Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

D.Q

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

This day in 2007, that game in Croke Park. The actual rugby felt secondary to the event, but it was still an incredible day as an Irish supporter for a whole variety of reasons.

I still re-watch this every once in a while.

Jaysussss those anthems.

bilston

Eod100 wrote: »

Good to see Henderson get 2 year contract extension

https://twitter.com/IrishRugby/status/1364530666424201219

Don't think this one was ever in question, but good to see it confirmed.

Yeah_Right

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Good someone sees what I mean

The reality is at the end of the day it’s Ireland’s best 23 vs England & Frances best 23, it’s not like we are fighting against each other in the world war and we need to call every soldier registered. I would never expect Ireland to win the 6N as there are too many difficult teams to ever have that, I’m talking from a pure mindset perspective, the expectation of I’m a player is we will win the 6N if we are good enough to and anything less should be seen as something to be disappointed about and built on going forward.

Again hard to say as a lot of it comes down to who is best on the day, NZL at their best would be hard to beat but Ireland would probably back themselves against the others. They could finish anywhere on that list as a lot of it would come down to their performance on the day.

My overall point is unless we are whetting the best out of our coaches and players we are in no position to come out and make excuses as that’s just what they are because until we get our house in order what happens on the outside is futile as we will end up flopping in the 6N and RWC anyway.

I think the issue comes down to expectations. I believe that Ireland (at their best in 2021) would lose to NZ, RSA, France and England (at their 2021 best). 50:50 with Australia. Those are my expectations. My hope would be that Ireland beat them all. Except NZ

When you talk about expectations, I think you are talking about the players and coaches? Not the fans and the media? I would assume that any athlete/coach competing at an elite level expects to and has the mindset that they are going to win. Otherwise they probably wouldn't be at that level.

If you believe that the Irish fans and media should be expecting to win the 6 Nations/RWC QFs then you are just setting yourself up for constant heartbreak. Trust me as a North Harbour, Blues and ABs fan (and Liverpool) I know.

UAEguy2020

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think the issue comes down to expectations. I believe that Ireland (at their best in 2021) would lose to NZ, RSA, France and England (at their 2021 best). 50:50 with Australia. Those are my expectations. My hope would be that Ireland beat them all. Except NZ

When you talk about expectations, I think you are talking about the players and coaches? Not the fans and the media? I would assume that any athlete/coach competing at an elite level expects to and has the mindset that they are going to win. Otherwise they probably wouldn't be at that level.

If you believe that the Irish fans and media should be expecting to win the 6 Nations/RWC QFs then you are just setting yourself up for constant heartbreak. Trust me as a North Harbour, Blues and ABs fan (and Liverpool) I know.

It’s hard to gauge how they would do at their best as they have been miles below their best for awhile now. The reality is there isn’t really that much between any of them and a large part of it comes down to form and having a good culture which Ireland sadly have neither. Yes some would be more favored than others but 8 games out of 10 would likely be one score games if both teams showed up. And that’s where expectations come in, you need that winning mentality and not having expectations anything other than what we are at our best capable of will lead us to lose far more often than not.

Yes I am, but maybe the fans should be raising their expectations. How any fan can be satisfied with what we are seeing is embarrassing.

The players should be as anything less than their best should be considered disappointment and if they are good enough to win the championship that should be their expectations. I think that’s a good thing though, that hurt will drive us on to be better and will be better for us as a nation in the long run, it’s having these expectations that have driven us to the standards that have been set over the past few years.

ersatz

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Connacht are doing a lot of excellent work to expand the playing pool and have increased their numbers by a huge amount through getting most schools playing rugby and then getting as many of those kids into clubs to play as well. Number of schools now competing is miles higher than it was before

They need to work to keep these numbers playing into adult rugby though

Ireland doesnt have 20% more adult rugby players than Wales though.

Fair enough on Connacht, but we've been hearing the same form the IRFU for 20 years. Everything is relative I guess, they're a lot better than the FAI!

