Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

molloyjh

tgdaly wrote: »

Fair point about Italy, chances are they would have come last. But they are still doing it, and like I say France did it for a year or 2 to come 4th or 5th and have now turned things around. Fair enough opportunities are limited to bed in new players in a 6n, but an Italy game should definitely be seen as an opportunity on their current form.

4 players may have played 10, and 3 at 9, but I don't necessarily think there's depth just because a large number have played the position, you have to look at quality as well.

Italy might develop. But we've been saying that for years now. So let's just hold our horses on whether their selection policy is actually working or not. We have seen zero evidence of it so far and pure speculation proves the sum total of nothing at all.

France haven't had problems bringing in young guys for years. They've been playing selection lottery for years. So there's very much a case to be made of broken clocks. They've also had massive issues at 9 & 10 for ages so finally actually having decent ones getting consistent game time is automatically going to make them better.

The idea that youth = success is incredibly, incredibly simplistic. There are so many variables involved in any 1 game, let alone squad selection and development, that boiling it down to any one, much less one as arbitrary as age, makes little sense.

And using France, a side that has been massively underperforming for a decade and should by every metric be a better team than us, and Italy, the whipping boys of the competition, as measures of how we should do things is very flawed. France took on a weakened Ireland team and won by 2 points. I'd be pretty confident that if Sexton were playing and Doris been available we'd have won that game. So even now, with their young lads, they still have a bit to prove. Italy haven't won a game in years.

Let's take another example of a side that brought in a good deal of youth. Stuart Lancasters England. And where did it get them? No 6Ns titles and booted out of their own RWC at the pool stages. They won nothing in 4 years and failed far worse than ourselves at the RWC. So let's maybe take a wider, more realistic view of squad selection and development beyond simply "young is gooder".

Former Former Former

irelandrover wrote: »

Because Sexton gives you a better chance of winning this year. If you play Ross Byrne then you are reducing your chances of winning but also not building for the future.

You can substitute Billy Burns or Jack Carty for Ross Byrne and the above is no less true.

irelandrover

Former Former Former wrote: »

You can substitute Billy Burns or Jack Carty for Ross Byrne and the above is no less true.

I agree, but i think Burns plays the system that Farrell wants to play better. I do not know why Carty has been ostracized.

My main argument was if you dont see Byrne as the future and he doesnt improve the now then there really isnt a point of dropping sexton to play him.

irishbucsfan

The reality is we should be picking young players when they're good enough to help us win. I actually think Casey could be there, possibly Baird. Those are the sort of selections we should be investigating. I'd have Carty/Blade as I've said, I think they've been consistently the best in both their positions all year.

Guys who aren't good enough yet will get opportunities to do that at provincial level. And the good news is we probably have the best standard of coaching across the provinces we've ever had. I think the only player who is looking exceptional to me and is unlucky not to be involved is probably Coombes, but the good news is he has a chance to prove that point at his own province.

There will be tours where guys at that level WILL get a look. Normally that would be this summer during a Lions tour, so not sure what will happen with that now.

Speaking of crystal balls, I'm sure it won't take much to guess who was critical of Schmidt before the last Ireland tour during a Lions series (Japan/USA), you know the one where James Ryan was capped before playing for his province.

CowboyTed

irelandrover wrote: »

I agree, but i think Burns plays the system that Farrell wants to play better. I do not know why Carty has been ostracized.

My main argument was if you dont see Byrne as the future and he doesnt improve the now then there really isnt a point of dropping sexton to play him.

Carty seems the best option by a long way...

Only reason Farrell could use is that Carty likes to run the ball more than Sexton and also favours a higher tempo play... By the way so does Harry...

A high tempo passing and running game doesn't seem to be a part the Ireland plan.

OR
He just doesn't rate any playing in Connacht because they play in Connacht... In 18 months he hasn't promoted a new Connacht Player to International team...
So Connacht really should apologise for existing and thus having Andy Farrell having to acknowledge their existence when he could be looking at Leinster's third string players...

Former Former Former

CowboyTed wrote: »

Carty seems the best option by a long way...

Only reason Farrell could use is that Carty likes to run the ball more than Sexton and also favours a higher tempo play... By the way so does Harry...

A high tempo passing and running game doesn't seem to be a part the Ireland plan.

