Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sydthebeat · 23-02-2021 11:07pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't think Ireland are getting the best out of what they have at their disposal but live in hope that they can and they will.

Question for you; if Ireland were getting their best out of all the resources they have but England and France were as well, would you expect Ireland to win the 6 Nations? If all 3 of those nations were at their absolute best and so were NZ, Australia and RSA for a RWC where would Ireland finish?

100%

Ireland tend to do well when the other top teams are in a state of flux.... And fair enough, we'll take that.
But when everyone is on an even footing ie RWC time, we tend to struggle

UAEguy2020 · 23-02-2021 11:14pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

100%

Ireland tend to do well when the other top teams are in a state of flux.... And fair enough, we'll take that.
But when everyone is on an even footing ie RWC time, we tend to struggle

But we haven’t been on an even footing at RWC’s either, if we played well and lost out it would be more acceptable.

molloyjh · 23-02-2021 11:18pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

100%

Ireland tend to do well when the other top teams are in a state of flux.... And fair enough, we'll take that.
But when everyone is on an even footing ie RWC time, we tend to struggle

England, France and SA are vastly bigger countries so clearly have huge advantages there. Australia used to, but not so much any more. New Zealand is a bit of an outlier in terms of size given how popular the sport is there. So that's 4 or 5 teams that should be better than us on balance. So we should always struggle to make the top 4. We should be in or around 5th in the world on balance. Which fits with where we are now and where we have been at RWCs generally.

Must love hardship · 23-02-2021 11:24pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

You're suggesting that Carty or Cooney would have made the 2009 team? No, they would not have.

Tomas o leary was the scrum half in 2009 with an aging stringer on the bench. Hardly world beaters. Id have mcgrath or cooney on current form ahead of them. And murray

Paddy J may not be ahead of o gara at the time but paddy Wallace was the covering 10 on the bench. He's easily better than him. Carty too potentially if he got as many caps we'd know for sure..

Must love hardship · 23-02-2021 11:33pm

dublin49 wrote: »

Even then,Sexton now wouldnt replace o Gara,O Mahoney wudnt make backrow,maybe Ryan but thats it.We are less of a team player wise than in recent years and we have lost our GOAT Coach but our appetite for success has grown and our expectations are informed by out of date data and need to be more realistic.

Healy would start ahead of horan
Furlong ahead of Hayes
Ryan ahead of o callaghan
Doris potentially ahead of ferris
Murray ahead of o'leary
Ringrose ahead of D'Arcy
Stockdale potentially ahead of luke fitz.

That team had paddy Wallace covering 10 and 12 and Tom Court covering both props and 35 year old Mal o Kelly on the bench.

Lost Ormond · 23-02-2021 11:33pm

Must love hardship wrote: »

Tomas o leary was the scrum half in 2009 with an aging stringer on the bench. Hardly world beaters. Id have mcgrath or cooney on current form ahead of them.

Paddy Jackson may not be ahead of o gara at the time but paddy Wallace was the covering 10 on the bench. He's easily better than him. Carty too potentially if he got as many caps we'd know for sure..

Tomas O Leary was named in the Lions in 09 so yes he certainly would have been ahead of McGrath, Cooney and Stringer wasnt that old then. Not top top level but far ahead of Luke McGrath and Cooney

aloooof · 23-02-2021 11:35pm

Must love hardship wrote: »

Healy would start ahead of horan
Furlong ahead of Hayes
Ryan ahead of o callaghan
Doris potentially ahead of ferris
Murray ahead of o'leary
Ringrose ahead of D'Arcy
Stockdale potentially ahead of luke fitz.

That team had paddy Wallace covering 10 and 12 and Tom Court covering both props and 35 year old Mal o Kelly on the bench.

Doris would be competing with Heaslip, no? Don't see him getting in ahead of either Heaslip or Ferris anyways tbh.

And Ringrose is a 13, D'arce was a 12 so don't see that happening either.

dublin49 · 23-02-2021 11:36pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

What do you mean, apart from tight head?

