get the team back on the rails,”- g hook

.ak

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Yeah I remember a backlash after the loss to Australia, actually remember you in particular defending Schmidt saying we're were trying new things that just weren't clicking

I thought you were being overtly optimistic but obviously turned out to be correct

Jeez, hope we don't have any arguments.... you'll clearly bring up the fact I almost burnt the house down that time when I got drunk and made beans at 3am.

.ak

Must love hardship wrote: »

Neill Francis stuck the boot on also..

I’m still trying to figure out what sort of game Leinster are trying to play,” wrote the former Ireland international. “And it could be Christmas by the time it comes to me.” …. “I don’t know Joe Schmidt but some of the things he has tried to get his players to do thus far this season – well, he makes Walter Mitty look quite unimaginative.”



 “One suspects it is too late for Schmidt to get the team back on the rails,”- g hook

Gas. The two lads couldn't call a two horse race between them.

Dubinusa

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

But Kelleher has struggled in a few of the games he has played and therein lies the issue for a lot of people. Kelleher got selected despite the fact that he's a hooker who occasionally struggles at the lineout. Fair enough. The problem for a lot of people is that you then have other players who aren't getting opportunities yet don't seem to have the same glaring issues. Coombes is a prime example of this. He has arguably been the form back rower in the country yet he was released from the squad in favour of Conan. What harm was there in having a look at him against Italy? Casey is another. He was benched but not given the opportunity.

Farrell may have blooded some younger players but there are legitimate questions surrounding his selection policies. It's no surprise to me that Farrell is overly cautious when it comes to this area of coaching however as Schmidt was the same. In fact I think many would agree that it was Joe's biggest flaw.

Just to clarify, I'm not for one minute advocating that the coaching squad give into some fan's shiny new toy delusion but I would like to see them give players such as those mentioned above (and others) an opportunity, especially given that we are an ageing team and we are struggling.

I would say, there's always legitimate questions about who's selected. There are always going to be positions where 2 or 3 lads are in contention and there's nothing between them. Even at fullback, it's been a merry go round. Keenan has been the best selection, imo thus far. Larmour can't field high balls, Stockdale can't tackle reliably and after those lads it's probably Conway, Addison or Haley. Not much between them except Keenan has the least amount of glaring weakness, imo.

OneLungDavy

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would say, there's always legitimate questions about who's selected. There are always going to be positions where 2 or 3 lads are in contention and there's nothing between them. Even at fullback, it's been a merry go round. Keenan has been the best selection, imo thus far. Larmour can't field high balls, Stockdale can't tackle reliably and after those lads it's probably Conway, Addison or Haley. Not much between them except Keenan has the least amount of glaring weakness, imo.

With all our recent problems at fullback, it's funny how Haley was never brought up. I actually think he's a very dependable FB.

Garda Kenny

What’s all this talk of Harry Byrne. Has Ciaran Frawley done anything not to warrant the same kind of talk? Or has he not got the same kind of advertising campaign on social media that Harry has? I think it’s the latter.

Frawley has just as good if not better raw materials as Harry Byrne except he has all but been painted out of the picture. He has as good a pass and kicking game as Byrne. He has a better running game or break/step than Harry. He has a better vision and concentration than Harry and can read when to use a certain play depending on when the opposition presents a certain formation in defence.

All this talk is biased towards one player who is not particularly athletic as the former and it is unbalanced to give him such publicity over the former who has shown as much if not more at flyhalf than the latter.

aloooof

Garda Kenny wrote: »

What’s all this talk of Harry Byrne. Has Ciaran Frawley done anything not to warrant the same kind of talk? Or has he not got the same kind of advertising campaign on social media that Harry has? I think it’s the latter.

Frawley has just as good if not better raw materials as Harry Byrne except he has all but been painted out of the picture. He has as good a pass and kicking game as Byrne. He has a better running game or break/step than Harry. He has a better vision and concentration than Harry and can read when to use a certain play depending on when the opposition presents a certain formation in defence.

All this talk is biased towards one player who is not particularly athletic as the former and it is unbalanced to give him such publicity over the former who has shown as much if not more at flyhalf than the latter.

Frawley has played almost exclusively as a 12 this season. We're in more need of a new 10 an international level than a 12.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the advertising campaign / publicity type stuff, but any of that stuff will be absolutely inconsequential towards Andy Farrell's decision, tbh.