Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Scratchly

Former Former Former wrote: »

I have never heard any suggestion of that

The simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The coaches probably think the other guys are better.

Yeah, I thought I heard something on off the ball once. Maybe it was a throwaway comment or something.

bilston

Must love hardship wrote: »

Is Rugby 4568 banned or will they have the team early for us this week??

Haha...I was thinking about this yesterday, maybe he was caught out...has he been seen since?

bilston

sydthebeat wrote: »

was Cooney "winning excellent" when he was dropped by ulster for the Pro14 final only 6 months ago ??
who was it that started at 9 that day for the team that eventually won the competition??

a 'not so small' fact that lead to him not being selected for the ANC squad.

He had 3 bad games...it might actually have been 2 1/2 bad games...fine that's how he missed out in Autumn, but there is no reason why he shouldn't be there at the.moment.

I have no issue with Casey being ahead of him, however if the coach isn't going to use Casey in a clutch moment in a test match then Cooney (or McGrath or Marmion) should be on the bench ahead of him.

So my point is, by all means have Casey in the squad...but back him! If not, he is a wasted jersey, play someone else.

phog

bilston wrote: »

He had 3 bad games...it might actually have been 2 1/2 bad games...fine that's how he missed out in Autumn, but there is no reason why he shouldn't be there at the.moment.

I have no issue with Casey being ahead of him, however if the coach isn't going to use Casey in a clutch moment in a test match then Cooney (or McGrath or Marmion) should be on the bench ahead of him.

So my point is, by all means have Casey in the squad...but back him! If not, he is a wasted jersey, play someone else.

I partially agree with you here but I also think "the someone else" would have got the same game time v France as Casey did.

phily2002

sydthebeat wrote: »

was Cooney "winning excellent" when he was dropped by ulster for the Pro14 final only 6 months ago ??
who was it that started at 9 that day for the team that eventually won the competition??

a 'not so small' fact that lead to him not being selected for the ANC squad.

He had a couple of bad games and got dropped but has been excellent since. His bad games were not a patch on Murray's performances vs Japan and NZ and many others in the last 2 years.

phily2002

phog wrote: »

That's not what he said.

What was said was "Cooneys best performances have had a way higher ceiling than anything Murray has shown" that is simple not true.


At this stage Cooney seems to be 4th best choice for the Irish Team, I don't know what he needs to do to get into the squad but Murray isn't his only problem.

Cooney has shown a way higher ceiling than Murray in the last 2 years, hence why he was nominated for european player of the year last year. This year he has the most try assists and clean breaks.
Obviously Murray in his prime had a higher ceiling(he's the best 9 we have ever had) but recently he is not on Cooneys level.

phog

phily2002 wrote: »

Cooney has shown a way higher ceiling than Murray in the last 2 years, hence why he was nominated for european player of the year last year. This year he has the most try assists and clean breaks.
Obviously Murray in his prime had a higher ceiling(he's the best 9 we have ever had) but recently he is not on Cooneys level.

That's not what was said though and might not even be true, it's a fan's view of two players and argumentative at best.

aloooof

phily2002 wrote: »

He had a couple of bad games and got dropped but has been excellent since. His bad games were not a patch on Murray's performances vs Japan and NZ and many others in the last 2 years.

Those games for Murray were 16 months or more ago. If we're talking about including Cooney on form, then I'm not sure these games should come up as a point against Murray.

Imo, I actually thought Murray was pretty good against Wales, tbh. He's added a snipe back into his game, which had been missing, his kicking is consistently excellent and his passing is more accurate than JGP's for me (who seems to have a quicker tempo but also throws the occasional completely wayward pass and makes a poor decision. Thinking the pass that Ringrose had to reach up to claim when we got beyond the edge of France, for example).

phily2002

phog wrote: »

That's not what was said though and might not even be true, it's a fan's view of two players and argumentative at best.

Ok has Murray won a man of the match in the last 2 years?
Cooney has won multiple and carried Ulster in some games. Fair enough it's opinion on who has the better performances by I don't think it's even close

phog

aloooof wrote: »

Those games for Murray were 16 months or more ago. If we're talking about including Cooney on form, then I'm not sure these games should come up as a point against Murray.

