Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

We've never even performed to a decent standard in a knock out game. Our best performances were against Australia in 91, and the 20 or so mins after Luke came on vs Argentina.

Australia 2011. France 2015.

AbusesToilets

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Australia 2011. France 2015.

Knockout games....

AbusesToilets

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Knockout games....

Whoops - misread that.

I would say that Argentina switched off a bit during the second half and turned it back on when they needed too, we blew ourselves out getting back into the game and we're on the back foot the last quarter. Wouldn't call it much of a performance.

Agree re 91 - had the game won and lost concentration.

AbusesToilets

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Whoops - misread that.

I would say that Argentina switched off a bit during the second half and turned it back on when they needed too, we blew ourselves out getting back into the game and we're on the back foot the last quarter. Wouldn't call it much of a performance.

Agree re 91 - had the game won and lost concentration.

Mad that an amateur team has been the best accounting of ourselves

Dubinusa

bilston wrote: »

I'd rather we had the mindset of trying to win a WC than reach a semi final. I used to find it ridiculous that the IRFU's target was to reach a WC semi final. Maybe if we targeted winning a WC we'd find reaching a semi final a bit easier.

I'd also take winning silverware over making the semi finals of anything.

This obsession of reaching the WC semi finals has replaced our previous obsession with beating NZ.

Sure it would be great to win a WC Q/F, but if we ultimately fall in the semi final then I don't see how that is better than winning a 6Ns title.

Right. I would think that we should set our sights higher. The obsession is imo, we've been a busted ravioli in all world cups. Same uninspired dogcrap. Same excuses and always a clinical review that means nothing.
I think we can win the world cup. With the right factors falling into place.

Dual wheels

Must love hardship wrote: »

Healy would start ahead of horan
Furlong ahead of Hayes
Ryan ahead of o callaghan
Doris potentially ahead of ferris
Murray ahead of o'leary
Ringrose ahead of D'Arcy
Stockdale potentially ahead of luke fitz.

That team had paddy Wallace covering 10 and 12 and Tom Court covering both props and 35 year old Mal o Kelly on the bench.

Ah Tom court where will he spring from next

Lost Ormond

bilston wrote: »

I'd rather we had the mindset of trying to win a WC than reach a semi final. I used to find it ridiculous that the IRFU's target was to reach a WC semi final. Maybe if we targeted winning a WC we'd find reaching a semi final a bit easier.

I'd also take winning silverware over making the semi finals of anything.

This obsession of reaching the WC semi finals has replaced our previous obsession with beating NZ.

Sure it would be great to win a WC Q/F, but if we ultimately fall in the semi final then I don't see how that is better than winning a 6Ns title.

The focus on reaching a world cup semi final has just went further to the top now that we have beaten New Zealand. It hasnt replaced it as its been there for last 10 years and more.
Its great to talk about winning a world cup and saying we should have a mindset to do that but until we can consistently prove we can any knock out games we should focus on that first. No team has really went not winning a knock out game to winning the entire tournament straight away. You need to build off it.
I think reaching a semi final and then maybe winning the 3rd/4th playoff is great than a 6 nations title as it can involve beating 2 maybe even 3 of top sides in world in a tournament which is something we've never done

Dubinusa wrote: »

Right. I would think that we should set our sights higher. The obsession is imo, we've been a busted ravioli in all world cups. Same uninspired dogcrap. Same excuses and always a clinical review that means nothing.
I think we can win the world cup. With the right factors falling into place.

Not much point in setting sights much higher if you cant consistently make lower levels. Great to talk about reaching a final/winning the world cup if you consistently fail at first step of knockouts
You say always a clinical review that means nothing well what do you propose then?
And what are all these right factors that must fall in place then?

Thrashssacre

Why are we all jealous of Wales all of a sudden, there club rugby is in a shambles, fans of there or the four Irish provinces have had a better 20 year's then even the best Welsh region. They've gotten a couple more grand slams them us which is too say Two happy month's in a 12 month year, happenings maybe once every 4/5 year, yes they've had slightly better world cups but it is only slightly. Most Irish cans have been watching More much consistent and impressive results and performances in that time.

