Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Rigor Mortis

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Lads, just passed the local church...ye're making the baby jesus cry! ...he was wearing a Jack Carty shirt though..

That Jesus lad, does he qualify under residency rules. Or did the red light have to be on the alter for five continuous years.

Niallof9

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/keith-earls-believed-to-have-agreed-new-one-year-deal-to-remain-at-munster-1.4487853

has there been any talk of this on here?

Just looks like it will roll over into 23 and we'll be in the exact same position with alot of lads on central deals, way past their sell by date. depressing

also why is Nucifora based in Australia at this crucial stage of tournaments and negotiations?

I think the above just sums up where we are heading. Lazy renewals, planning and a DOR not on the scene.

A defeat to Italy or Scotland will be the best thing to happen to Irish Rugby. Lens 1999, twickenham 2000 and Japan rolled into one.

Not only should FArrell, Catt and Easterbuy be shown the door, it seems Nucifora isn't doing much and should probably at this stage be disposed of.

AS much as the old IRFU were shambolic at times, give me a ruthless Wigglesworth any day. Alot of this set up needs culling and the white hot heat of an old world IRFU committee room.

VANG1

Give Joe a call

Interested Observer

VANG1 wrote: »

Give Joe a call

I know I'm outraged anyway.

phog

I don't see too much change for the Italy game and I can see why Farrell wouldn't be in a rush to make too many changes either.

We're in the middle of one of (if not) the best rugby tournaments in World Rugby and in an unprecedented year where we need a win.

Niallof9

phog wrote: »

I don't see too much change for the Italy game and I can see why Farrell wouldn't be in a rush to make too many changes either.

We're in the middle of one of (if not) the best rugby tournaments in World Rugby and in an unprecedented year where we need a win.

yeah i mean Italy are a massive threat alright. We should have real fear of their capabilities.

lad's what are we doing here.

The Farrell era is limping to an end.

for the greater good, i actually hope Italy pull off a massive shock. And i mean going by some of ye on here and Af himself, Italy have a good chance, despite their inexperienced half back pairing. Irish rugby needs a massive wake up call. Fearing Italy and putting short term gains over the health of Irish rugby is sad.

They won't of course, we could play our thirds and we'd still win at a canter.

Niallof9

VANG1 wrote: »

Give Joe a call

hilarious.

sydthebeat

it was heartwarming to see Joey back out in prematch warm ups with Munster on saturday night.

hopefully his return isnt too far away

crossman47

I agree with every word of this https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irish-rugby-is-the-latest-example-of-how-new-isn-t-always-better-1.4490909

OneLungDavy

phog wrote: »

I don't see too much change for the Italy game and I can see why Farrell wouldn't be in a rush to make too many changes either.

We're in the middle of one of (if not) the best rugby tournaments in World Rugby and in an unprecedented year where we need a win.

Every year the same conversation comes up about experimenting for the Italy game, I can't remember any recent Ireland coach doing it.

Scratchly

Niallof9 wrote: »

yeah i mean Italy are a massive threat alright. We should have real fear of their capabilities.

lad's what are we doing here.

The Farrell era is limping to an end.

for the greater good, i actually hope Italy pull off a massive shock. And i mean going by some of ye on here and Af himself, Italy have a good chance, despite their inexperienced half back pairing. Irish rugby needs a massive wake up call. Fearing Italy and putting short term gains over the health of Irish rugby is sad.

They won't of course, we could play our thirds and we'd still win at a canter.

Ireland will beat Italy. But then they have to beat Scotland and England to salvage the tournament. And it would be madness to go fiddling with selections for those.

Whatever team that will play Scotland should start against Italy. There's some issues that need fixing by they're not far off and the more they play together they better they're likely to be.

