Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Dubinusa

salmocab wrote: »

Like when Park was eligible for a whole year before getting a cap? Or Aki not even making the bench currently and I think he’s on a central contract too another of your beliefs about unfair selections.
It’s utter nonsense the coaches pick whoever they think they should for a given game now you can certainly argue against some of the selections but they aren’t based on where they are from.

No issue with JGP. He's been good. It's worth realizing that he's in a battle with Luke to be Leinster's 9. I would prefer Marmion or Cooney. But I think JGP is doing fine.
Stander has been our most consistent player for years now. I think Aki is also quality. I've no problem with project players. If they are clearly performing, consistent and add to the side, well grand.
Lowe is far from grand. He is struggling a little and I think that he's not as good as Conway or Stockdale. Like Stockdale, he suffers from tackleitis, or the inability to tackle.
As far a central contracts go, I think the players on the contracts are given a bit of leeway. That means all the centrally contracted players. Some central contracted lads are not or have not been better than others, i.e Murray for yonks, Healy currently and even Earls. Yet, they are selected. It's just my opinion and I could be wrong. It's rare, but possible!

DGRulz

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Kelleher had a bit of a breakthrough performance yesterday. His pass back to Sexton for Connor's first try showed real rugby IQ.

Any word on injuries as Henshaw, Larmour and Kelleher leaved the field early?

Think Farrell said in the post match presser that Larmour was a hip-flexer and just precautionary, Kelleher was a dead calf, Kilcoyne failed his HIA but "was in good spirits" can't remember any mention of Henshaw.

salmocab

Dubinusa wrote: »

No issue with JGP. He's been good. It's worth realizing that he's in a battle with Luke to be Leinster's 9. I would prefer Marmion or Cooney. But I think JGP is doing fine.
Stander has been our most consistent player for years now. I think Aki is also quality. I've no problem with project players. If they are clearly performing, consistent and add to the side, well grand.
Lowe is far from grand. He is struggling a little and I think that he's not as good as Conway or Stockdale. Like Stockdale, he suffers from tackleitis, or the inability to tackle.
As far a central contracts go, I think the players on the contracts are given a bit of leeway. That means all the centrally contracted players. Some central contracted lads are not or have not been better than others, i.e Murray for yonks, Healy currently and even Earls. Yet, they are selected. It's just my opinion and I could be wrong. It's rare, but possible!

It’s not rare at all

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised. IF it's between Henderson/Beirne/Ryan then there's going to be a quality player unlucky to be on the bench regardless of what the selection is. But they're quite varied in what they bring so could completely come down to a tactical decision.

Pretty much. It would cause a lot of upset (and I don't think it will happen) but I'd move Henderson to the bench and let him off the leash like a demented beast in the second half.

As it stands, I think Farrell is likely to go with the exact same pack against Scotland. Healy to come back in perhaps. I think we'll find it much tougher going though.

I'd expect a lot of the bench to remain the same. Conan has done enough to get himself into the picture and offers more impact than VDF. Baird is an interesting one. Serious energy from the bench also and, if he's in the 19 jersey, you could accommodate VDF on the bench due to the versatility available.

Water John

Hard choice between POM and Will Connors for No 7. Even though I'm from Munster I'd tip Connors. The Scots will always be scrapping on the ground and you need a nearly pure No 7 against them. Healy should not be starting.
BTW if you are a wing or full back and not the greatest tackler, it's more important to slowdown your opposite number and let the cavalry arrive, above all don't fall off the tackle. ROG couldn't tackle but always stood up.

Former Former Former

Water John wrote: »

Hard choice between POM and Will Connors for No 7. Even though I'm from Munster I'd tip Connors. The Scots will always be scrapping on the ground and you need a nearly pure No 7 against them. Healy should not be starting.
BTW if you are a wing or full back and not the greatest tackler, it's more important to slowdown your opposite number and let the cavalry arrive, above all don't fall off the tackle. ROG couldn't tackle but always stood up.

POM still suspended for Scotland

Bluwave

Water John wrote: »

Hard choice between POM and Will Connors for No 7. Even though I'm from Munster I'd tip Connors. The Scots will always be scrapping on the ground and you need a nearly pure No 7 against them. Healy should not be starting.
BTW if you are a wing or full back and not the greatest tackler, it's more important to slowdown your opposite number and let the cavalry arrive, above all don't fall off the tackle. ROG couldn't tackle but always stood up.

ROG wasn’t a winger

Water John

Bluwave wrote: »

ROG wasn’t a winger

Sort of aware of that. The point is equally valid, for 9,10,11,14 & 15.
Really wonder how Zebo would have fared if he'd stayed? Seen him a few times zigzagging to slow down an opponent, buy time if it's available.

Dubinusa

salmocab wrote: »

It’s not rare at all

Yes it is! Damn you, you heathen!!!

