Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

I agree France have been woeful in past 10 years but I would still feel overall by most measures they are a stronger Rugby power than ourselves.They make World cup finals ,their league is stronger,their players are more naturally talented and they have massive numbers on their side.I think we have over achieved during the same period and my point being we should not expect that level of success to be maintained and I was giving my view of where I think our expectations should be while always hoping we exceed them.

Really, if they are a stronger nation where’s their 6N trophy?

They USED to make world cup finals, no player in the French set up as made a final so it’s an irrelevant comparison.

That’s all subjective reasons, if that was all true or a factor they would have won a couple of 6N, done well at world cups or had any sort of level of consistency. It no coincidence that they have only improved when a coach came in and added a lot of structure to their play.

Our expectations should be the best team in the 6N, that always should be the expectations and anything less would concern me. We have some of the strongest clubs in Europe, we have the best control of our players to ensure they can get he beat out of themselves, most of the players play for the same clubs so have very high levels on continuity etc we have plenty of pirks so we have no excuses to settle for less.

UAEguy2020

aloooof wrote: »

You mentioned it's Ireland 3, Wales 3 and England 4 over the last decade. But take the previous 11 years since it became the 6 Nations.

France: 5
England: 3
Wales: 2
Ireland: 1

I would say 8 out of 11 tournaments for England and France is pretty dominant tbh.

I didn’t realize it was 2011... ( Ps all 3 of those 6N for England were won before 2004, hardly “domination” and infact they did Jack **** for the rest of the 2000-2010 period).

Beechwoodspark

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Something has rattled Johnny

Only a few weeks ago he was praising Tom Brady and talking about how he was a role model for him in terms of longevity

And now he's hinting he wants to retire next year.

Maybe he has finally realised that being a quarterback and playing rugby are completely different

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I didn’t realize it was 2011... ( Ps all 3 of those 6N for England were won before 2004, hardly “domination” and infact they did Jack **** for the rest of the 2000-2010 period).

I didn't realise "ever" only went back to 2011... :rolleyes:

Your point about resources was in reply to a post about England and France. By any measure, 8 out of 11 tournaments wins for those is dominating.

stephen_n

Scratchly wrote: »

Yeah, I thought I heard something on off the ball once. Maybe it was a throwaway comment or something.

Think it was Jackman who suggested he doesn’t train well. If I remember correctly he was arguing for him to be in the team at the time.

Scratchly

glasso wrote: »

Maybe he has finally realised that being a quarterback and playing rugby are completely different

Is he still in the middle of contract negotiations or has that been wrapped up?

Maybe he's just letting everyone know just how important he is by letting them picture the next world Cup without him.

Scratchly

stephen_n wrote: »

Think it was Jackman who suggested he doesn’t train well. If I remember correctly he was arguing for him to be in the team at the time.

That might have been it yeah.

dublin49

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Really, if they are a stronger nation where’s their 6N trophy?

They USED to make world cup finals, no player in the French set up as made a final so it’s an irrelevant comparison.

That’s all subjective reasons, if that was all true or a factor they would have won a couple of 6N, done well at world cups or had any sort of level of consistency. It no coincidence that they have only improved when a coach came in and added a lot of structure to their play.

Our expectations should be the best team in the 6N, that always should be the expectations and anything less would concern me. We have some of the strongest clubs in Europe, we have the best control of our players to ensure they can get he beat out of themselves, most of the players play for the same clubs so have very high levels on continuity etc we have plenty of pirks so we have no excuses to settle for less.

I would substitute "our ambition should be " for "our expectations".there is no reason we cannot aim to win each six nations when it comes around.I think to expect to win each one is not a view I would share .

CowboyTed

molloyjh wrote: »

Is this not a bit simplistic? If we are creating space (which we are) then the 15 players on the pitch have all contributed to that. We are utilising the full width of the pitch with the intent of stretching the opposition to create gaps or mismatches in the line. That requires all 15 to play their part. The problem is that we don't seem to know when or how to take advantage of that once we've created them. Part of that could be communication for example. Part of it could just be poor decision making. It's hard to know from the TV.

Take the below, where Burns goes for the pre-planned up and under when we have space and numbers to go through the hands (this is a turnover off line out so we didn't create the space or numbers here). Given his position it may be hard for him to see that. The guys outside him need to be calling it. They don't look to be though. They need to be on to Burns before he gets that, calling the space.




The Ringrose example below where we have a possible 2 or 3 on 1 with JGP running a support line. This is a genuine try scoring opportunity from inside our own half. But Ringrose elects to kick. Is he getting the call from outside? Is he aware himself of whats on? JGP certainly is, so Ringrose should be too. So his decision to kick must surely be on him? That's not an issue with our backline play. We've created the opportunity and we're set up to take advantage. But an individual error costs us the opportunity.