I was suggesting Porter /Furlong would force Hayes from 2009 Team but thats the only current player on current form who wud make that team,bit pointless but does demonstrate the relative mediocrity of the current selection.

Former Former Former · 23-02-2021 11:39pm

Must love hardship wrote: »

Tomas o leary was the scrum half in 2009 with an aging stringer on the bench. Hardly world beaters. Id have mcgrath or cooney on current form ahead of them. And murray

Paddy J may not be ahead of o gara at the time but paddy Wallace was the covering 10 on the bench. He's easily better than him. Carty too potentially if he got as many caps we'd know for sure..

TOL was picked for the Lions in 2009. Stringer was only 31 and they had Eoin Reddan as third choice. Cooney would be well out of the picture because that's his level.

Carty is not as good as Paddy Wallace. End of. Not sure where Jackson fits in this debate.

irishbucsfan · 23-02-2021 11:48pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

Carty is not as good as Paddy Wallace.

Carty is far better at 10 than Paddy Wallace was on the odd time he was shoe-horned in to cover there for Ireland. He was never consistently good at 10.

Wallace should be recognised for being the closest thing we had to cover at 10 in those days obviously. A shame he didn't get more opportunities in his natural position.

Must love hardship · 23-02-2021 11:49pm

Former Former Former wrote: »

TOL was picked for the Lions in 2009. Stringer was only 31 and they had Eoin Reddan as third choice. Cooney would be well out of the picture.

Carty is not as good as Paddy Wallace. End of. Not sure where Jackson fits in this debate.

We had about 16 or 17 selected for the lions that year. Not all of them went on to start A test. No chance he would have started ahead of Philips

thomond2006 · 23-02-2021 11:49pm

Must love hardship wrote: »

Furlong ahead of Hayes

dublin49 wrote: »

I was suggesting Porter /Furlong would force Hayes from 2009 Team

Louis Friend · 23-02-2021 11:52pm

There’s the bones of a point there, but hyperbole has taken over. The composite 15 would probably look like this

Kearney
Bowe
O’Driscoll
D’Arcy
Stockdale
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
Wallace
O’Mahony
O’Connell
Ryan
Furlong
Flannery
Healy

So 8 from ‘09 and 7 from now.

dublin49 · 23-02-2021 11:58pm

Louis Friend wrote: »

There’s the bones of a point there, but hyperbole has taken over. The composite 15 would probably look like this

Kearney
Bowe
O’Driscoll
D’Arcy
Stockdale
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
Wallace
O’Mahony
O’Connell
Ryan
Furlong
Flannery
Healy

So 8 from ‘09 and 7 from now.

Sexton & Murray 2018 ,not now,O Mahony instead of Ferris ,no chance,Helay now is no great shakes,My point was our 2021 team,not the players at their individual peaks versus our 2009 team,

Former Former Former · 23-02-2021 11:59pm

Must love hardship wrote: »

We had about 16 or 17 selected for the lions that year. Not all of them went on to start A test. No chance he would have started ahead of Philips

I agree. But being picked for the Lions is still a huge honour.

But you're arguing that Cooney would have been ahead of TOL. He wouldn't. He'd have been fourth or fifth choice for Ireland in 2009, just like he is in 2021.

Must love hardship · 24-02-2021 12:03am

aloooof wrote: »

Doris would be competing with Heaslip, no? Don't see him getting in ahead of either Heaslip or Ferris anyways tbh.

And Ringrose is a 13, D'arce was a 12 so don't see that happening either.

Doris is a more natural 8 but can and was played 6. Injury free ferris would be ahead id agree but sadly we never got to see enough of him.

Ringrose could play anywhere across the back line. But shift o Driscoll to 12 to accommodate ringrose at 13.

To be honest this strick he's a 12 or he only plays 13 holds ireland back.
Look a fickou for France.. mainly a 12. They had no problem playing him on the wing v ireland in last years 6 nations and he chips in with an assist and 3 clean breaks.

Australia too have no problem playing players anywhere across the back line..

