Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ClanofLams

There’s very little between the second tier of scrum halves JGP was behind McGrath, who had been behind Marmion until the World Cup, Blade and Cooney have been both behind Marmion at stages.

I do think it’s difficult to judge them at provincial level, the two Leinster scrum halves have a fair advantage being behind a pack that’s on top every game, the couple of games I can think of where that hasn’t been the case (European losses away in France and Saracens) neither have impressed, albeit think Gibson Park came off bench both times to be fair.

Marmion/Blade are often behind beaten pack which has also been the case relatively often for Cooney until this season, who has the added responsibility of being the fulcrum of the team.

Scratchly

Zzippy wrote: »

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but he is in his hole!

Hardly proving anything to the contrary are ya?

Zzippy

Scratchly wrote: »

Hardly proving anything to the contrary are ya?

Sure if a video clip isn't definitive proof then indanameajaysus what are we doing here at all?

Bazzo

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think JGP is a better option (read: more likely to make us win) than Murray, Marmion, Cooney, McGrath etcetera.

However, he's comfortably the most exciting scrum-half to watch in Ireland. He hasn't shown it this championship bar his little interplay with Lowe at the death of the French game. But he has more tricks than the rest.

This post should come with one of those "disputed claims" subtexts twitter was slapping on trumps posts.

Ulster fans will point to walking highlight reel John Cooney. Munster fans will have similar claims about the always exciting Casey. And Connacht fans about Blade and Marmion who can both be electric to watch. Even Luke McGrath when he's hitting his straps!

Tommybojangles

Honestly and I've said it in the Connacht thread, I think Marmion is a step up from the others. His awareness and game management are top notch to go along with the explosiveness that is just a little below Blades level.

It's already been discussed how he was poorly treated by national coaches but he was unfortunate to come out of the national team into a time when Blade was in the form of his life. Obviously I must be missing something but I feel like he just needs a stroke of luck over the next 2 years and he could easily be a starter at the RWC

Dubinusa

I can't imagine Murray making plays like Blades. I think the credit in the bank thing has been beaten to death. Murray for me, has no credit in the bank. He's just so ordinary right now.
I still believe the central contract status plays a role in selection. But, just my opinion. Be interesting to see what happens with Lowe. He's been dire, imo. But, I think he's going to be selected until he has a good game and then the world class stuff will bedazzle us all.

Lost Ormond

Dubinusa wrote: »

I can't imagine Murray making plays like Blades. I think the credit in the bank thing has been beaten to death. Murray for me, has no credit in the bank. He's just so ordinary right now.
I still believe the central contract status plays a role in selection. But, just my opinion. Be interesting to see what happens with Lowe. He's been dire, imo. But, I think he's going to be selected until he has a good game and then the world class stuff will bedazzle us all.

Well thats just false. You cant ignore Murrays 90 international caps and being the first Irish scrum half in a long time. Murray wont make some plays like Blade and that isnt a problem. Murray isnt ordinary right now

Central contracts will play a role and they should. Not sure how you do it differently unless you totally change how you contract players here and is that really needed? No.
Lowe has been poor but thats a very different issue to the rest of your post

sydthebeat

CowboyTed wrote: »

Sorry but those are the facts...
...

OK there Rafa.

Regardless of what you think, the reason that many connacht players are not in the squad is not because of any perceived bias in the coaching camp against them

irishbucsfan

There are two types of people in the world. People who don't watch Connacht, and people who know that Dupont is the second best scrum half in the world behind our lord and saviour C. Blade Esq.

phily2002

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Well thats just false. You cant ignore Murrays 90 international caps and being the first Irish scrum half in a long time. Murray wont make some plays like Blade and that isnt a problem. Murray isnt ordinary right now

Central contracts will play a role and they should. Not sure how you do it differently unless you totally change how you contract players here and is that really needed? No.
Lowe has been poor but thats a very different issue to the rest of your post

I think that's the problem with Irish rugby. Yes Murray has close to 90 caps but he's a shadow of his former self. I think the fact he can't make plays like Blade(and are other options at 9) is a major problem. You say he isn't ordinary but what does he bring out of the ordinary?

Our attack is blunt, and having a 9 who has no attacking threat just adds to our problems.
I really don't see what Murray brings at this stage. Yes he can box kick well but I'd take a quicker 9 who can make a break or make something out of nothing any day of the week.