Imo, I actually thought Murray was pretty good against Wales, tbh. He's added a snipe back into his game, which had been missing, his kicking is consistently excellent and his passing is more accurate than JGP's for me (who seems to have a quicker tempo but also throws the occasional completely wayward pass and makes a poor decision. Thinking the pass that Ringrose had to reach up to claim when we got beyond the edge of France, for example).

No, no, no, no, you're missing the point, you're only allowed compare Murray's bad games to Cooney's good games and totally ignore the other two guys that are ahead of Cooney.

That's why Cooney should be in the Irish Squad.

phog

phily2002 wrote: »

Ok has Murray won a man of the match in the last 2 years?
Cooney has won multiple and carried Ulster in some games. Fair enough it's opinion on who has the better performances by I don't think it's even close

Do you honestly believe that a coach picks a team based on MOTM awards?

At this moment in time, if Ireland have a scrumhalf going on the Lions Tour I reckon it will be Murray. That will be 3 coaches that have selected him against all the others available from an Irish pov.

phily2002

aloooof wrote: »

Those games for Murray were 16 months or more ago. If we're talking about including Cooney on form, then I'm not sure these games should come up as a point against Murray.

Imo, I actually thought Murray was pretty good against Wales, tbh. He's added a snipe back into his game, which had been missing, his kicking is consistently excellent and his passing is more accurate than JGP's for me (who seems to have a quicker tempo but also throws the occasional completely wayward pass and makes a poor decision. Thinking the pass that Ringrose had to reach up to claim when we got beyond the edge of France, for example).

I disagree with Murray against Wales, I thought he was poor, just too many mistakes. The pass for the first try to give Wales possession, the penalty advantage he gave them for the second try for the high tackle, the 3 points he gave them for blocking and he missed a couple of tackles.
I agree that JGP isn't the answer but at least he can create something.
Granted Murray's poor games I reference were in the world cup but the point was he still gets selected automatically, Cooney had a couple of bad games after the break and gets chopped.

phily2002

phog wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that a coach picks a team based on MOTM awards?

At this moment in time, if Ireland have a scrumhalf going on the Lions Tour I reckon it will be Murray. That will be 3 coaches that have selected him against all the others available from an Irish pov.

No I don't think they pick on motm awards. However we were talking about higher ceiling so it shows that Cooney has multiple times been the best player on the pitch in the last 2 years. Murray hasn't

sydthebeat

bilston wrote: »

He had 3 bad games...it might actually have been 2 1/2 bad games...fine that's how he missed out in Autumn, but there is no reason why he shouldn't be there at the.moment.

I have no issue with Casey being ahead of him, however if the coach isn't going to use Casey in a clutch moment in a test match then Cooney (or McGrath or Marmion) should be on the bench ahead of him.

So my point is, by all means have Casey in the squad...but back him! If not, he is a wasted jersey, play someone else.

i agree 100%

on Cooney though, it appears to be simply a case of he missed the ship.

Had he come back from the long break in form and made the ANC ahead of JGP they he possible would have those 7 caps that JGP currently has.

JGP is 2 years younger than Cooney. The coaches seems to have pinned their colours to his mast, rather than to Cooneys...
who, lets be fair, has been in many irish camps (including the most recent two!) so AF knows exactly what he will get from him.

phily2002

phog wrote: »

No, no, no, no, you're missing the point, you're only allowed compare Murray's bad games to Cooney's good games and totally ignore the other two guys that are ahead of Cooney.

That's why Cooney should be in the Irish Squad.

Good one...
I've also stated that JGP shouldn't be in the squad but that doesn't fit your witty responses agenda...

phog

phily2002 wrote: »

No I don't think they pick on motm awards. However we were talking about higher ceiling so it shows that Cooney has multiple times been the best player on the pitch in the last 2 years. Murray hasn't

It shows Cooney was the best Ulster player on the field? It doesn't compare the two players

phog

phily2002 wrote: »

Good one...
I've also stated that JGP shouldn't be in the squad but that doesn't fit your witty responses agenda...