We seem to be very risk adverse for this. Does happy a bit at club level but rarely at int level barring 3 injuries during a game a scrumhalf ends up wing or 10.

UAEguy2020 · 24-02-2021 12:04am

molloyjh wrote: »

England, France and SA are vastly bigger countries so clearly have huge advantages there. Australia used to, but not so much any more. New Zealand is a bit of an outlier in terms of size given how popular the sport is there. So that's 4 or 5 teams that should be better than us on balance. So we should always struggle to make the top 4. We should be in or around 5th in the world on balance. Which fits with where we are now and where we have been at RWCs generally.

What part of the size of the country doesn’t determine how good you are at rugby is confusing you?

Like I said before it’s 23 v 23

Not 70M v 7M

UAEguy2020 · 24-02-2021 12:07am

aloooof wrote: »

Doris would be competing with Heaslip, no? Don't see him getting in ahead of either Heaslip or Ferris anyways tbh.

And Ringrose is a 13, D'arce was a 12 so don't see that happening either.

Doris would get in either way, probably at 6. It’s pure nostalgia to think he wouldn’t.

It’s always hard to tell because Darcy had the great job of performing next to BOD, the question is if Henshaw performed outside BOD would we put him at a higher ranking than we do? All I know is once BOD retired Darcy didn’t last too long after.

sydthebeat · 24-02-2021 12:07am

molloyjh wrote: »

England, France and SA are vastly bigger countries so clearly have huge advantages there. Australia used to, but not so much any more. New Zealand is a bit of an outlier in terms of size given how popular the sport is there. So that's 4 or 5 teams that should be better than us on balance. So we should always struggle to make the top 4. We should be in or around 5th in the world on balance. Which fits with where we are now and where we have been at RWCs generally.

Yep Pretty much exactly my original point

Must love hardship · 24-02-2021 12:12am

Former Former Former wrote: »

I agree. But being picked for the Lions is still a huge honour.

But you're arguing that Cooney would have been ahead of TOL. He wouldn't. He'd have been fourth or fifth choice for Ireland in 2009, just like he is in 2021.

He was in good form in 2009. But the scrum half highlight from that campaign will always be stringers pass to o Gara for the drop goal. Some night in Cardiff after..

Stranger things have happened at 9. No lions standouts this year at 9. If ulster had gone well in champions cup cooney could have been selected.

Could the London irish outhalf be picked for the lions hypothetically or would you have to be contracted to a home nation?

Must love hardship · 24-02-2021 12:18am

Louis Friend wrote: »

There’s the bones of a point there, but hyperbole has taken over. The composite 15 would probably look like this

Kearney
Bowe
O’Driscoll
D’Arcy
Stockdale
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
Wallace
O’Mahony
O’Connell
Ryan
Furlong
Flannery
Healy

So 8 from ‘09 and 7 from now.

No project players included.

In 2009 we had none in the starting 15.
2018 we had 2 start most games.. now we could have 5. Maybe thats the reason we are getting progressively worse.

Maybe

Former Former Former · 24-02-2021 12:26am

Louis Friend wrote: »

There’s the bones of a point there, but hyperbole has taken over. The composite 15 would probably look like this

Kearney
Bowe
O’Driscoll
D’Arcy
Stockdale
Sexton
Murray
Heaslip
Wallace
O’Mahony
O’Connell
Ryan
Furlong
Flannery
Healy

So 8 from ‘09 and 7 from now.

In your haste to bang on about hyperbole, you didn't read the post. The question was how many of our team v France would have made the 09 team. None of Furlong, Ryan, Murray, Sexton, POM or Stockdale played against France.

aloooof · 24-02-2021 12:30am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Doris would get in either way, probably at 6. It’s pure nostalgia to think he wouldn’t.

Doris has only had 7 caps. Ferris had his injury issues, but it's a bit premature to think Doris would get in ahead of him, imo. (I absolutely think he has the potential to get there, tho).

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

It’s always hard to tell because Darcy had the great job of performing next to BOD, the question is if Henshaw performed outside BOD would we put him at a higher ranking than we do? All I know is once BOD retired Darcy didn’t last too long after.