TRC10

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Why are we all jealous of Wales all of a sudden, there club rugby is in a shambles, fans of there or the four Irish provinces have had a better 20 year's then even the best Welsh region. They've gotten a couple more grand slams them us which is too say Two happy month's in a 12 month year, happenings maybe once every 4/5 year, yes they've had slightly better world cups but it is only slightly. Most Irish cans have been watching More much consistent and impressive results and performances in that time.

Nobody is jealous. I think the original point was "stop making excuses for why we have never won a knockout game at a world cup, because Wales have done it in 2 out of the last 3". The fact that we fancy ourselves as one of the biggest rugby nations and yet have never gotten past the last 8 in a tournament that only 4 countries have ever won is frankly embarrassing. There is no reason why we cant do it and making excuses won't help us.

The fact that we have outperformed Wales in almost every other aspect only strengthens the point.

bayern

IRELAND (possible) v Italy: Hugo Keenan; Keith Earls or Jordan Larmour, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, James Lowe; Johnny Sexton (capt), Jamison Gibson-Park; David Kilcoyne, Rónan Kelleher, Tadhg Furlong; Iain Henderson, James Ryan; Tadhg Beirne, Will Connors, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Cian Healy, Andrew Porter, Ryan Baird, Jack Conan, Craig Casey, Billy Burns, Earls or Larmour.

dublin49

TRC10 wrote: »

Nobody is jealous. I think the original point was "stop making excuses for why we have never won a knockout game at a world cup, because Wales have done it in 2 out of the last 3". The fact that we fancy ourselves as one of the biggest rugby nations and yet have never gotten past the last 8 in a tournament that only 4 countries have ever won is frankly embarrassing. There is no reason why we cant do it and making excuses won't help us.

The fact that we have outperformed Wales in almost every other aspect only strengthens the point.

Well we tend to go out to Tri nation teams and Wales beat 2 6 nations teams to get to their semi finals.

UAEguy2020

dublin49 wrote: »

Well we tend to go out to Tri nation teams and Wales beat 2 6 nations teams to get to their semi finals.

Except we played dog**** in all of them

Japan & Scotland put in more of a performance than we did which is a travesty on our part.

sydthebeat

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Japan & Scotland put in more of a performance than we did which is a travesty on our part.

Is that the same Scotland that we beat 27 - 3?

Yep.... They should be proud and we should be embarrassed...... Yeah...... OK

Must love hardship

bayern wrote: »

IRELAND (possible) v Italy: Hugo Keenan; Keith Earls or Jordan Larmour, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, James Lowe; Johnny Sexton (capt), Jamison Gibson-Park; David Kilcoyne, Rónan Kelleher, Tadhg Furlong; Iain Henderson, James Ryan; Tadhg Beirne, Will Connors, CJ Stander.

Replacements: Rob Herring, Cian Healy, Andrew Porter, Ryan Baird, Jack Conan, Craig Casey, Billy Burns, Earls or Larmour.

Murray hamstring again?
Maybe they should have given him another week off and rested it so he'd be 100% for Scotland and brought in cooney.

At this rate Gibson Park will have more starts for ireland than h Cup starts.

stephen_n

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Winning a championship the way NZL won the tri nations/rugby championship most years = dominance

Winning the 6N by winning matches by 1 score / >10 points = not dominance.

Obviously some years you will have blow outs in matches but every 6N for the past 10/15 years we all know in the back of our heads there were 4 and sometimes 5 teams that could realistically win the 6N which shows you that there is no dominant team whereas in the RC you always knew that NZL would win it bar an upset, that’s dominance... what you have in the 6N isn’t dominance no matter how hard the media try to spin the narrative.

Ah I see, so unless you’re New Zealand you aren’t dominant. Using the All Blacks as bench mark is pretty much pointless. Saying that and five teams could realistically win it in the final week is pretty fanciful in most years. There have only been two occasions in the last 20 years more than three teams could win the competition in the last day. Pretty much every year that France or England don’t win it, they’re in the runner up spot. By any measure they dominate the competition. If you can’t see how more players and more professional clubs leads to stronger international teams. It’s because you don’t want to.

