Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

bayern

Frawleys coaches have decided Byrne is the better 10 and Frawley the better 12.

Squidgy Black

Harry Byrne's clearly been pushing the mainstream media to force his agenda of getting more game time down our throats. Fake news!!!!!!

Garda Kenny

bayern wrote: »

Frawleys coaches have decided Byrne is the better 10 and Frawley the better 12.

As far as I’m concerned he was tried in the centre to cover the likes of Conor O Brien and Ringrose who were injured. That doesn’t mean any decision has definitively been made on what his best position is. For you to try and paint this as the case in coaches eyes shows huge bias from you. And by the way I mean by social media campaign guys like you on here pushing Harry’s case. It shows a lack of awareness and appears self entitled. In my view there are better players than Harry at fly half and Frawley is one of them.

aloooof

Garda Kenny wrote: »

As far as I’m concerned he was tried in the centre to cover the likes of Conor O Brien and Ringrose who were injured. That doesn’t mean any decision has definitively been made on what his best position is. For you to try and paint this as the case in coaches eyes shows huge bias from you. And by the way I mean by social media campaign guys like you on here pushing Harry’s case. It shows a lack of awareness and appears self entitled. In my view there are better players than Harry at fly half and Frawley is one of them.

Eh, so why doesn't it show a lack of awareness and appear self entitled when you're here pushing Frawley's case??

sydthebeat

Harry Byrne in a "better outhalf than Frawley" shocker.
You wont believe what he did next ......

Click here

irishbucsfan

You don’t have to drive into every pothole you see, it doesn’t matter how deep they are!

salmocab

Must love hardship wrote: »

Neill Francis stuck the boot on also..

I’m still trying to figure out what sort of game Leinster are trying to play,” wrote the former Ireland international. “And it could be Christmas by the time it comes to me.” …. “I don’t know Joe Schmidt but some of the things he has tried to get his players to do thus far this season – well, he makes Walter Mitty look quite unimaginative.”



 “One suspects it is too late for Schmidt to get the team back on the rails,”- g hook

I’d say there is no better way of knowing you are doing something right than having Neil Francis say your doing it wrong. He is absolutely clueless.

swiwi_

bilston wrote: »

Mad to think that that is over 7 years ago!

Inconceivable!

sydthebeat

swiwi_ wrote: »

Inconceivable!

two princess bride quotes in one day...

tip of the hat sir !!

swiwi_

sydthebeat wrote: »

two princess bride quotes in one day...

tip of the hat sir !!

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=275143970618326

"Hello. My name is Julian Montoya. Debut for Leicester. Score a try."

stephen_n

Must love hardship wrote: »

Was he ever positive about anyone?

Himself

Niallof9

Former Former Former wrote: »

Has there ever been a coach of the national team or a province who wasn't savaged by an angry minority of people in their early days? I honestly can't remember one.

Unfortunately for Farrell he has nothing like the success of Kidney or Schmidt as a head coach. He didn't have it coming into the job (as head coach) and its nearly a given he never will either. You're talking Heineken cups and ending in grand slams. and decades of rugby union coaching.

Its a doomed experiment that should have never happened. A marvelous assistant, a hype man, a blood and thunder defensive second that the players probably personally love (read what Warburton said about Edwards) yet that is probably lacking in nuance, rugby union experience and detail in the head coach role, which is now becoming apparent in how confused and inept we look and in what we are trying to do. The fires are burning, the thunder cracking, and the blood boiling, because of the core strengths of AF. But that's why he's probably destined to only ever be the second, just like a Roy Keane type.

Most people were willing to give Kidney and Joe loads of time, and they mostly backed it up. Farrell has been involved for a while now, with no head coach experience, and the team is enduring one of its worst ever periods in recent memory.

Of course you want to give him time. We could finish with the spoon and you'd be still saying it and referencing 2018 etc. wake up man.

The best thing that could happen to Irish rugby at this stage, is to lose to Italy or Scotland, or both.

It would trigger the changes and bravery that are needed to re-right the ship. and save irish rugby from itself. Cause at the moment, imo, its doomed, given its littered with self entitlement, self serving delusion and current situation. The extensions and contract stuff will only show it up more.

theVersatile

You do realise that, by default, Farrell is already as successful as Schmidt is, as a by product of being the assistant coach during that time? Farrell's probably more successful given his Lions exploits.