OR
He just doesn't rate any playing in Connacht because they play in Connacht... In 18 months he hasn't promoted a new Connacht Player to International team...
So Connacht really should apologise for existing and thus having Andy Farrell having to acknowledge their existence when he could be looking at Leinster's third string players...

Nailed it. Jesus that's embarassing.

What new Connacht player has deserved 'promotion' in that period?

tgdaly

molloyjh wrote: »

Italy might develop. But we've been saying that for years now. So let's just hold our horses on whether their selection policy is actually working or not. We have seen zero evidence of it so far and pure speculation proves the sum total of nothing at all.

France haven't had problems bringing in young guys for years. They've been playing selection lottery for years. So there's very much a case to be made of broken clocks. They've also had massive issues at 9 & 10 for ages so finally actually having decent ones getting consistent game time is automatically going to make them better.

The idea that youth = success is incredibly, incredibly simplistic. There are so many variables involved in any 1 game, let alone squad selection and development, that boiling it down to any one, much less one as arbitrary as age, makes little sense.

And using France, a side that has been massively underperforming for a decade and should by every metric be a better team than us, and Italy, the whipping boys of the competition, as measures of how we should do things is very flawed. France took on a weakened Ireland team and won by 2 points. I'd be pretty confident that if Sexton were playing and Doris been available we'd have won that game. So even now, with their young lads, they still have a bit to prove. Italy haven't won a game in years.

Let's take another example of a side that brought in a good deal of youth. Stuart Lancasters England. And where did it get them? No 6Ns titles and booted out of their own RWC at the pool stages. They won nothing in 4 years and failed far worse than ourselves at the RWC. So let's maybe take a wider, more realistic view of squad selection and development beyond simply "young is gooder".

I don't think anyone said youth = success in fairness (I certainly wasn't saying that anyways). But the definition of madness is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I don't think we should throw out the under 20s against Italy, but there's certainly scope for us to be introducing more young players than we currently are.

sydthebeat

CowboyTed wrote: »

Carty seems the best option by a long way...

Only reason Farrell could use is that Carty likes to run the ball more than Sexton and also favours a higher tempo play... By the way so does Harry...

A high tempo passing and running game doesn't seem to be a part the Ireland plan.

OR
He just doesn't rate any playing in Connacht because they play in Connacht... In 18 months he hasn't promoted a new Connacht Player to International team...
So Connacht really should apologise for existing and thus having Andy Farrell having to acknowledge their existence when he could be looking at Leinster's third string players...

Persecutory delusion is strong in this post....

OneLungDavy

It baffles me how anyone could think Ross Byrne is a better player than Carty, then again I'm not a professional coach.

AbusesToilets

Former Former Former wrote: »

Nailed it. Jesus that's embarassing.

What new Connacht player has deserved 'promotion' in that period?

Don't know about new exactly, but you could make a case for Boyle, Dillane, Carty, Marmion, Bealham, Buckley as all being competitive

thomond2006

Is Marmion even the starter at Connacht anymore? Blade seems to be preferred these days.

Dubinusa

Farrell at this point cannot win. If he goes with the tried and tested and they eke out a win....he's just not up to it.
If he brings in young lads and they lose to Italy.... they're not good enough or ready.
So, what happens if we do go with 4 losses? If the tried and tested are selected? My guess. Farrell will opt for the upcoming new youthful players.
Bear in mind, for years here we moaned that the successor to Rob Kearney was ???? Now we have fund a legitimate option at fb. Right now the problem is Murray and Sexton. But. In reality we are also in need of a consistent hooket and a loose head.
Plenty of worries in the day's ahead. They won't be settled this 6nations.
Farrell inherited a side in disarray, low on confidence, aging and with no form. He's capped several players. Some look very good, Keenan, Doris. Some need work and experience, Kelleher Connors. Burns and some look off the standard required, Lowe , Heffernan.
I feel JGP is a gapfill and is probably one who can be overtaken at anytime by several other scrum halves. I Don't think he will be a fixture in the squad. But, he is certainly capable.
I think Casey will be capped soon enough and hopefully he is the 9 of the future.
Replacing Sexton is going to be tricky. Harry Byrne was so below expectations against the Dragons. He doesn't deserve inclusion, yet. Healy can't get past JJ. So Burns is next up, depending of course on Carberry and his return.
Our loose head situation is not much better. Healy is old. Kilcoyne is 32 and probably doesn't have much left. After them is Ed Byrne and E.O.S. I think Farrell should have included E.O.S, he is playing regularly and playing well. Ed Byrne will not reach the requirements needed for a starting international loose head, imo. O'Sullivan can develop more.aftet that we await Wycherly and hopefully Milne.
Hooker is a crapshoot. Kelleher should start and get the chance to settle in to the side. But, Herring is also a good player. Regardless of what happens during the remainder of the tournament. Farrell will be the boogeyman. Which is part and parcel of the position. I would hope that Farrell does take an axe to underperforming players and coaches and is ruthless . Being everyone's mate is not part of the job. He's under the microscope and I hope he does well and does what is required.