Dubinusa

It's hard to tell if Connors has usurped VDF? I do prefer VDF, but Connors has been impressive.
Jordi Murphy has been great recently also. Although, I think we'd have to have a load of injuries before he's getting a call.

Louis Friend

Water John wrote: »

Sort of aware of that. The point is equally valid, for 9,10,11,14 & 15.
Really wonder how Zebo would have fared if he'd stayed? Seen him a few times zigzagging to slow down an opponent, buy time if it's available.

It’s not really.

The backrow and inside centre can help out if the outhalf has saloon door arms.

But if a winger can’t tackle, the team will ship tries.

Must love hardship

DGRulz wrote: »

Think Farrell said in the post match presser that Larmour was a hip-flexer and just precautionary, Kelleher was a dead calf, Kilcoyne failed his HIA but "was in good spirits" can't remember any mention of Henshaw.

Early injury update yesterday evening was..

Jordan Larmour – Tightness in his hip flexor

Dave Kilcoyne - Failed his HIA

Ronan Kelleher – Dead calf

Tadhg Furlong – Went over on his ankle

Hopefully Furlong isn't too bad and not ligaments on the same leg that he had the calf injury on that kept him out for almost a year.

Will he interesting to see who gets released for the interpros next weekend.

Would love to see Ross byrne and Billy burns go head to head.

Also interesting does Murray come straight back in v Scotland after not playing for 5 weeks or so??

Would also love to see gpark v cooney and winner gets the nod for Scotland game but if gpark gets released by ireland id say leinster would still start mcgrath as he is the superior player.

theVersatile

Few in the match thread post game debating whether or not Beirne had that much of an impact at the breakdown.

The stats are telling:

Source: https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/match-data-downloads-2021/

leakyboots

theVersatile wrote: »

Few in the match thread post game debating whether or not Beirne had that much of an impact at the breakdown.

The stats are telling:

Source: https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/match-data-downloads-2021/

No, those were all Connors you see

VANG1

Lucky we’re not England fans when you see the abuse they are getting. Life is very fickle, it’s sport and when you see death threats you really wonder what is going on in some people’s minds.

sydthebeat

I don't believe any of these online threats etc are made by any real "fans".

I believe social media's anonymity gives licence to these people to abuse all cohorts of public life, regardless of the sport / politics / celebrity etc.

Its the same people abusing sarah mcloughlin that would have abused Caroline flack. Social media's inability to moderate itself allows this to happen. More people should do what Ian Wright did

errlloyd

theVersatile wrote: »

Few in the match thread post game debating whether or not Beirne had that much of an impact at the breakdown.

The stats are telling:

Source: https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/match-data-downloads-2021/

He's top of arrivals for both our rucks and their rucks. But to be fair, he's been picked to do that job, and it's the job that has been assigned to him. So it'd be fairly shocking if he wasn't there.

Maybe worth noting that our ruck speed was actually slower than Italy, so potentially an indication our approach to the breakdown wasn't all that.

Stout Warrior

theVersatile wrote: »

Few in the match thread post game debating whether or not Beirne had that much of an impact at the breakdown.

The stats are telling:

Source: https://www.sixnationsrugby.com/match-data-downloads-2021/

Not bad but simply arriving at the ruck wouldn’t be anything to back up your point of his excelling at the breakdown. Anyone can arrive at the breakdown but to clear it out dominantly would be how I and coaches would judge it. He’s only starting out at 6 and he has ticked the box in terms of meeting his stats requirements but rugby is a game that can’t be played purely on stats. The type of clear out would be much more important and I didn’t see any dominant clear outs by Beirne.

theVersatile

Stout Warrior wrote: »

Not bad but simply arriving at the ruck wouldn’t be anything to back up your point of his excelling at the breakdown. Anyone can arrive at the breakdown but to clear it out dominantly would be how I and coaches would judge it. He’s only starting out at 6 and he has ticked the box in terms of meeting his stats requirements but rugby is a game that can’t be played purely on stats. The type of clear out would be much more important and I didn’t see any dominant clear outs by Beirne.

He's on top of the "clean outs" with 12...?

Stout Warrior

theVersatile wrote: »

He's on top of the "clean outs" with 12...?

But were they dominant. Even if they were I think he lacks the heft to lay down markers at breakdown time. He often comes off worse in contact and gets slammed backwards. Again stats can paint a false picture and I think you’re clutching at straws to try and paint one picture when another more realistic picture is the truth of the matter

Bazzo

The notion that Beirne is too small and gets physically dominated is fairly daft. He might be very marginally small for an international lock but he's still probably bigger than all but 1/2 or at a push 3 opposition players.

theVersatile

Stout Warrior wrote: »

But were they dominant. Even if they were I think he lacks the heft to lay down markers at breakdown time. He often comes off worse in contact and gets slammed backwards. Again stats can paint a false picture and I think you’re clutching at straws to try and paint one picture when another more realistic picture is the truth of the matter

I think clear outs by their nature are dominant - mind I'd have to ask an AWS/Stats Perform staffer for a proper definition. Like as far as I know, it involves actively ejecting someone from a ruck - unless your definition of dominant is "he dislocated the lad's shoulder".