There's no benefit in throwing in players against Italy who won't feature in the rest of the tournament when the team clearly need to improve.

realhorrorshow

crossman47 wrote: »

I agree with every word of this https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irish-rugby-is-the-latest-example-of-how-new-isn-t-always-better-1.4490909

The way the Irish rugby public (mainly the media) piled on Joe after his departure was disgusting. The man single handedly transformed Irish rugby through his work at Leinster and Ireland and the glee with which people put the boot in after a terrible 2019 was so disheartening. It was mainly coming from journos tbf but plenty of players had a dig as well. It's very nice that they're having fun in training and all but performances are all that matters at the end of the day. In 2019 it felt like we were a good team but very out of form, now we are just plain average (Imo of course).

Niallof9

OneLungDavy wrote: »

Every year the same conversation comes up about experimenting for the Italy game, I can't remember any recent Ireland coach doing it.

you must have missed a few matches so.

Niallof9

Scratchly wrote: »

Ireland will beat Italy. But then they have to beat Scotland and England to salvage the tournament. And it would be madness to go fiddling with selections for those.

Whatever team that will play Scotland should start against Italy. There's some issues that need fixing by they're not far off and the more they play together they better they're likely to be.

There's no benefit in throwing in players against Italy who won't feature in the rest of the tournament when the team clearly need to improve.

no it shouldn't. this is short term-ism of the highest order. madness. And losing to Scotland means Farrell is probably a dead man walking. Not having CM and JS against Italy won't affect that match. It didn't matter in the WC warmups, or Samoa, or last Italy game. its a ****ing joke. also lose to Scotland, The England game will pale into insignificance.

Italy are utterly ****e man, they are fielding two kids themselves.

we're making the exact same mistakes over and over and over. Talking of finishing positions, world cup rankings, bemoaning squad depth, contracts at key periods during actual tournaments, and on and on. ffs it would just make you want to give up following Ireland.

Carbery return is the only thing to hang on for.

Bear in mind i'm arguing you keep JGP and RB. Playing Murray and Sexton sends such a bad message and will mean nothing for the Scotland match. 100 per cent, if thats the team and we don't see Casey or Baird for even 30 mins people more learned than me, will be gunning for Farrell.

crossman47

Niallof9 wrote: »

no it shouldn't. this is short term-ism of the highest order. madness. And losing to Scotland means Farrell is probably a dead man walking. Not having CM and JS against Italy won't affect that match. It didn't matter in the WC warmups, or Samoa, or last Italy game. its a ****ing joke. also lose to Scotland, The England game will pale into insignificance.

Italy are utterly ****e man, they are fielding two kids themselves.

we're making the exact same mistakes over and over and over. Talking of finishing positions, world cup rankings, bemoaning squad depth, contracts at key periods during actual tournaments, and on and on. ffs it would just make you want to give up following Ireland.

Carbery return is the only thing to hang on for.

Bear in mind i'm arguing you keep JGP and RB. Playing Murray and Sexton sends such a bad message and will mean nothing for the Scotland match.

If you think keeping Ross Byrne is the answer to anything, you are asking the wrong question. He is not and never will be an international out half.

tgdaly

Italy, in 2-3 years, may have a half decent team. If they do (big if), it's more than likely that they'll be able to trace it back to this season, where they decided to make short term sacrifices by throwing in young lads who's talent they believe in and give them time to grow. It may not work, but they realise that playing the same old players isn't working at the moment, so what is there to lose?

France were pretty poor themselves up until the last year or 2, and they have also turned things around by giving young talent a chance to develop at the highest level.


There needs to be a watershed moment where we realise that it's ok to lose a couple of games over 2-3 year period if it's means 5-10 years of relative stability. I mean we are losing more games than we are winning at the moment anyways so surely this is the time to go with some youth? Even if you don't like the idea of throwing in young players, change is good, so even giving the likes of Carty and Cooney another decent go would be better than the tried and trusted.