Similar here at the end of the game. We've created the space and the numbers but is Ringrose just not calling it? Is Henshaw making a poor decision? We don't know, but it is almost certainly individual error here again. This is a probable 2 on 1 and again JGP is keeping the option to support the break open again. Not as clear cut a try scoring opportunity given how Dulin is covering across, but it's certainly an opportunity to get in behind their defensive line.




Our attacking gameplan is what created these opportunities. It was poor communication and/or execution at the key moments that cost us.

And yes, I shamelessly stole this from MK, but the point remains. There are signs that the way the coaches want us to play does and can work. But we need the guys on the pitch to deliver on that better.

The first one is a complete error by an Out Half... Rule of thumb, turn over the ball, run it, keep it in hand, there line is not in a defensive position. Out half has the when in doubt kick mentality set.

Garry Ringrose, same thing, when in doubt, kick, just gain territory...

Last one was less of a chance and going a long the line when they had a shooter out of there line was a possibility.. Could have been better but not like the other two...

I know this is a massive contrast but Connacht didn't kick for a year and won the Pro 14... I think Ireland do well out field in gaining territory and then win the ball back.

It is then that they run out of ideas... they find it hard when trying to create a gap.

Neil3030

molloyjh wrote: »

Let's not forget that Ringrose made a very similar error vs Saracens in the 2019 HEC final. I think there's possibly a few things going on.

The previous set-up may still be having an impact in terms of individual decision making, but we're nearly 18 months on from that so I'm not sure we can fall back on that excuse for much longer.

We've heard from a number of coaches now that Irish players often lack the kind of on-field decision making and communication that other countries seem to have. Whether that's a confidence thing or a programming thing it's hard to say. But Lancaster has spoken in some depth about it from a Leinster perspective, so it isn't a phenomenon limited just to the national side. And I'm pretty sure Gatland mentioned it a few years back too. Maybe we're not as comfortable being forceful about it or something, I don't know. But if Farrell, Catt, Lancaster and Gatland have all referenced it in different contexts and at different times, there must be something to it.

Mistakes happen. Confidence is a possibility of course. But what pushes me toward over coaching is the sheet number of these mistakes. In a single game.

Piehead

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Something has rattled Johnny

Only a few weeks ago he was praising Tom Brady and talking about how he was a role model for him in terms of longevity

And now he's hinting he wants to retire next year.

Needs to retire now and allow next generation of 10s be bloodied and expose to as much international game time as possible ahead of World Cup. No point having a geriatric soldiering on with barely adequate time performances living on past glories

molloyjh

dublin49 wrote: »

I would substitute "our ambition should be " for "our expectations".there is no reason we cannot aim to win each six nations when it comes around.I think to expect to win each one is not a view I would share .

Exactly. Setting an expectation that we are the best is a good way of being disappointed and frustrated while also not fully appreciating the successes we have. After all, the only way is down. Its also a great way to deny he reality that no team can ever live up to that expectation. Its daft.

Also, there are plenty of reasons that we aren't the best. A fraction of the playing population as well as a fraction of the number of senior players playing the game both mean it is (a) harder for us to develop the same level of talent and (b) almost impossible for us to develop anything like like same level of depth as the likes of England and France. We have to work much, much harder just to match their starting XVs, let alone develop a wider group of 30-40 players at the same level.

The idea that we have good provincial teams is great and all, but we've only won 1 on the last 8 HECs. And we have a stronger concentration of internationals in each of our provinces than the English or French would have in any of their clubs, so that imbalance creates an imbalance in the results we see at provincial level.

Money wise, the RFU and the FFR have less of a drain on their finances from their professional game than we do so are able to invest more in the national team set-up. Larger populations also means more money through the gates and from sponsorship and merchandise.

We've done a good job of maximising our ability to compete through some of the measures above, but we are still always playing catch up in a race that we simply can't win consistently. We'd need to be consistently performing far and above England and France. Another hugely unrealistic expectation that flies in the face of reality.

molloyjh

Neil3030 wrote: »

Mistakes happen. Confidence is a possibility of course. But what pushes me toward over coaching is the sheet number of these mistakes. In a single game.

That would equally apply if it were a cultural issue though too wouldn't it?

UAEguy2020

molloyjh wrote: »

Exactly. Setting an expectation that we are the best is a good way of being disappointed and frustrated while also not fully appreciating the successes we have. After all, the only way is down. Its also a great way to deny he reality that no team can ever live up to that expectation. Its daft.

Also, there are plenty of reasons that we aren't the best. A fraction of the playing population as well as a fraction of the number of senior players playing the game both mean it is (a) harder for us to develop the same level of talent and (b) almost impossible for us to develop anything like like same level of depth as the likes of England and France. We have to work much, much harder just to match their starting XVs, let alone develop a wider group of 30-40 players at the same level.