Dubinusa

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Well thats just false. You cant ignore Murrays 90 international caps and being the first Irish scrum half in a long time. Murray wont make some plays like Blade and that isnt a problem. Murray isnt ordinary right now

Central contracts will play a role and they should. Not sure how you do it differently unless you totally change how you contract players here and is that really needed? No.
Lowe has been poor but thats a very different issue to the rest of your post

Absolutely not ignoring Murray's 90 caps. The point I am trying to make is, based on his form over the last 2 years, he really shouldn't have 90 caps. He was piss poor. Marmion showed he could step in and we played just fine. I suppose, the credit in the bank doesn't wash for me.
As far as the salaries go, how about a tiered structure.
Say a new lad with little experience and 3 years or less is a tier1. A tier 2 would be players with 3 years or more experience. Tier 3 would be tier 2 players with a boost for international caps!
There fixed.

Lost Ormond

phily2002 wrote: »

I think that's the problem with Irish rugby. Yes Murray has close to 90 caps but he's a shadow of his former self. I think the fact he can't make plays like Blade(and are other options at 9) is a major problem. You say he isn't ordinary but what does he bring out of the ordinary?

Our attack is blunt, and having a 9 who has no attacking threat just adds to our problems.
I really don't see what Murray brings at this stage. Yes he can box kick well but I'd take a quicker 9 who can make a break or make something out of nothing any day of the week.

Murray never has played like Blade so that he doesnt now is irrelevant. There isnt many of our 9s right now that play like Blade. His game management and experience etc show he isnt ordinary.
Murray makes breaks occasionally. How often do other 9s in international games make breaks as a comparison as regular pro14 games are not the same as international games.

Piehead

crossman47 wrote: »

I agree with every word of this https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irish-rugby-is-the-latest-example-of-how-new-isn-t-always-better-1.4490909

Not really. We were literally a laughing stock at the 2019 World Cup and England shredded us embarrassingly on a number of occasions that year.

phily2002

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Murray never has played like Blade so that he doesnt now is irrelevant. There isnt many of our 9s right now that play like Blade. His game management and experience etc show he isnt ordinary.
Murray makes breaks occasionally. How often do other 9s in international games make breaks as a comparison as regular pro14 games are not the same as international games.

So other 9s make breaks, beat defenders give quick ball but Murray has experience...
Most 9s make breaks in the 6 nations. Even JGP(who I don't think should be in the squad) created a break for Ringrose against Wales in his cameo and had his play with Lowe which could have come to something if any of the others reacted. Murray had no creative plays and hasn't in years.
Granted the others make breaks in the pro 14 but they also do it in the champions cup as well.
Cooneys best performances have had a way higher ceiling than anything Murray has shown. The couple of quiet games that got him dropped from the squad weren't a patch on some of Murray's bad games(Japan for example).

AbusesToilets

Murray has also reverted to the glacial passing speed he had when he first broke into the team.

DGRulz

I skipped a couple of pages, is Blade the player we're bigging up this week? Getting hard to keep track.

Dubinusa

DGRulz wrote: »

I skipped a couple of pages, is Blade the player we're bigging up this week? Getting hard to keep track.

We could bring back Stringer, I suppose

Must love hardship

Is Rugby 4568 banned or will they have the team early for us this week??

willit

I think the main reason, other than experience yadda yadda, that Murray is still the first choice 9 has a lot to do with his defense. He is a big unit for a 9 and can stop a rampaging forward more effectively than the other options.
I do realise that this isn't the main purpose of a scrumhalf, but I also think it's in the thought process of the coaches when they're deciding on the team sheet. Also, imo, I don't think he's as bad as is being made out really, not as threatening as he used to be in the red zone, but also not useless.

mfceiling

Niallof9 wrote: »

newsflash son, we aren't winning it this year.

anyway i'll be laying a bet on Italy.

All joking aside Niall would you throw up a screenshot of the bet....just for the craic.

Scratchly

mfceiling wrote: »

All joking aside Niall would you throw up a screenshot of the bet....just for the craic.

Didn't that poster say we could play our third string team and still win at a canter? So no reason not to blood some new talent etc etc.

But if we field a full strength conservative team we might lose?

Odd logic.

ersatz

Dubinusa wrote: »

We could bring back Stringer, I suppose

He has even more caps than Murray!

It's fair to say that Murray is not the attacking threat or creative force he was up until his injury and he's highly unlikely to improve on his current game, but JGP is not a major improvement. Maybe some of the others would be or maybe it's genuinely the case that none of Cooney/Blade/Marmion/McGrath are any better and Murray's experience seals it. Perhaps Farrell believes some of the younger 9s need more experience before they step up. If we are primarily concerned with the world cup then there's time and we are stuck with Murray till 2022. The good news is there are a strong group of pretenders.