Niallof9

theVersatile wrote: »

You do realise that, by default, Farrell is already as successful as Schmidt is, as a by product of being the assistant coach during that time? Farrell's probably more successful given his Lions exploits.

ha, no, that is not the case unfortunately.

A questionable viewpoint too about the lions. Overhyped and questionable success there too given what it entailed. Australia, and a draw against a NZ there for the taking.

He was also part of a failed England and a disaster in Japan. If he shares joe's success he shares his failures as well. Lancasters also.

Only in Ireland could we think of the assistant as more important than the head coach role. Given it was a Schmidt setup the assistant probably (and anybody involved, or saw warm ups etc would tell you, i think Best also talked about it) had small inputs. Which explains why we are failing so badly now.

Look if he makes the changes that are needed, i will say fair play. If he manages to turn this around he absolutely deserves praise and time. If he picks the usual against Italy, he absolutely deserves criticism for his shortsightedness , as do the IRFU and NUcifora. And there will be far more learned people than Hook and Franno doing it. Its a given. The knives are being sharpened as we speak. Even by normally level headed people like D'arcy and Jackman and even ROG. It was much easier to dismiss a nobody like Andy Dunne, even though he correctly predicted and highlighted the numerous issues with Joe. For full on cranks and the others on boards its easy to chortle at it. Yet they keep getting it right time and time again. there's people who said AF would be a disaster and was absolutely the wrong choice and they're being proven correct.

Franno and Hook were being wum's for money. thats the difference. They probably didn't even believe the ****e they wrote.

Stan27

Farrell has a few hurdles than joe and kidney.
Those 2 had settled teams with main players in their prime, sexton, Murray, Kearney, earls, best, Healy for example.
With Farrell all those are not playing the best/ or gone.
Regarding 10, both Jackson and Joey who were invested in with game time, are not currently available so 10 is tricky for him. He can not just throw in a young 10 with a few pro14 caps.
He invested in Doris but he will be out now. Also missing leavy is a bit blow.

aloooof

I dunno Niall, it just seems hard to please you. It was the same earlier in the week where you claimed people were saying Keenan was the second coming, when the reality was their position was very close to your own; that he has been very solid and dependable.

You also claimed Aki, Farrell and McCloskey weren't getting a fair crack. Aki started all the 2020 6 Nations games. Farrell started 3 ANC games. Unless you want to start 5 centres, I don't know what more you want.

You were even bemoaning VdF as an automatic starter:

Is VDF really able to hold his hand up to be an automatic starter?

When in November, you were saying the exact same thing about Will Connors:

Like Will Connors was great against Italy. Against France he was grand. why does that secure him automatic selection ahead of any other viable option?

It just seems impossible to please you when you contradict yourself so often.

clsmooth

Niallof9 wrote: »

The best thing that could happen to Irish rugby at this stage, is to lose to Italy or Scotland, or both.

Nice to see that you gave Farrell a chance and didn’t come into it with preconceived ideas.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

I dunno Niall, it just seems hard to please you. It was the same earlier in the week where you claimed people were saying Keenan was the second coming, when the reality was their position was very close to your own; that he has been very solid and dependable.

You also claimed Aki, Farrell and McCloskey weren't getting a fair crack. Aki started all the 2020 6 Nations games. Farrell started 3 ANC games. Unless you want to start 5 centres, I don't know what more you want.

You were even bemoaning VdF as an automatic starter:



When in November, you were saying the exact same thing about Will Connors:



It just seems impossible to please you when you contradict yourself so often.

after a good start i've never rated VDF apart from a good engine. I don't rate Connors much either, great chopper aside.With the latter, I was arguing automatic squad selection, which he's turned out to be. VDF is now first choice. He's not good enough.

and Keenan is getting clear plaudits above and beyond reality. and as i said i was drawing the comparison with Larmour et al. and my opinion is there. we want the mundane over the extraordinary. fine, i don't but i've acknowledged its a game of fine margins etc.