Numbers wise, according to wikipedia Irl has 3x numbers of registered players Wales has. Adult men - Irl 22408, Wales 25440, so for adults more like 15%.

UAEguy2020

stephen_n wrote: »

Care to explain what you believe that difference is?

Winning a championship the way NZL won the tri nations/rugby championship most years = dominance

Winning the 6N by winning matches by 1 score / >10 points = not dominance.

Obviously some years you will have blow outs in matches but every 6N for the past 10/15 years we all know in the back of our heads there were 4 and sometimes 5 teams that could realistically win the 6N which shows you that there is no dominant team whereas in the RC you always knew that NZL would win it bar an upset, that’s dominance... what you have in the 6N isn’t dominance no matter how hard the media try to spin the narrative.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

The players should be as anything less than their best should be considered disappointment and if they are good enough to win the championship that should be their expectations. I think that’s a good thing though, that hurt will drive us on to be better and will be better for us as a nation in the long run, it’s having these expectations that have driven us to the standards that have been set over the past few years.

There's a conflation between players and fans here, when using words like "We, us" etc.

I absolutely think the players and coaches will have high expectations and set the bar high, but I don't really think fans having high expectations will make much difference whatsoever, one way or another tbh.

jp101

ersatz wrote: »

A better comparison for Ireland should be Wales rather than Eng/FR/SA. We have almost double the Welsh population and soccer is big there with a few pro teams competing for talented athletes (yes, it's not GAA). Ireland has 20% more rugby players than Wales, their pro teams are poor and the union does not control all of their international players. By any measure we should perform better than Wales but we don't, it's not even close in terms of the record books. Maybe some of our Welsh posters can ponder whether fans and pundits there would have reacted differently to Ireland's recent results against England and the WC capitulation to Japan and NZ had those been a pattern of Welsh performances over a few years. I suspect it would have been more impassioned than the resignation that accompanied those results here.

Who would prefer to have a Welsh rugby record for the last 20 years. 5 vs 4 six nations and 3 vs 2 Grand Slams plus 2 World Cup semis vs none. Of course you also have to take the Heineken Cup and Pro whatever results as well.

Former Former Former

jp101 wrote: »

Who would prefer to have a Welsh rugby record for the last 20 years. 5 vs 4 six nations and 3 vs 2 Grand Slams plus 2 World Cup semis vs none. Of course you also have to take the Heineken Cup and Pro whatever results as well.

So it's basically, 2 RWC semi-finals, no Heineken Cups and 6 leagues vs no RWC semi-finals, 6 Heineken Cup wins and 12 leagues?

I'll take the Irish record every day of the week, thanks

penybont exile

Former Former Former wrote: »

So it's basically, 2 RWC semi-finals, no Heineken Cups and 6 leagues vs no RWC semi-finals, 6 Heineken Cup wins and 12 leagues?

I'll take the Irish record every day of the week, thanks

I wouldn't .... and it's four GS not 3.

molloyjh

Former Former Former wrote: »

So it's basically, 2 RWC semi-finals, no Heineken Cups and 6 leagues vs no RWC semi-finals, 6 Heineken Cup wins and 12 leagues?

I'll take the Irish record every day of the week, thanks

Its also worth noting a few other comparisons between Wales and Ireland in the last 20 years.

Ireland have finished ahead of Wales in the 6Ns on 14 occasions in that time period.

Only Wales has been awarded a wooden spoon in that time. On the flip side, if you look at the years each failed to win the Championship, Ireland won 3 Triple Crowns to Wales 0. Not a huge deal, but indicative of how we tended to perform on those years we didn't win.

Ireland finished in the bottom half of the table twice in those 20 years. Wales did 11 times.

In the last 20 years, Wales have won just 4 out of 23 games vs Australia. Thats compared to Irelands 7 wins out of 16. That's a 17% win rate for Wales and a 44% win rate for Ireland. The longest losing streak in that time was 13 games for Wales and 4 games for Ireland.