In all fairness, Italy (at this exact moment in time) are prett awful. They haven't won a meaningful game in 5 years and even this season their clubs only have 3 wins between them in the league (2 of which were Zebre beating Benetton). If our aim is just to get a nice safe win against them I think that's a pretty bad sign of the times.

Niallof9

crossman47 wrote: »

If you think keeping Ross Byrne is the answer to anything, you are asking the wrong question. He is not and never will be an international out half.

I agree. But seeing he didn't have the balls to try anything else you should at least give RB or Burns a shot at redemption.

Niallof9

tgdaly wrote: »

Italy, in 2-3 years, may have a half decent team. If they do (big if), it's more than likely that they'll be able to trace it back to this season, where they decided to make short term sacrifices by throwing in young lads who's talent they believe in and give them time to grow. It may not work, but they realise that playing the same old players isn't working at the moment, so what is there to lose?

France were pretty poor themselves up until the last year or 2, and they have also turned things around by giving young talent a chance to develop at the highest level.


There needs to be a watershed moment where we realise that it's ok to lose a couple of games over 2-3 year period if it's means 5-10 years of relative stability. I mean we are losing more games than we are winning at the moment anyways so surely this is the time to go with some youth? Even if you don't like the idea of throwing in young players, change is good, so even giving the likes of Carty and Cooney another decent go would be better than the tried and trusted.

In all fairness, Italy (at this exact moment in time) are prett awful. They haven't won a meaningful game in 5 years and even this season their clubs only have 3 wins between them in the league (2 of which were Zebre beating Benetton). If our aim is just to get a nice safe win against them I think that's a pretty bad sign of the times.

exactly this. and if we lose in the future to an Italy team forged in these bashful fires, people will scratch their heads. when the answer is quite obvious.

The signs all point to us again, being captained in the WC by a 38 year old. and the backbone of the squad will be lads far best their best. Its utterly insane.

ironically the best chance for AF to save his skin is by being bold. play it safe, the fans and media will turn on him and then he'll be gone. no amount of boards deniers will save him. the irfu won't remember the 1 million he got for finishing 4th. in fact some of it will end up in Andy's back pocket.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

I agree. But seeing he didn't have the balls to try anything else you should at least give RB or Burns a shot at redemption.

If you think RB isnt international quality then why bother playing him. Either give Burns a chance or keep sexton.

Dropping Sexton because he is old, to play Byrne makes no sense. Play sexton this year and hopefully Harry Byrne or Ben Healy make the step up.

Niallof9

irelandrover wrote: »

If you think RB isnt international quality then why bother playing him. Either give Burns a chance or keep sexton.

Dropping Sexton because he is old, to play Byrne makes no sense. Play sexton this year and hopefully Harry Byrne or Ben Healy make the step up.

whats the point in playing Sexton this year though? it makes as little sense as the former.

I said way back it should be JGP and Burns. I rate neither but these are the guys the coach went with. Murray has been consistently rewarded for piss poor performances. In my book there should be a price to paid. instead he sits safe with his 600k plus contract while our in form scrum half for two years slinks off to France.

I'm a Sexton fan. I played JCT, SCT, club with the lad. When he finishes i'll finally know i'm an old fart myself. He's the greatest ever outhalf Ireland have produced. That's not my point. If i knew Sexton could play on till 45 i'd say go for it. But its rugby his rugby life is coming to an end. and playing the two lads against Italy sends out all the wrong messages, to the squad itself, to the fans, a 2 fingers to it all. all based on some mythical cohesion for Scotland. Didn't matter a jot last time against Italy, didn't matter against NZ having done the same with Samoa. we had the same argument even against lowly Russia. its a total joke at this stage. i can't believe people are still peddling it. its up there with "hidden moves"

And yes Carbery and Jackson situations need to be part of the discussion.