Yeah they got starts as per usual due to injury to first choice. And as i said RH and GR are our first choice partner ship its not a debate. it was in terms of an overall pattern. Aki again he hasn't been tearing up trees if we are truly honest about it. I like Farrell. so give over on that stuff, please. as you say only so many guys can get chances, but as you would see my argument has always been broader, around contract etc. people have made arguments against all that, which i accept. thats my position. it could be argued we don't use our squad well nor our bench. and its looking likely we'll be heading into another world cup with lads hanging around like bad smells. if this comes to pass i will truly give up.

and man do you ever put your own opinion into anything, its always going back and nitpicking stuff over and over, not just me of other users as well. its beyond tiring.

i wouldn't mind but its always backed up by being mostly wrong, and supported by other users who have been mostly wrong.

Niallof9

clsmooth wrote: »

Nice to see that you gave Farrell a chance and didn’t come into it with preconceived ideas.

as i said, if he turns it around now fair play to him. if he mixes it up against Italy and manages a win against Scotland, credit where its due.

i said at the start it was the wrong appointment, and thus far its proving correct.

Chances, chances...what chance are people willing to give?

I know if i was a player and the team is doing ****e and say my lions window passes me by and my inexperienced head coach isn't really doing it, i'd be starting to wonder. this is the reality, sport is ruthless and 2018 was an age ago.

it seems, no matter what, people are willing to give Af an indefinite window. once the Six Nations is done, we need to truly evaluate where we are. If its 2 wins from 5 its been really really poor and he limps on. If its one from 5, its a six nations that should see the coach sacked.

Biggest indictment is that after 10/11 games there is no discernible game plan strategy that looks like it has a chance of being effective on the pitch.

Then again Farrell has never had to do this before - has no track record of it.

The only recent bright spot (even though only 1 game) was the improvement in the set piece against France. But that was only because it was terrible beforehand.

With Nucifora being very aggro and embattled in any interactions with the media not a great look overall from the IRFU.

clsmooth

I think we’re being quite shortsighted here focussing on our management team. Wales aren’t exactly looking great with Pivac at the helm despite getting away with 2 wins in this 6N. They’ve looked very ordinary but have managed to uncover a gem in Rees-Zammit who probably wouldn’t have started if it wasn’t for Adams and his COVID breach.

There’s a lot of criticism in England for Jones and their style of play and why he’s persisting with the likes of Youngs and refusing to blood younger players who are putting their hands up with their performances in the Premiership. A few pundits also looking for them to drop Owen Farrell.

Scotland are as always 2 steps forward and 1 back. Great win over England followed by throwing away the game against Wales. Townsend just about managed to keep his job despite the World Cup. Can he bring any consistency to them? Looks debatable.

France are the only team who seem to have got it together but they weren’t exactly impressive against a severely weakened Irish team and have come from a relatively low base (for them). History suggests that they were always going to improve at some stage. Having arguably the best 9 in the world also helps.

Back to Farrell. Have I been pleased with performances under him? Not particularly. But you have to factor in his bad luck with injuries and no ready successor to Sexton. He’s addressed our AI set piece issues by getting POC in. He deserves credit for that, not for it to be used as a stick to beat him. He’s blooded Kelleher, Doris, Keenan and a few others. Next step is to phase out Healy, POM, Sexton and Earls. We’re light in two of those positions which would be an issue no matter who the coach is.

Our back row is probably the weakest it’s been in 10-15 years. Who’s the next Humphreys/ROG/Sexton? Who are the leaders in the current playing group like Wood, POC, ROG, BOD and Best? How many of our players would get into a current world 15? We’re in a period of transition and probably 3/4th is where we should be in the 6 nations table. The Welsh loss really put the pressure on Farrell. I don’t think he can be blamed for POM’s moment of madness.

Do you think it may be quite a difficult time to be a head coach working in bubbles with players who are away from their families? I’ve no doubt that on a forums in Wales, Scotland and England there’s similar calls for a new head coach.

Niallof9

clsmooth wrote: »

I think we’re being quite shortsighted here focussing on our management team. Wales aren’t exactly looking great with Pivac at the helm despite getting away with 2 wins in this 6N. They’ve looked very ordinary but have managed to uncover a gem in Rees-Zammit who probably wouldn’t have started if it wasn’t for Adams and his COVID breach.

There’s a lot of criticism in England for Jones and their style of play and why he’s persisting with the likes of Youngs and refusing to blood younger players who are putting their hands up with their performances in the Premiership. A few pundits also looking for them to drop Owen Farrell.