In the same period, Wales are 5 from 22 vs South Africa (23%) having a 15 game losing streak in that period. Ireland are 6 from 12 (50%) having a 3 game losing streak.

Our record against New Zealand in that time isn't great, but we still won 2 from 18 as opposed to the Welsh 0 from 18.

Ireland have been way more consistent than Wales over the last 20 years at provincial/regional and national level. Wales have been good at getting themselves up for things in spurts, but have little real consistency. Unless of course you look at their record vs SH sides, which is very consistent. But not in a good way.

EDIT: Also worth looking at how many times each side finished in the bottom 2 given that Italy have only placed higher than that once in the 20 years. For Ireland, that's once. For Wales that's 6 times.

I'm not having a go at Wales here btw, just introducing more fact into a discussion that is severely limited in whag it has chosen to look at. Ireland, both at provincial and national level, have had truly great days that seem to be getting lost in the noise. We've twice as many league titles as Wales, we've 6 HEC titles to 0 and from the above we have outperformed Wales at national level more than not in the last 20 years. Thats just objectively true.

ClanofLams

In addition to thinking rwc semi finals is over analysed to death given Ireland have probably been favourites for one/two quarterfinals ever (think they were v Argentina in 2015, though they really shouldn’t have been losing six starters and maybe marginal favourites v Wales in 2011?) I don’t really get the obsession with it.

Would make for a good tournament of course and would be exciting, boost for Irish rugby etc but if someone offered Ireland winning against Argentina in 2015 and losing semi final but not winning the grand slam in 2018, it wouldn’t be much of a choice for me. Likewise would take 2022 grand slam over losing semi final in 2023.

UAEguy2020

That makes our RWC performances and absolute embarrassment, it’s not the fact we have lost the QF but we were WELL short of the standard required to win such a big game. It’s even more embarrassing when you look at even teams like Japan , Scotland etc who actually went down fighting or Argentina who went for it and succeeded whereas we look like we are already boarding the flight home before a ball is kicked. When it came down to it the Irish team failed themselves, the sport and their country and tbh it comes down to more than just the players you have to question what does the preparation consist of as it’s the same screw ups time after time.

UAEguy2020

ClanofLams wrote: »

In addition to thinking rwc semi finals is over analysed to death given Ireland have probably been favourites for one/two quarterfinals ever (think they were v Argentina in 2015, though they really shouldn’t have been losing six starters and maybe marginal favourites v Wales in 2011?) I don’t really get the obsession with it.

Would make for a good tournament of course and would be exciting, boost for Irish rugby etc but if someone offered Ireland winning against Argentina in 2015 and losing semi final but not winning the grand slam in 2018, it wouldn’t be much of a choice for me. Likewise would take 2022 grand slam over losing semi final in 2023.

Or we could be like Wales in 2019 and take both of them... unlike us who took neither.

ClanofLams

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Or we could be like Wales in 2019 and take both of them... unlike us who took neither.

Of course that would be ideal.

I just don’t get the rampant focus on making the final four that exists on here. The reality is for most of their history the Irish rugby team haven’t been a realistic contender to be one of the best four teams in the world and even if they do make semi finals it’s not going to have a transformative affect on Irish rugby.

From ‘87 - ‘03 performed about to their level, over performing to go so close against Australia in ‘91 and under performing to lose to Argentina in ‘99.

Since then ‘07 and ‘19 have been very bad. ‘11 and ‘15 performed to standard I think, given the circumstances and Ireland unlucky not to make last four largely due to injuries in 2015.


The obsession with the last four is bizarre. You don’t win anything making the last four.

aloooof

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

When it came down to it the Irish team failed themselves, the sport and their country

Ah, that's a bit strong, no?? It's not like they've staged a coup or committed treason, like!

molloyjh

aloooof wrote: »

Ah, that's a big strong, no?? It's not like they've staged a coup or committed treason, like!