The idea that we have good provincial teams is great and all, but we've only won 1 on the last 8 HECs. And we have a stronger concentration of internationals in each of our provinces than the English or French would have in any of their clubs, so that imbalance creates an imbalance in the results we see at provincial level.

Money wise, the RFU and the FFR have less of a drain on their finances from their professional game than we do so are able to invest more in the national team set-up. Larger populations also means more money through the gates and from sponsorship and merchandise.

We've done a good job of maximising our ability to compete through some of the measures above, but we are still always playing catch up in a race that we simply can't win consistently. We'd need to be consistently performing far and above England and France. Another hugely unrealistic expectation that flies in the face of reality.

Setting the expectations at being the best is how we become the best, we are good enough to win the 6N so that should be the expectation.

Ah great here’s comes the generic excuses again.
You do realize it’s 23 v 23 not 70 million v 7 million right? You can throw these subjective numbers all you want but at the end of the day it’s just an excuse to accept mediocrity and if we accept mediocrity we will continue to get knocked out in the QF’s at RWC’s if even that.

These all just sound like excuses quite frankly, at the end of the day it’s our 23 vs their 23 and the simple question I have is are the Irish coaching team or Ireland as a whole getting the best out of what they have at their disposal, yes or no? If the answer is no which I hope it is this all the excuses above mean absolutely nothing as if we won’t get our own house in order and are already just sitting back and making excuses than we are already ****ed for 2023 regardless of what happens.

Here’s a dose of reality for you, for all the excuses you have given it’s actually never in the history of the 6N turned into reality on the pitch which defeats the argument you are putting forward and further proves my point that if we want to be a successful rugby nation the expectation has to be to win the 6N every year, if that’s not the expectation than we can forget about doing anything in 2023. If we are good enough to win the 6 nations they expectation should be we go out and win it, it’s having that mindset that will leave us in good stead, it’s the mindset of not bothering and making up excuses that allow it to be acceptable to have mediocre results that will lead us to getting an early flight home in 2023, in 2018 I had hope these loser mentality days were behind us but it appears not.

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

I would substitute "our ambition should be " for "our expectations".there is no reason we cannot aim to win each six nations when it comes around.I think to expect to win each one is not a view I would share .

So you say we should settle set our expectations lower than what we are capable of? That’s the mentality of a loser, I sincerely hope the Irish squad don’t share that same view otherwise we are in trouble.

dublin49

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

So you say we should settle set our expectations lower than what we are capable of? That’s the mentality of a loser, I sincerely hope the Irish squad don’t share that same view otherwise we are in trouble.

I am merely a fan so I cannot be a winner or loser.I like to think my expectations are informed by a realistic assessment over many years of faithful support but my ambition for the team is boundless.

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

I am merely a fan so I cannot be a winner or loser.I like to think my expectations are informed by a realistic assessment over many years of faithful support but my ambition for the team is boundless.

We are good enough to win the 6N so that should be the expectation, that’s the expectation of a team that has ambitions of atleast getting to a RWC SF let alone winning a world World Cup. Setting the bar any lower is the mentality of a team that is proud of a QF exit. Successful sports team settle for nothing less than their best so for us anything less than winning a 6N should not be seen as a success.

Sanjuro

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Ireland have never won back to back Slams, unlike Wales (1908 and 1909), England (1913 and 1914, 1923 and 1924, 1991 and 1992) and France (1997 and 1998)

This is a pretty laughable way to try to prove a point. Whatever about going back to pre 2000s to prove a point, going back 110+ years is farcical. May as well have been a different game back then.

Yeah_Right

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

These all just sound like excuses quite frankly, at the end of the day it’s our 23 vs their 23 and the simple question I have is are the Irish coaching team or Ireland as a whole getting the best out of what they have at their disposal, yes or no? If the answer is no which I hope it is this all the excuses above mean absolutely nothing as if we won’t get our own house in order and are already just sitting back and making excuses than we are already ****ed for 2023 regardless of what happens.

I don't think Ireland are getting the best out of what they have at their disposal but live in hope that they can and they will.

Question for you; if Ireland were getting their best out of all the resources they have but England and France were as well, would you expect Ireland to win the 6 Nations? If all 3 of those nations were at their absolute best and so were NZ, Australia and RSA for a RWC where would Ireland finish?