UAEguy2020

stephen_n wrote: »

Ah I see, so unless you’re New Zealand you aren’t dominant. Using the All Blacks as bench mark is pretty much pointless. Saying that and five teams could realistically win it in the final week is pretty fanciful in most years. There have only been two occasions in the last 20 years more than three teams could win the competition in the last day. Pretty much every year that France or England don’t win it, they’re in the runner up spot. By any measure they dominate the competition. If you can’t see how more players and more professional clubs leads to stronger international teams. It’s because you don’t want to.

You see the fact you have to explain it shows they aren’t dominant.
Ahem forgot about 2020 I see.

Question : is it 12-14 professional club v 4 or is it 23 players v 23 players?

If that’s the case why don’t they dominate? If that was the case they would dominate.

stephen_n

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

You see the fact you have to explain it shows they aren’t dominant.
Ahem forgot about 2020 I see.

Question : is it 12-14 professional club v 4 or is it 23 players v 23 players?

If that’s the case why don’t they dominate? If that was the case they would dominate.

They do dominate but since you won’t accept the factual evidence of that. Then there is little point in discussing it. You can go cuddle your strawman, it might keep you warm.

theVersatile

Tracy has JVDF starting instead of Connors

UAEguy2020

stephen_n wrote: »

They do dominate but since you won’t accept the factual evidence of that. Then there is little point in discussing it. You can go cuddle your strawman, it might keep you warm.

France + England combined = 4 6N titles
Ireland = 3 6N titles

In the last decade



In which world is that domination?

Ah see you are picking up your bat and leaving as you can’t back up any of your arguments.

TRC10

dublin49 wrote: »

Well we tend to go out to Tri nation teams and Wales beat 2 6 nations teams to get to their semi finals.

What's your point? 2 of the last 3 were games we should have won and we choked. And even in the one we shouldnt have one, we rolled over and had our tummies tickled. But no it's fine because a few other countries have more playing numbers.

Ardillaun

Deleted User wrote: »

Whoops - misread that.

Agree re 91 - had the game won and lost concentration.

I was on an exercise machine when Hamilton went over, and almost fell off it. Having been abroad without Irish telly for 5 years, I don’t think I even knew who Keyes was before the WC. Credit must also go to Oz, esp. Lynagh, for keeping their cool and coming back. What a back line they had.

Ardillaun

Wales show us what we could do at a World Cup. We’re competitive with them everywhere else and it’s not like they’re not trying in those matches. Once you get to a semi, there’s some chance of winning the whole kit and caboodle; red cards can appear and the other team might have just played the All Blacks.

irishbucsfan

Ardillaun wrote: »

Wales show us what we could do at a World Cup. We’re competitive with them everywhere else and it’s not like they’re not trying in those matches. Once you get to a semi, there’s some chance of winning the whole kit and caboodle; red cards can appear and the other team might have just played the All Blacks.

Wales have literally just won one more game than us at World Cups. They haven't even made a final. They have won ZERO world cups.

The obsession with getting to semi finals is so mad to me. Getting to a semi final in a knockout competition is BARELY better than getting to a quarter final.

If Ireland were in Wales' position, Irish fans would just moan that we can only get to semi finals of big competitions and we'll never make a final.

ionadnapokot

I might be late to this but Carbery is back!!
On the bench tomorrow v Cardiff
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro14/joey-carbery-set-for-munster-return-against-cardiff-on-friday-1.4494253

Best news in Irish rugby for.....12 months+

dublin49

TRC10 wrote: »

What's your point? 2 of the last 3 were games we should have won and we choked. And even in the one we shouldnt have one, we rolled over and had our tummies tickled. But no it's fine because a few other countries have more playing numbers.

The top 4 teams in world Rugby are generally NZ ,SA,AUS,and ENG,we have proved we can beat all these on one off occasions,at World cups their greater panel strength comes into play much more than in one off matches.I agree we missed great chances in 1991 & 2011 ,and I would have expected us to sneak through at least once in the other 7 WCs but in my mind we are rarely if ever a top 4 team and therefore its not a disaster if we don't beat our seeding.