Anybody see how ripped Joey looked? will be great to see him back. if he gets back playing, it all becomes moot. i think he could be another Barrett. just needs luck.

irelandrover

tgdaly wrote: »

Italy, in 2-3 years, may have a half decent team. If they do (big if), it's more than likely that they'll be able to trace it back to this season, where they decided to make short term sacrifices by throwing in young lads who's talent they believe in and give them time to grow. It may not work, but they realise that playing the same old players isn't working at the moment, so what is there to lose?

France were pretty poor themselves up until the last year or 2, and they have also turned things around by giving young talent a chance to develop at the highest level.


There needs to be a watershed moment where we realise that it's ok to lose a couple of games over 2-3 year period if it's means 5-10 years of relative stability. I mean we are losing more games than we are winning at the moment anyways so surely this is the time to go with some youth? Even if you don't like the idea of throwing in young players, change is good, so even giving the likes of Carty and Cooney another decent go would be better than the tried and trusted.

In all fairness, Italy (at this exact moment in time) are prett awful. They haven't won a meaningful game in 5 years and even this season their clubs only have 3 wins between them in the league (2 of which were Zebre beating Benetton). If our aim is just to get a nice safe win against them I think that's a pretty bad sign of the times.

Italy were coming last this year. Whether they played the 19 year olds, the 12 year olds or the seasoned professional. Its hardly a risk for them to play the younger players.

2 years is a huge time in international rugby. South Africa lost to Italy in November. A year later they won the world cup. England were awful in 2018 but made the final in 2019.

Ireland are building their squad nicely at this point. Its not the revolution that some people want but there is depth in almost every position. 4 different players have got starts at 10 in the last 12 month. 3 have starts at 9. those are the positions that we struggle with the most along with hooker.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

whats the point in playing Sexton this year though? it makes as little sense as the former.

Because Sexton gives you a better chance of winning this year. If you play Ross Byrne then you are reducing your chances of winning but also not building for the future.

Italy haven't won a game in 6 years in the six nations actually.

The chances of beating New Zealand or France in a world cup quarter in 2023.....

maybe the IRFU have taken the view that it's better to try to challenge for third place in the 6 Nations over the next few years and skip this world cup cycle?

Niallof9

irelandrover wrote: »

Because Sexton gives you a better chance of winning this year. If you play Ross Byrne then you are reducing your chances of winning but also not building for the future.

newsflash son, we aren't winning it this year.

anyway i'll be laying a bet on Italy. If Ireland go with the full side i think Italy will smell blood and the Irish squad itself will start to get agitated. With The bagholders and dirt trackers not getting any sniff, Andy will lose a few ears imo. Throw in lads getting golden deals despite playing like bags of cement, i could see morale dropping.

I'm fully confident either way, Scotland will beat Ireland. And it will be the best thing to happen Irish rugby since Gatland tore it all up.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

newsflash son, we aren't winning it this year.

I didnt say winning it. I said winning. If you are going to be condescending at least make sure you read the statement properly first.

We have a better chance of beating Scotland with Sexton playing rather than Byrne.

Niallof9

irelandrover wrote: »

I didnt say winning it. I said winning. If you are going to be condescending at least make sure you read the statement properly first.

We have a better chance of beating Scotland with Sexton playing rather than Byrne.

winning against Italy? jesus are things that bad?

sorry i wasn't being condescending i just meant son in the generic way.

I disagree with your assessment. And Farrell lost me in November anyhow. Its at that point he and the IRFU ****ed up. Harry Byrne could have played against Georgia. Coombes this year. So many issues. its not as easy as pointing to Ross or Jono or whomever.

tgdaly

irelandrover wrote: »

Italy were coming last this year. Whether they played the 19 year olds, the 12 year olds or the seasoned professional. Its hardly a risk for them to play the younger players.

2 years is a huge time in international rugby. South Africa lost to Italy in November. A year later they won the world cup. England were awful in 2018 but made the final in 2019.

Ireland are building their squad nicely at this point. Its not the revolution that some people want but there is depth in almost every position. 4 different players have got starts at 10 in the last 12 month. 3 have starts at 9. those are the positions that we struggle with the most along with hooker.