Dubinusa

I think our mindset is that we are good enough to win the 6nations. It has been for sometime now. Even when we don't win, I never expect us to be horsed like we have been recently by England. That's the alarming thing for me. Not firing a shot against the kiwis at the world cup, getting mullered by England and lackluster performances against Georgia and Russia( rwc).
It's the scope of the fall. The complete lack of anything to get into these matches.
I think our players are very good and there are some really top quality, but why the inability to see what's in front of them. At the very least, Farrell should have implemented something other than raining garryowens down on the French. If that's what Catt brings, then... we are fooked.
The goal now should be to hammer the snot out of Italy, beat Scotland and England. Easier said than done, but that should be the end result. I think if we lose to Scotland and England, there might be no wiggle room for Farrell. I truly hope he improves our team and we do get our **** together, but if we're sodomized by England again...

dublin49

apart from tight head would any of team v France get into our 2009 Team,shows IMO the current strength of our team.

Dual wheels

Now that Sexton has confirmed he will be retiring next year it’s time to get real on his replacement

Must love hardship

dublin49 wrote: »

apart from tight head would any of team v France get into our 2009 Team,shows IMO the current strength of our team.

That 2009 team famously didn't have any injuries.

How many were ireland missing v France 6 or 7. And then poor selection of the half backs.

UAEguy2020

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't think Ireland are getting the best out of what they have at their disposal but live in hope that they can and they will.

Question for you; if Ireland were getting their best out of all the resources they have but England and France were as well, would you expect Ireland to win the 6 Nations? If all 3 of those nations were at their absolute best and so were NZ, Australia and RSA for a RWC where would Ireland finish?

Good someone sees what I mean

The reality is at the end of the day it’s Ireland’s best 23 vs England & Frances best 23, it’s not like we are fighting against each other in the world war and we need to call every soldier registered. I would never expect Ireland to win the 6N as there are too many difficult teams to ever have that, I’m talking from a pure mindset perspective, the expectation of I’m a player is we will win the 6N if we are good enough to and anything less should be seen as something to be disappointed about and built on going forward.

Again hard to say as a lot of it comes down to who is best on the day, NZL at their best would be hard to beat but Ireland would probably back themselves against the others. They could finish anywhere on that list as a lot of it would come down to their performance on the day.

My overall point is unless we are whetting the best out of our coaches and players we are in no position to come out and make excuses as that’s just what they are because until we get our house in order what happens on the outside is futile as we will end up flopping in the 6N and RWC anyway.

thomond2006

dublin49 wrote: »

apart from tight head would any of team v France get into our 2009 Team,shows IMO the current strength of our team.

What do you mean, apart from tight head?

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

apart from tight head would any of team v France get into our 2009 Team,shows IMO the current strength of our team.

The 2009 team was in good form, the 2021 is not. That’s a big difference. Looking back Ryan would, Doris would have a good chance, Murray on form would, Robbie Henshaw, an inform Stockdale, Healy in form, possibly Stander. Like I said it’s hard to compare as so many of the current team are bang out of form and you are comparing it to a team that won the slam.

And remember the 2009 slam was won by the smallest of margins

3 of the 5 games had only 1 score in it and 2 games by only 1 and 2 points respectively (England and Wales)

UAEguy2020

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think our mindset is that we are good enough to win the 6nations. It has been for sometime now. Even when we don't win, I never expect us to be horsed like we have been recently by England. That's the alarming thing for me. Not firing a shot against the kiwis at the world cup, getting mullered by England and lackluster performances against Georgia and Russia( rwc).
It's the scope of the fall. The complete lack of anything to get into these matches.
I think our players are very good and there are some really top quality, but why the inability to see what's in front of them. At the very least, Farrell should have implemented something other than raining garryowens down on the French. If that's what Catt brings, then... we are fooked.
The goal now should be to hammer the snot out of Italy, beat Scotland and England. Easier said than done, but that should be the end result. I think if we lose to Scotland and England, there might be no wiggle room for Farrell. I truly hope he improves our team and we do get our **** together, but if we're sodomized by England again...

It’s not just the bad performances that concern me it’s the fact we appear to have learnt nothing from the losses that concern me, all our England losses from Feb 2019 to now have been carbon copies of each other and that I find laughable really at this level.

When you play a kicking game with a running 10 who’s never played with his 9 before and leave a kicking 10 on the bench who regularly plays with his 9 then you have to ask what the hell is going through the selectors minds...

dublin49

Must love hardship wrote: »

That 2009 team famously didn't have any injuries.

How many were ireland missing v France 6 or 7. And then poor selection of the half backs.

Even then,Sexton now wouldnt replace o Gara,O Mahoney wudnt make backrow,maybe Ryan but thats it.We are less of a team player wise than in recent years and we have lost our GOAT Coach but our appetite for success has grown and our expectations are informed by out of date data and need to be more realistic.

Former Former Former

Must love hardship wrote: »

That 2009 team famously didn't have any injuries.

How many were ireland missing v France 6 or 7. And then poor selection of the half backs.

You're suggesting that Carty or Cooney would have made the 2009 team? No, they would not have.