Yeah_Right

molloyjh wrote: »

Its also worth noting a few other comparisons between Wales and Ireland in the last 20 years.

Ireland have finished ahead of Wales in the 6Ns on 14 occasions in that time period.

Only Wales has been awarded a wooden spoon in that time. On the flip side, if you look at the years each failed to win the Championship, Ireland won 3 Triple Crowns to Wales 0. Not a huge deal, but indicative of how we tended to perform on those years we didn't win.

Ireland finished in the bottom half of the table twice in those 20 years. Wales did 11 times.

In the last 20 years, Wales have won just 4 out of 23 games vs Australia. Thats compared to Irelands 7 wins out of 16. That's a 17% win rate for Wales and a 44% win rate for Ireland. The longest losing streak in that time was 13 games for Wales and 4 games for Ireland.

In the same period, Wales are 5 from 22 vs South Africa (23%) having a 15 game losing streak in that period. Ireland are 6 from 12 (50%) having a 3 game losing streak.

Our record against New Zealand in that time isn't great, but we still won 2 from 18 as opposed to the Welsh 0 from 18.

Ireland have been way more consistent than Wales over the last 20 years at provincial/regional and national level. Wales have been good at getting themselves up for things in spurts, but have little real consistency. Unless of course you look at their record vs SH sides, which is very consistent. But not in a good way.

EDIT: Also worth looking at how many times each side finished in the bottom 2 given that Italy have only placed higher than that once in the 20 years. For Ireland, that's once. For Wales that's 6 times.

I'm not having a go at Wales here btw, just introducing more fact into a discussion that is severely limited in whag it has chosen to look at. Ireland, both at provincial and national level, have had truly great days that seem to be getting lost in the noise. We've twice as many league titles as Wales, we've 6 HEC titles to 0 and from the above we have outperformed Wales at national level more than not in the last 20 years. Thats just objectively true.

Those are some very interesting numbers. Thanks for putting that together. I believe that in that timeframe, Wales have also lost to Fiji and Samoa in Cardiff and maybe at a RWC. It must have been some rollercoaster ride for Welsh fans over the last 20 years. Personally I think I would prefer Ireland's consistency.

penybont exile

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Those are some very interesting numbers. Thanks for putting that together. I believe that in that timeframe, Wales have also lost to Fiji and Samoa in Cardiff and maybe at a RWC. It must have been some rollercoaster ride for Welsh fans over the last 20 years. Personally I think I would prefer Ireland's consistency.

Far more fun on the rollercoaster .....

UAEguy2020

The big issue at RWC’s is clearly the top 2 inches. When you look at Wales for example they don’t do things any differently to what they would do in normal circumstances, in every World Cup since 2007 if anything they upped the ante once they got to the final, yes probably underperformed in the 2019 QF but they actually found a way to win.

You would argue the way Ireland have played in each QF performance would they have beaten any of the other QF’s opposition if they were up against them?

UAEguy2020

sydthebeat wrote: »

Is that the same Scotland that we beat 27 - 3?

Yep.... They should be proud and we should be embarrassed...... Yeah...... OK

And yet were able to perform the way they did v Australia in 2015 and nearly beat them if it was for that controversial moment at the end...

awec

AbusesToilets wrote: »

We've never even performed to a decent standard in a knock out game. Our best performances were against Australia in 91, and the 20 or so mins after Luke came on vs Argentina. Outside of that, we've been abject. I can take losing in a battling performance, but to have never even been at the races in all that time stings.

Our RWC record is hopeless, there is no point in us trying to convince ourselves otherwise, or even worse trying to convince ourselves that it doesn't really matter anyway cause sure we've won 12 leagues. I would gladly never have an irish team even reach a league knockout game ever again (honestly who really cares) if it somehow magically improved our world cup record.

Wales are better than us at World Cups. They are also worse than we are at times. While we are more consistent, this also comes with the unfortunate caveat that we are consistently rubbish in the biggest games.