Fair point about Italy, chances are they would have come last. But they are still doing it, and like I say France did it for a year or 2 to come 4th or 5th and have now turned things around. Fair enough opportunities are limited to bed in new players in a 6n, but an Italy game should definitely be seen as an opportunity on their current form.

4 players may have played 10, and 3 at 9, but I don't necessarily think there's depth just because a large number have played the position, you have to look at quality as well.

irelandrover

Niallof9 wrote: »

winning against Italy? jesus are things that bad?

sorry i wasn't being condescending i just meant son in the generic way.

I disagree with your assessment. And Farrell lost me in November anyhow. Its at that point he and the IRFU ****ed up. Harry Byrne could have played against Georgia. Coombes this year. So many issues. its not as easy as pointing to Ross or Jono or whomever.

We could start Sexton, Carty, Byrne or Burns against Italy and win.

Personally I'd start Burns as i dont think Byrne brings you anything and its not future planning. Carty clearly isnt rated by the management. We already know what starting Sexton brings.

I dont see any point in dropping Sexton for Ross Byrne as he just isnt up to international standard. He plays a different game to Sexton and isnt the direction we want to play.

theVersatile

Niallof9 wrote: »

winning against Italy? jesus are things that bad?

sorry i wasn't being condescending i just meant son in the generic way.

I disagree with your assessment. And Farrell lost me in November anyhow. Its at that point he and the IRFU ****ed up. Harry Byrne could have played against Georgia. Coombes this year. So many issues. its not as easy as pointing to Ross or Jono or whomever.

Ah here lad, he didn't even mention Italy in that post. Its quite clear that "winning" means "winning our last three games" - nothing to do with "getting a big win v Italy to get back on the road yeeehawww COYBIG Andy is God".

Atkeast you've made it clear that you had your mind made up about Farrell prior to the tournament.

Niallof9

theVersatile wrote: »

Ah here lad, he didn't even mention Italy in that post. Its quite clear that "winning" means "winning our last three games" - nothing to do with "getting a big win v Italy to get back on the road yeeehawww COYBIG Andy is God".

Atkeast you've made it clear that you had your mind made up about Farrell prior to the tournament.

i've stated that already. Farrell is clearly the wrong man to lead Ireland. i'm fairly confident it won't work out.this selection is just adding hard evidence.

unfortunately for many getting it back on the road will be exactly how its presented. magical cohesion for scotland and then the argument repeats ad nauseum until 2023 when people are again scratching their heads. what happened they will say..and it will be very easy to pinpoint looking at our 38 year old captain and 33 year old under performing scrum half.. at some stage AF will just have to pull the trigger and grow a pair of balls. if he doesn't do it soon, any goodwill will evaporate and he'll be out the door or oversee another WC failure.

anyway i've given up trying to convince many on here. live in ignorance, if it makes you happy.

we have a DOR overseeing undeserved golden cuffed contract extensions from Australia in the middle of a tournament, and an English head coach with most of his winning experience in another code, and with zero head coach experience and no trophies, unlike his two predecessors on top of a complete flop in two World Cups. Nothing to see here. Team of us and all that.

Using my crystal ball i can see him playing the fear card on and on, always chasing the short term, giving some lads minutes while completely ostracizing others. Squad will get unhappy, dirt trackers won't get any minutes, "star" players will fade won't make any lions squad, will also be unhappy. Media will completely tear him to shreds given he has zero background in Irish rugby unlike the three last head coaches. we'll have limped on, playing crap rugby having wasted the guts of three years. hence why i'd like him to be shown the door now. start anew. I think this could be the year Scotland do us a big favor.

anyway lets look forward to the match. after the Scotland match we can see where we are. If we perform against England after beating Scotland, i will hold my hands up. If it goes the opposite way, i hope others will as well.