Zzippy

Former Former Former wrote: »

Nailed it. Jesus that's embarassing.

What new Connacht player has deserved 'promotion' in that period?

It wasn't a great post, but no need for the "embarrassing" remark. And the answer to your question is Caolin Blade. And possibly Paul Boyle.

thomond2006

Boyle is someone whose hype suffers from playing for Connacht. I doubt that matters for the coaches but there's very little coverage of him in the media.

Former Former Former

Zzippy wrote: »

It wasn't a great post, but no need for the "embarrassing" remark. And the answer to your question is Caolin Blade. And possibly Paul Boyle.

I'd be embarrassed by it if I was a Connacht fan. Is that better? And I think it's a particularly unpleasant thing to say, especially about a coach who has no allegiance to any province. The whole "Joe only picks Leinster players" thing was tiresome enough, but Farrell?? Nah, that's completely out of line.

Blade would be very lucky to get himself ahead of the other four or five SHs. I guess Boyle could have been in the Baird/Coombes category of tackle bag holders. Either would have been a reasonable call-up, neither is remotely a basis for thinking he's anti-Connacht.

irishbucsfan

100% Caolan Blade

Fully paid up member of that fan club. Would have him at Leinster

Bazzo

Former Former Former wrote: »

I'd be embarrassed by it if I was a Connacht fan. Is that better? And I think it's a particularly unpleasant thing to say, especially about a coach who has no allegiance to any province. The whole "Joe only picks Leinster players" thing was tiresome enough, but Farrell?? Nah, that's completely out of line.

Blade would be very lucky to get himself ahead of the other four or five SHs. I guess Boyle could have been in the Baird/Coombes category of tackle bag holders. Either would have been a reasonable call-up, neither is remotely a basis for thinking he's anti-Connacht.

Why would a Connacht fan be embarrassed by it? Are you embarrassed by posts by other Leinster supporters?

irishbucsfan

Former Former Former wrote: »

I'd be embarrassed by it if I was a Connacht fan. Is that better? And I think it's a particularly unpleasant thing to say, especially about a coach who has no allegiance to any province. The whole "Joe only picks Leinster players" thing was tiresome enough, but Farrell?? Nah, that's completely out of line.

Blade would be very lucky to get himself ahead of the other four or five SHs. I guess Boyle could have been in the Baird/Coombes category of tackle bag holders. Either would have been a reasonable call-up, neither is remotely a basis for thinking he's anti-Connacht.

Why would Blade be lucky exactly?

irishbucsfan

Bazzo wrote: »

Why would a Connacht fan be embarrassed by it? Are you embarrassed by posts by other Leinster supporters?

I’m embarrassed by thomond2006 but only because he won’t admit he is one

Former Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why would Blade be lucky exactly?

Because there's Murray, then there are four other SHs who have been capped in the last 18 months, then Casey seems to have cornered the market on 'next big thing', and Blade was behind Marmion at Connacht until very recently.

I think Blade is really good, would have been happy to see him in the squad - but it's no outrage that he was left out.

CowboyTed

thomond2006 wrote: »

Is Marmion even the starter at Connacht anymore? Blade seems to be preferred these days.

They share the position... Blade probably deserves a shot in the Irish Jersey as well... Think he would suit Harry...

Personally I prefer Marmion to Blade but I think it is close,,,

ClanofLams

Dubinusa wrote: »

So, what happens if we do go with 4 losses? If the tried and tested are selected? My guess. Farrell will opt for the upcoming new youthful players.
.