I think it's statements like those that should be making you consider walking away from the conversation. The word hyperbolic has been used a lot lately, but no doubt it applies to that quoted post in spades.

Lost Ormond

ClanofLams wrote: »

Of course that would be ideal.

I just don’t get the rampant focus on making the final four that exists on here. The reality is for most of their history the Irish rugby team haven’t been a realistic contender to be one of the best four teams in the world and even if they do make semi finals it’s not going to have a transformative affect on Irish rugby.

From ‘87 - ‘03 performed about to their level, over performing to go so close against Australia in ‘91 and under performing to lose to Argentina in ‘99.

Since then ‘07 and ‘19 have been very bad. ‘11 and ‘15 performed to standard I think, given the circumstances and Ireland unlucky not to make last four largely due to injuries in 2015.


The obsession with the last four is bizarre. You don’t win anything making the last four.

Its not so much an obsession with the last 4 but simply winning a knock out game in a world cup. Every time Ireland has played in a game where its win or go home we've went home. It isnt bizarre to be very focused/obsessed on wanting a change. Of course you wont win anything for making the last 4 but last 4 will always be better than last 8.

I do agree about 87 to 03. We were ****e for most of that period and just getting to quarters was about our level.

Ireland haven't had any success in the professional era without an international-quality 10 in place

Other international teams have had the capability to play a game not centred around that fulcrum but it would be quite the sea change indeed for Ireland and is Farrell the man who could achieve that change? probably not on the evidence so far.

Both Sexton (pre 19 version) and ROG were both completely central to the Irish gameplan. ROG was a better place and territory kicker, Sexton was a better playmaker and better defensively.

Can't see Ireland competing for honours in the 6 nations with a faded Sexton and/or a middling option in R Byrne / Burns in the next couple of years. Particularly with France only on an upward curve. Ireland profited from years of frankly incompetent French selection and coaching during the Schmidt era in particular. England not playing great so far this year but they have zero fear of Ireland.

Have to hope that one of the new 10's will get the chance to develop and have the ability to come through - probably going to take until 2023 at this stage.

thomond2006

molloyjh wrote: »

I think it's statements like those that should be making you consider walking away from the conversation. The word hyperbolic has been used a lot lately, but no doubt it applies to that quoted post in spades.

Ireland failed me by not picking John Hayes.

Must love hardship

So anyone hazard a guess at the team for the weekend.

I think we will have a couple of changes and it will be something like:

Healy
Kelleher
Furlong
Ryan
Henderson
Bierne
VDF
Conan

Murray
Sexton
Lowe
Henshaw
Ringrose
Larmour
Keenan

Herring
Kilcoyne
Porter
Ruddock
Stander
Casey
Byrne
Daly/farrell

joseywhales

glasso wrote: »

Ireland haven't had any success in the professional era without an international-quality 10 in place

Other international teams have had the capability to play a game not centred around that fulcrum but it would be quite the sea change indeed for Ireland and is Farrell the man who could achieve that change? probably not on the evidence so far.

Both Sexton (pre 19 version) and ROG were both completely central to the Irish gameplan. ROG was a better place and territory kicker, Sexton was a better playmaker and better defensively.

Can't see Ireland competing for honours in the 6 nations with a faded Sexton and/or a middling option in R Byrne / Burns in the next couple of years. Particularly with France only on an upward curve. Ireland profited from years of frankly incompetent French selection and coaching during the Schmidt era in particular. England not playing great so far this year but they have zero fear of Ireland.

Have to hope that one of the new 10's will get the chance to develop and have the ability to come through - probably going to take until 2023 at this stage.

I think, somehow, we are overlooking covid a bit here. It was a cluster-****, we have jackson gone and carbery seriously injured but with covid we missed out on vital gametime at competitive level(european) which would have given the provinces an opportunity to test their young tens, one might have broken through to test level. We really got exposed from multiple directions.