I've no agenda, I just cant get my head around why a few Pro14 MOTM awards should have a player starting for the Irish team

phily2002

phog wrote: »

I've no agenda, I just cant get my head around why a few Pro14 MOTM awards should have a player starting for the Irish team

In fairness it's not just pro 14 motm. Last year he made both pro 14 and champions cup teams of the year and was nominated for european player of the year.
This year besides the couple of games after the break he's back to his best again...

theVersatile

European Player of the Year nominee is an equally silly metric to use - consider g they're only based on teams that make the latter knockout stages. There are far more talented players than Cooney who weren't nominated simply because their club didn't make it into the knockouts

theVersatile

Catt and Farrell put the onus on Ireland's players to make better decisions https://the42.ie/5362202

This kind of ties into a point I was trying to make a few days ago. The opportunities are there to be taken, but the wrong decisions are being made and skill execution is letting us down. We have a shape and there's nothing really wrong with it IMO.
Of course there will be some who say "scoff of course he's blaming the players" but I think the coaches are right on this one.

Must love hardship

Do ireland have any games lined up for the summer?

Is there a tour planned to America or Argentina or anywhere??

I know last years tour of oz was cancelled and next years tour is to nz but what is the plan for summer 21?

This autumn i think its 3 games. Pacific Islands, Japan and nz.

CowboyTed

irelandrover wrote: »

Cooney has had some fantastic games in the last 2 years. But in 2018 Murray was regarded as one of the 2 best scrums halves in the world. To say Cooney has a higher ceiling is just bizarre.

The couple of times Marmion was drafted in (e.g. England and New Zealand), it was considered that Marmion wasn't that far behind Murray...

By the way, Ireland kicks way too much from the base of the scrum... We should be judging SH on there ability of their pass, ability to snipe, speed to the base, defense....
By the way Murray's kicking in Wales was terrible...

CowboyTed

aloooof wrote: »

Those games for Murray were 16 months or more ago. If we're talking about including Cooney on form, then I'm not sure these games should come up as a point against Murray.

Imo, I actually thought Murray was pretty good against Wales, tbh. He's added a snipe back into his game, which had been missing, his kicking is consistently excellent and his passing is more accurate than JGP's for me (who seems to have a quicker tempo but also throws the occasional completely wayward pass and makes a poor decision. Thinking the pass that Ringrose had to reach up to claim when we got beyond the edge of France, for example).

Murray's kicking in Wales was awful... There was far too much of it and too long...

Murray just struggles to get around the field like he used too... He can't seem to keep the tempo at high level like Cooney... And Marmion and Blade are at another level up again...

I am of the same school about these positions... Casey is not trusted, Ross Byrne couldn't get past Billy after him having a stinker...
There are 4 Scrum Halves who deserve trust... Personally I think Marmion is the head of that group but I can totally understand the shouts for Cooney...

The mistakes for what we are experiencing now were done in the October & November.. Murray & JGP got nearly all the game time for SH... Sexton, Billy and Ross for OH...

These were games for experimentation and Farrell played the same tired combinations...
Ross got a second start with JGP against England and performed as brutally as he did the first time, this was the only time someone was tried to start A class opposition.

Now people wonder why we have so limited options when we fail...

VANG1

Interesting that nearly all international pundits picked jgp for their team of the weekend after last round. You seem very biased against him, no.1 at Leinster also. Marmion is no. 2 at Connacht.

sydthebeat

VANG1 wrote: »

Interesting that nearly all international pundits picked jgp for their team of the weekend after last round. You seem very biased against him, no.1 at Leinster also. Marmion is no. 2 at Connacht.

its just a case of 'provincial fan pimping provincial player'

nothing new here, happens every six nations

Burkie1203

Scratchly wrote: »

Was there talk of attitude issues? Did he burn a few bridges when he missed out on selection or something?

was he training with the squad a few weeks ago and was at the game last week as back up?

molloyjh

theVersatile wrote: »

Catt and Farrell put the onus on Ireland's players to make better decisions https://the42.ie/5362202

This kind of ties into a point I was trying to make a few days ago. The opportunities are there to be taken, but the wrong decisions are being made and skill execution is letting us down. We have a shape and there's nothing really wrong with it IMO.
Of course there will be some who say "scoff of course he's blaming the players" but I think the coaches are right on this one.