Scotland are as always 2 steps forward and 1 back. Great win over England followed by throwing away the game against Wales. Townsend just about managed to keep his job despite the World Cup. Can he bring any consistency to them? Looks debatable.

France are the only team who seem to have got it together but they weren’t exactly impressive against a severely weakened Irish team and have come from a relatively low base (for them). History suggests that they were always going to improve at some stage. Having arguably the best 9 in the world also helps.

Back to Farrell. Have I been pleased with performances under him? Not particularly. But you have to factor in his bad luck with injuries and no ready successor to Sexton. He’s addressed our AI set piece issues by getting POC in. He deserves credit for that, not for it to be used as a stick to beat him. He’s blooded Kelleher, Doris, Keenan and a few others. Next step is to phase out Healy, POM, Sexton and Earls. We’re light in two of those positions which would be an issue no matter who the coach is.

Our back row is probably the weakest it’s been in 10-15 years. Who’s the next Humphreys/ROG/Sexton? Who are the leaders in the current playing group like Wood, POC, ROG, BOD and Best? How many of our players would get into a current world 15? We’re in a period of transition and probably 3/4th is where we should be in the 6 nations table. The Welsh loss really put the pressure on Farrell. I don’t think he can be blamed for POM’s moment of madness.

Do you think it may be quite a difficult time to be a head coach working in bubbles with players who are away from their families? I’ve no doubt that on a forums in Wales, Scotland and England there’s similar calls for a new head coach.

this is just self defeating stuff really. a complete capitulation of irish rugby if this were the case. and if it was, its an indictment on the IRFU and the provinces and wasting all those "golden generation" times. which they weren't, thinking they were is a golden age type of thinking, and untrue. you have people saying Leinster is a machine, a factory. which is it? we have some World class players and talents which are being completely hamstrung by a conservative system and a coach who doesn't seem to know what he wants to do. Wood would most likely not make it now as his basics were crap (which i hate but thats what Irish rugby has become imo). Ryan has already become a sort of POC, Humphreys was flaky and just an old version of Mads, JJ etc, ROG was already replaced. Doris looks like the new Heaslip.

also you can't compare Irish rugby to the other three; England have done really well under JOnes (but he's been there a while now), Pivac is brand new (unlike Farrell, but also with head coach experience) and Scotland are also rans but now improving and they can;t do better than Townsend. AND people's issue was that AF was appointed despite his lack of experience. And thus far its not working out. Yeah he's had bad luck but people were skeptical from the start. In some decisions yes he's been bold, then completely fluffed it with another bizarre decision or selection. Also the rebuilding narrative is a load of codswollop. Its increasingly likely our captain and first choice player in a key position, in a World Cup, will again be 38 years old. madness. rebuilding my arse. One of the oldest squads in World Rugby. For every Doris, there's an earls or POM hanging on for dear life despite repeated poor performances.

your viewpoint is depressing to me and part of the reason we'd need to act quickly if Ireland lose to Scotland. and why a loss in the long run will do us the power of good. i thought it would be Japan, but no.

whataboutery won't help Ireland. We can be smug as hell when we want, trumpeting our "world class" system when we want etc, but then we retreat into excuses. No wonder some other nations can't stand our bluster. team of us,more like steam of piss.

its_phil

Niallof9 wrote: »

this is just self defeating stuff really. a complete capitulation of irish rugby if this were the case. and if it was, its an indictment on the IRFU and the provinces and wasting all those "golden generation" times. which they weren't, thinking they were is a golden age type of thinking, and untrue. you have people saying Leinster is a machine, a factory. which is it? we have some World class players and talents which are being completely hamstrung by a conservative system and a coach who doesn't seem to know what he wants to do. Wood would most likely not make it now as his basics were crap (which i hate but thats what Irish rugby has become imo). Ryan has already become a sort of POC, Humphreys was flaky and just an old version of Mads, JJ etc, ROG was already replaced. Doris looks like the new Heaslip.