It's hardly like D'arcy was still in his prime when Drico retired.

There's far more of a case for Henshaw at 12 over D'Arcy tho than there is for Ringose, or for moving Drico to 12, like the other poster suggested, mind.

aloooof · 24-02-2021 12:38am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What part of the size of the country doesn’t determine how good you are at rugby is confusing you?

Like I said before it’s 23 v 23

Not 70M v 7M

It doesn't solely determine it. But it does have an impact. You seem really dismissive of this, but an example, stretched to the extreme, to illustrate the point.

Say there was a country called TwentyThreeland. Population: 23. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they'd never win a Rugby World Cup.

Louis Friend · 24-02-2021 1:00am

Former Former Former wrote: »

In your haste to bang on about hyperbole, you didn't read the post. The question was how many of our team v France would have made the 09 team. None of Furlong, Ryan, Murray, Sexton, POM or Stockdale played against France.

If you read my post again, you’ll notice that I specifically say “from now”. I didn’t mention the French game, which Sexton, Stockdale, etc didn’t start.

Louis Friend · 24-02-2021 1:01am

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

What part of the size of the country doesn’t determine how good you are at rugby is confusing you?

Like I said before it’s 23 v 23

Not 70M v 7M

What a very strange post.

Of course population, and more importantly playing population are hugely relevant.

Piehead · 24-02-2021 1:09am

Louis Friend wrote: »

What a very strange post.

Of course population, and more importantly playing population are hugely relevant.

Then the Chinese and Indians would win everything by your logic

aloooof · 24-02-2021 1:12am

Piehead wrote: »

Then the Chinese and Indians would win everything by your logic

He said relevant. Not solely relevant.

ersatz · 24-02-2021 1:20am

molloyjh wrote: »

England, France and SA are vastly bigger countries so clearly have huge advantages there. Australia used to, but not so much any more. New Zealand is a bit of an outlier in terms of size given how popular the sport is there. So that's 4 or 5 teams that should be better than us on balance. So we should always struggle to make the top 4. We should be in or around 5th in the world on balance. Which fits with where we are now and where we have been at RWCs generally.

Rugby is huge in NZ but so are lots of other sports. There the top ten schools have produced 25% of all blacks, for the team of us if you exclude overseas players the number is much closer to 80 or even 90%. That's probably the biggest challenge for the national team, how to expand the playing base, and I'm not sure the IRFU/provinces are doing a great job honestly.

A better comparison for Ireland should be Wales rather than Eng/FR/SA. We have almost double the Welsh population and soccer is big there with a few pro teams competing for talented athletes (yes, it's not GAA). Ireland has 20% more rugby players than Wales, their pro teams are poor and the union does not control all of their international players. By any measure we should perform better than Wales but we don't, it's not even close in terms of the record books. Maybe some of our Welsh posters can ponder whether fans and pundits there would have reacted differently to Ireland's recent results against England and the WC capitulation to Japan and NZ had those been a pattern of Welsh performances over a few years. I suspect it would have been more impassioned than the resignation that accompanied those results here.

UAEguy2020 · 24-02-2021 2:11am

aloooof wrote: »

Doris has only had 7 caps. Ferris had his injury issues, but it's a bit premature to think Doris would get in ahead of him, imo. (I absolutely think he has the potential to get there, tho).

It's hardly like D'arcy was still in his prime when Drico retired.

There's far more of a case for Henshaw at 12 over D'Arcy tho than there is for Ringose, or for moving Drico to 12, like the other poster suggested, mind.

Maybe but the way Doris has played so far in his career you’d have to find space for him, got to remember Heaslip was very new to test rugby at that point also and arguably you’d say in his early days Doris was more impressive in his appearances.

True but it’s drop off was almost instant, makes you wonder was BOD key to Darcy being so good at test level. Still a very good player in his day but maybe working alongside BOD bumped him up afew levels than he probably was at. I think Henshaw is all round a better player and would have excelled alongside BOD.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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