Two points would be the lowest points total for Ireland in twenty plus years, since it changed from five nations to six nations.

In that scenario, it’s highly unlikely Farrell will need to worry about selection decisions.

Edit - Forgot they changed points, doesn’t make much difference, point remains that one win would be worst record in that time period.

CowboyTed

sydthebeat wrote: »

Persecutory delusion is strong in this post....

Sorry but those are the facts...
How could any coach pick Ross Byrne for Ireland... Billy had a stinker against Wales, Did Ross get to jump him in the pecking order, No....

That just shows players aren't competing for jerseys...

Ditto for Casey v JGP... JGP let in a try, no problem can't trust Casey... Marmion, Cooney or Blade have played better than them both... Casey looks like he has great potential but he doesn't play or share Number 1 for his province...

CowboyTed

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Don't know about new exactly, but you could make a case for Boyle, Dillane, Carty, Marmion, Bealham, Buckley as all being competitive

I could make a case for Blade, Tom Farrell (very unlucky with injury but better than Chris), Thornbury (I think our best 2nd row), Delahunt (might be the best hooker in Ireland)

theVersatile

In my mind, Boyle is a Jack O'Donoghue esque player - an excellent club player but probably won't be anything than a one or two cap international - not helped by the massive depth there is in the nation.

I couldn't complain if Blade or Carty were called in - but neither of them are automatic starters like some are calling for.

Niallof9

OneLungDavy wrote: »

It baffles me how anyone could think Ross Byrne is a better player than Carty, then again I'm not a professional coach.

Yet Andy Farrell clearly does. the one that is being defended to the hilt on here.

CowboyTed

theVersatile wrote: »

In my mind, Boyle is a Jack O'Donoghue esque player - an excellent club player but probably won't be anything than a one or two cap international - not helped by the massive depth there is in the nation.

I couldn't complain if Blade or Carty were called in - but neither of them are automatic starters like some are calling for.

I think Carty is ahead of Burns and Byrne and would bring a different game style to the table... A game style that would be leveraged by Harry or Ben later...

As JGP, I just find him very average... You could not see him ever on a team that would beat NZ... He reasonably fast but there is no real snipe around the sides, his game lack variety...
Then again I was giving out about Marmion kicking on Saturday night, Connacht only kick in that position when auditioning for the Irish team..

theVersatile

CowboyTed wrote: »

I think Carty is ahead of Burns and Byrne and would bring a different game style to the table... A game style that would be leveraged by Harry or Ben later...

As JGP, I just find him very average... You could not see him ever on a team that would beat NZ... He reasonably fast but there is no real snipe around the sides, his game lack variety...
Then again I was giving out about Marmion kicking on Saturday night, Connacht only kick in that position when auditioning for the Irish team..

Hard to disagree with much of that in fairness. To be honest, regarding Marmion I could never have seen him in a team to beat NZ until he did it in the AVIVA. I think JGP does snipe a bit in fairness, and something playing to his advantage is that he's reasonably complete as a 9. Pacey enough, decent kicking game, sufficient (the only word for it really) passing.
I think what needs to be accepted is that box kicking is a major part of pretty much any gameplan now. Even looking at that Marmion performance v NZ, I remember a pundit summing it up by saying "he did his best Connor Murray impression for eighty minutes, and did so excellently" or something along them lines. All you have to do is look at Varney in Italy v England to show what happens when the scrum half doesn't have a kicking game.
I haven't seen Blade to comment on whether his box kicking game is up to standard (it's the current weakness in Craig's game) - but that game is evidence that Marmion can kick - so has he slowed down or something that JGP is preferred?

errlloyd

I don't think JGP is a better option (read: more likely to make us win) than Murray, Marmion, Cooney, McGrath etcetera.

However, he's comfortably the most exciting scrum-half to watch in Ireland. He hasn't shown it this championship bar his little interplay with Lowe at the death of the French game. But he has more tricks than the rest.

Zzippy

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think JGP is a better option (read: more likely to make us win) than Murray, Marmion, Cooney, McGrath etcetera.

However, he's comfortably the most exciting scrum-half to watch in Ireland. He hasn't shown it this championship bar his little interplay with Lowe at the death of the French game. But he has more tricks than the rest.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but he is in his hole!