We even saw against France on a number of occasions we created space on the edges but just failed to take advantage. That suggests that the overall plan itself has merits at least, and we are executing it well enough at times. Its just when it comes time to pull the trigger on it that we seem to struggle. Keenans poor pass that led to the Herring knock-on, Ringrose kicking when we had an overlap on the right etc.

The whole "quietness" thing is something that Lancaster mentioned a numer of times before too. It seems Irish players as a whole, while intelligent rugby players, are less vocal than, say, English players. Less inclined to speak up in sessions or naturally take on leadership roles. Lancaster has even spoken about how he's had to push guys at Leinster to do the latter. I think Gatland made reference to it before too.

In some ways we are probably more suited to a Joe Schmidt "here's what I want you to do, now go and do it" than Andy Farrells "here's the overall structure, but its up to you to play what's in front if you". The question now is whether we can adapt to the more heads up approach or not.

theVersatile

VANG1 wrote: »

Interesting that nearly all international pundits picked jgp for their team of the weekend after last round. You seem very biased against him, no.1 at Leinster also. Marmion is no. 2 at Connacht.

As in the Lions TOTW? In fairness, you couldn't give it to Price after he kicked the ball back to Wales with 30 seconds left, the Welsh 9s were average, and Youngs wasn't exactly spectacular. It was more a case of he was the least poor scrum half rather than the best (mind I don't think he was terrible v France)

theVersatile

molloyjh wrote: »

We even saw against France on a number of occasions we created space on the edges but just failed to take advantage. That suggests that the overall plan itself has merits at least, and we are executing it well enough at times. Its just when it comes time to pull the trigger on it that we seem to struggle. Keenans poor pass that led to the Herring knock-on, Ringrose kicking when we had an overlap on the right etc.

The whole "quietness" thing is something that Lancaster mentioned a numer of times before too. It seems Irish players as a whole, while intelligent rugby players, are less vocal than, say, English players. Less inclined to speak up in sessions or naturally take on leadership roles. Lancaster has even spoken about how he's had to push guys at Leinster to do the latter. I think Gatland made reference to it before too.

In some ways we are probably more suited to a Joe Schmidt "here's what I want you to do, now go and do it" than Andy Farrells "here's the overall structure, but its up to you to play what's in front if you". The question now is whether we can adapt to the more heads up approach or not.

Exactly. Just on the point of our "quietness", there's a Rob Kearney player mic from his first Super Rugby AU game and it gives a nice insight to the voice that he must have had in the team before he left. Given him and Best are both gone, those are two massive leadership roles which have to be filled.

Must love hardship

VANG1 wrote: »

Interesting that nearly all international pundits picked jgp for their team of the weekend after last round. You seem very biased against him, no.1 at Leinster also. Marmion is no. 2 at Connacht.

He is not no.1 at Leinster. Never has been and barring injury i seriously doubt he never will be.
Have a look back over the last few years Champions cup games. Mcgrath has started about 10 of the last 12 games and that is since the 3 into 2 rule.

JgP has never been a regular starter in the champions cup or at super rugby level.

He is a finisher, a sub what ever you want to call it. And in most of those games he comes on in Leinster are winning comfortably. He has a grand armchair ride.

His pass is mediocre off his left. His defense is poor. Have never seen him manage a tight game well.

Lord knows what farrells sees in him??

But the fact that Farrell has brought 2 back up, sub 9's in his 6 nations squad and left the connacht leinster and ulster starters with their clubs begs the question does Farrell know what he is looking for in a 9???

His selection of a 10 who doesn't kick regularly for his club is also a glaring black mark against his selection ability. If he wanted him he should have partnered him with cooney.

He has made a few mistakes with selections and that happens we are all human but not admitting to them and doubling down on them when backed into a corner shows Farrells limitations or lack of experience as a head coach