also you can't compare Irish rugby to the other three; England have done really well under JOnes (but he's been there a while now), Pivac is brand new (unlike Farrell, but also with head coach experience) and Scotland are also rans but now improving and they can;t do better than Townsend. AND people's issue was that AF was appointed despite his lack of experience. And thus far its not working out. Yeah he's had bad luck but people were skeptical from the start. In some decisions yes he's been bold, then completely fluffed it with another bizarre decision or selection. Also the rebuilding narrative is a load of codswollop. Its increasingly likely our captain and first choice player in a key position, in a World Cup, will again be 38 years old. madness. rebuilding my arse. One of the oldest squads in World Rugby. For every Doris, there's an earls or POM hanging on for dear life despite repeated poor performances.

your viewpoint is depressing to me and part of the reason we'd need to act quickly if Ireland lose to Scotland. and why a loss in the long run will do us the power of good. i thought it would be Japan, but no.

whataboutery won't help Ireland. We can be smug as hell when we want, trumpeting our "world class" system when we want etc, but then we retreat into excuses. No wonder some other nations can't stand our bluster. team of us,more like steam of piss.

Please don’t compare Ian Madigan to David Humphreys. Madigan couldn’t touch Humphreys for quality delivered over a career.

thomond2006

It's worth noting that Ireland started the 2020 Six Nations with Doris starting and POM on the bench. Earls too was not a starter.

TRC10

thomond2006 wrote: »

It's worth noting that Ireland started the 2020 Six Nations with Doris starting and POM on the bench. Earls too was not a starter.

To be fair POM and Earls were both I'm good form pre 2021 and if we're picking a team purely for the here and now, deserved to be in there for the Wales game.

thomond2006

TRC10 wrote: »

To be fair POM and Earls were both I'm good form pre 2021 and if we're picking a team purely for the here and now, deserved to be in there for the Wales game.

Yes. My point is that it's not as if either were in the team no matter what.

molloyjh

Are people still trying to introduce reason and fact into these "discussions"?

Yeah_Right

Niallof9 wrote: »

this is just self defeating stuff really. a complete capitulation of irish rugby if this were the case. and if it was, its an indictment on the IRFU and the provinces and wasting all those "golden generation" times. which they weren't, thinking they were is a golden age type of thinking, and untrue. you have people saying Leinster is a machine, a factory. which is it? we have some World class players and talents which are being completely hamstrung by a conservative system and a coach who doesn't seem to know what he wants to do. Wood would most likely not make it now as his basics were crap (which i hate but thats what Irish rugby has become imo). Ryan has already become a sort of POC, Humphreys was flaky and just an old version of Mads, JJ etc, ROG was already replaced. Doris looks like the new Heaslip.

also you can't compare Irish rugby to the other three; England have done really well under JOnes (but he's been there a while now), Pivac is brand new (unlike Farrell, but also with head coach experience) and Scotland are also rans but now improving and they can;t do better than Townsend. AND people's issue was that AF was appointed despite his lack of experience. And thus far its not working out. Yeah he's had bad luck but people were skeptical from the start. In some decisions yes he's been bold, then completely fluffed it with another bizarre decision or selection. Also the rebuilding narrative is a load of codswollop. Its increasingly likely our captain and first choice player in a key position, in a World Cup, will again be 38 years old. madness. rebuilding my arse. One of the oldest squads in World Rugby. For every Doris, there's an earls or POM hanging on for dear life despite repeated poor performances.

your viewpoint is depressing to me and part of the reason we'd need to act quickly if Ireland lose to Scotland. and why a loss in the long run will do us the power of good. i thought it would be Japan, but no.

whataboutery won't help Ireland. We can be smug as hell when we want, trumpeting our "world class" system when we want etc, but then we retreat into excuses. No wonder some other nations can't stand our bluster. team of us,more like steam of piss.

So who should replace Farrell? We've had to read your long, vitriolic rants about useless Farrell is and how stupid we all are for ages now. It's time to put up or shut up, who should replace Farrell?

TRC10

Yeah_Right wrote: »

So who should replace Farrell? We've had to read your long, vitriolic rants about useless Farrell is and how stupid we all are for ages now. It's time to put up or shut up, who should replace Farrell?

Personally, Pat Lam is the best choice without question. But I read somewhere that he's on 800k at Bristol and I highly doubt the union could afford that. I'm not saying we should fire Farrell btw.

.ak

Lam has a history of taking a while to bed into a team. And that's with a club he'd be working with 40 odd hours a week with...