A year or two can be a long time in sport though, theres still hope of a inexperienced ten being ready for the world cup and being in top form. We would definitely take that.

glasso

glasso wrote: »

Ireland haven't had any success in the professional era without an international-quality 10 in place

Other international teams have had the capability to play a game not centred around that fulcrum but it would be quite the sea change indeed for Ireland and is Farrell the man who could achieve that change? probably not on the evidence so far.

Both Sexton (pre 19 version) and ROG were both completely central to the Irish gameplan. ROG was a better place and territory kicker, Sexton was a better playmaker and better defensively.

Can't see Ireland competing for honours in the 6 nations with a faded Sexton and/or a middling option in R Byrne / Burns in the next couple of years. Particularly with France only on an upward curve. Ireland profited from years of frankly incompetent French selection and coaching during the Schmidt era in particular. England not playing great so far this year but they have zero fear of Ireland.

Have to hope that one of the new 10's will get the chance to develop and have the ability to come through - probably going to take until 2023 at this stage.

Curious... which teams did you have in mind?

TRC10

Team I'd love to see

15-Keenan
14-Larmour
13-Ringrose
12-Henshaw
11-Earls
10-Sexton
9-Casey
1-Healy
2-Kelleher
3-Furlong
4-Henderson
5-Ryan
6-Beirne
7-van der Flier
8-Conan

16-Herring
17-Porter
18-O'Toole
19-Ruddock
20-Connors
21-Murray
22-Burns
23-Daly

Dubinusa

I would much prefer us getting to a rwc sf, than win a 6nations. I think if we got to a semi, we could possibly go on to the final. I think we should always have the mindset that we can beat anyone, anywhere and at anytime.

ionadnapokot

penybont exile wrote: »

I wouldn't .... and it's four GS not 3.

Grand Slams & RWC are the ultimate criteria for measuring a nations success as far as im concerned.

As much enjoyment as i got from Irish provinces in European club rugby the abject failures from Ireland at the RWC cut vey deep.

In a heartbeat i would swap every club trophy Irish provinces ever won for that Welsh record.

1. England: 2 GS & 1 RWC Win & 2 RWC 2nd's
2. France: 3 GS & 1 RWC 2nd & 2 RWC SF's
3. Wales: 4 GS & 2 RWC SFs
4. Ireland: 2 GS & 0 RWC SF

Podge_irl

Couldn't care less about having SF appearances as opposed to QF ones to be honest. There is the mild irritation that we have never won a QF, but aside from that who cares.

I'd take 4 GS over 2, but I am perfectly content with 4 championships over the last 11 and thoroughly enjoyed the AB wins and tour win in Aus. I wouldn't want to swap our international record for Wales full stop, never mind including the provincial element into it.

bilston

Dubinusa wrote: »

I would much prefer us getting to a rwc sf, than win a 6nations. I think if we got to a semi, we could possibly go on to the final. I think we should always have the mindset that we can beat anyone, anywhere and at anytime.

I'd rather we had the mindset of trying to win a WC than reach a semi final. I used to find it ridiculous that the IRFU's target was to reach a WC semi final. Maybe if we targeted winning a WC we'd find reaching a semi final a bit easier.

I'd also take winning silverware over making the semi finals of anything.

This obsession of reaching the WC semi finals has replaced our previous obsession with beating NZ.

Sure it would be great to win a WC Q/F, but if we ultimately fall in the semi final then I don't see how that is better than winning a 6Ns title.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Curious... which teams did you have in mind?

I'd have world cup 2015 Australia with Gitau at 12 in mind as an example. They had Foley at 10 but the whole gameplan certainly wasn't built around him.

New Zealand also at a lot of times - they have licence and ability (and a culture really) for an instinctive game in attack and certainly don't play relatively regimented 10-centric styles like Ireland would have for most of the last 20 years.

AbusesToilets

We've never even performed to a decent standard in a knock out game. Our best performances were against Australia in 91, and the 20 or so mins after Luke came on vs Argentina. Outside of that, we've been abject. I can take losing in a battling performance, but to have never even been at the races in all that time stings.