10 is a bigger worry. I've been impressed with the breathlessness with which posters are bigging up H Byrne but less impressed with his play the few times I've watched him. He's tidy and deceptively quick and he has a nice (particularly short) pass but I've never seen him stand out as the best or most influential player in a game, and those are games where Leinster are generally cruising and he has much time as any OH in pro rugby on the ball. That's not to say he hasn't had standout games or that he is not a potentially great player, but I haven't seen what the fuss is about. Carberry at a similar stage was one of those players who made a big impression in nearly every game. His imminent return is very good news and I hope he has put his injury worries behind him because none of the senior guys look the part, HB has a long way to go, and none of the other young OHs seem to be in the frame. Farrell has played things cautiously up until now and he doesn't strike me as a guy who is going to change radically either tactically or as a selector. I'd hate to think we will be having this same conversation in a year or 2 but we might.

irelandrover

phily2002 wrote: »

Cooneys best performances have had a way higher ceiling than anything Murray has shown. The couple of quiet games that got him dropped from the squad weren't a patch on some of Murray's bad games(Japan for example).

Cooney has had some fantastic games in the last 2 years. But in 2018 Murray was regarded as one of the 2 best scrums halves in the world. To say Cooney has a higher ceiling is just bizarre.

phily2002

irelandrover wrote: »

Cooney has had some fantastic games in the last 2 years. But in 2018 Murray was regarded as one of the 2 best scrums halves in the world. To say Cooney has a higher ceiling is just bizarre.

Yeah again this is the problem with Irish rugby. You have to go back 3 years to when Murray was playing consistently well. Sexton was also world player of the year, POM was great against NZ.
All counts for little today. Cooney has been winning excellent for 2 years but as you say Murray was excellent 3 years ago so we pick him. We need to reward form and not reputation

irelandrover

phily2002 wrote: »

Yeah again this is the problem with Irish rugby. You have to go back 3 years to when Murray was playing consistently well. Sexton was also world player of the year, POM was great against NZ.
All counts for little today. Cooney has been winning excellent for 2 years but as you say Murray was excellent 3 years ago so we pick him. We need to reward form and not reputation

I didn't say we should pick him. I said his ceiling was higher. The poster i responded to said Cooney has a higher ceiling than Murray but IMO thats just not true. Murrays ceiling is been one of th ebest scrum halves in the world.

And Cooney was off form after the restart, so much so that he was dropped in Ulster.

phog

phily2002 wrote: »

Yeah again this is the problem with Irish rugby. You have to go back 3 years to when Murray was playing consistently well. Sexton was also world player of the year, POM was great against NZ.
All counts for little today. Cooney has been winning excellent for 2 years but as you say Murray was excellent 3 years ago so we pick him. We need to reward form and not reputation

That's not what he said.

What was said was "Cooneys best performances have had a way higher ceiling than anything Murray has shown" that is simple not true.


At this stage Cooney seems to be 4th best choice for the Irish Team, I don't know what he needs to do to get into the squad but Murray isn't his only problem.

Scratchly

irelandrover wrote: »

I didn't say we should pick him. I said his ceiling was higher. The poster i responded to said Cooney has a higher ceiling than Murray but IMO thats just not true. Murrays ceiling is been one of th ebest scrum halves in the world.

And Cooney was off form after the restart, so much so that he was dropped in Ulster.

I think this ceiling talk is rather pointless unless it's a young player with potential.

Murray and Sexton will never hit the heights they once did. They're on a steady decline and don't even put in consistent performances let alone get anywhere near the performances of their prime.

If Cooney can play consistently well he's a better option than Murray regardless of what Murray used to be capable of.

Scratchly

phog wrote: »

That's not what he said.

What was said was "Cooneys best performances have had a way higher ceiling than anything Murray has shown" that is simple not true.


At this stage Cooney seems to be 4th best choice for the Irish Team, I don't know what he needs to do to get into the squad but Murray isn't his only problem.

Was there talk of attitude issues? Did he burn a few bridges when he missed out on selection or something?

sydthebeat

phily2002 wrote: »

.....Cooney has been winning excellent for 2 years but as you say Murray was excellent 3 years ago so we pick him. We need to reward form and not reputation

was Cooney "winning excellent" when he was dropped by ulster for the Pro14 final only 6 months ago ??
who was it that started at 9 that day for the team that eventually won the competition??

a 'not so small' fact that lead to him not being selected for the ANC squad.

Former Former Former

Scratchly wrote: »

Was there talk of attitude issues? Did he burn a few bridges when he missed out on selection or something?

I have never heard any suggestion of that

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The coaches probably think the other guys are better.