I think you've a preconceived notion that Beirne is too small for the international game - even though back to back MOTM performances against Wales and France (yes I know he didn't actually get it v Wales ; Wyn Jones did, but let's be real) put that very quickly to bed.

Like them or not, stats have a place in the modern game and are a very good indicator of performance. And everybody gets smashed once in a while - CJ got put on his arse - I don't that makes him too weak for international rugby. I don't think Beirne getting monstered is a consistent issue - but I'm not going to deny it happens at all; it does absolutely. I just think it's overblown.

sydthebeat

Bazzo wrote: »

The notion that Beirne is too small and gets physically dominated is fairly daft. He might be very marginally small for an international lock but he's still probably bigger than all but 1/2 or at a push 3 opposition players.

agreed

he may be a "rangy" type of a player but hes certainly not lacking in base power.
the only time ive seen him in any way "slammed back" is when hes been double tackled... and the majority of players will have the same outcome in those situations.

hes a player who uses his footwork to gain the line rather than raw power

Former Former Former

Bazzo wrote: »

The notion that Beirne is too small and gets physically dominated is fairly daft. He might be very marginally small for an international lock but he's still probably bigger than all but 1/2 or at a push 3 opposition players.

Yeah but is he bulky enough to drive behind the tighthead in a scrum? If you're looking at partners for Ryan, won't there be a temptation to go for a heftier lad? Works OK at Munster when he'd be paired with Kleyn and probably Snyman next season.

So he might be better suited at 6, from a physical perspective anyway.

aloooof

Stout Warrior wrote: »

But were they dominant. Even if they were I think he lacks the heft to lay down markers at breakdown time. He often comes off worse in contact and gets slammed backwards. Again stats can paint a false picture and I think you’re clutching at straws to try and paint one picture when another more realistic picture is the truth of the matter

Beirne was perfectly fine against Italy imo. But he was excellent against both Wales and France.

If he gets selected against Scotland or England, he'll be there on merit, imo. If he misses out, he'll be unlucky to miss out, but will still be an excellent sub. And I think all of that applies whether he plays at second row or 6.

Why can we not just be happy that one of our players is enjoying a spell of good form, rather than dismissing things as "clutching at straws" etc?

aloooof

Former Former Former wrote: »

Yeah but is he bulky enough to drive behind the tighthead in a scrum? If you're looking at partners for Ryan, won't there be a temptation to go for a heftier lad.

So he might be better suited at 6, from a physical perspective anyway.

I can see the point, but iirc our scrum did quite against France and even Wales, when we were down to 7 for the majority of the gam . We seemed to manage reasonably well (tho I seem to recall Henshaw joining on occasion also).

Jump_In_Jack

Had a quick look at the stats, and without watching the game back to go into further depth, the stats would seem to support that Beirne was the most prominent Irish player at getting to rucks, and was the best lineout operator on the day, and was the most effective carrier in terms of carrying distance per carry and also line breaks and defenders beaten.

Wouldn't get carried away with that match at all, as Italy weren't good enough to put much pressure on Ireland, but Beirne did well enough to be a worthy recipient of the POTM award.

FWIW, I had thought Will Connors with 2 tries and such a high tackle count and generally being busy and linking with the backs, would also have been a worthy choice.

Now, just need to decide what type of players will complement each other best to take down Scotland.
6. Beirne (Turnover threat)/Ruddock (Physically dominant)/Baird (Highly athletic)
7. Van der Flier/Connors (Both options offer high work-rate)
8. Stander (Well-rounded consistent performer)/Conan (Extra lineout option, turnover threat and dynamic carrier)

Reserve: Coombes (Superb handling at 8 off scrums, offloading ability, also good at carrying into heavy traffic close to the try line)

We are well-stocked to put it mildly, even not including O'Mahony when he comes back into the frame after the Scotland match.

I would like to see a back row of 6. Ruddock, 7. Van der Flier, and 8. Coombes but I realise for continuity that is too much change and Coombes doesn't look likely to pass out Stander and Conan.
I think Farrell will go with 6. Beirne, 7. Van der Flier and 8. Stander, but only a guess really, loads of options which is exactly what we need to be flexible against different teams.

Stout Warrior

I would like to see Ruddock Connors Stander but he’ll stick with Beirne. I think England are there for the taking this year but I just don’t think we have the raw materials to see us over the line. We have a stagnant back line and underpowered pack.

That can be negated with a well motivated and organised team but I fear we lack the cohesion and confidence in our game plan (if we even have one). I don’t think there’s an overarching plan for the team to play to and we will therefore be on the back foot trying to negate England.

Edit - actually we are not underpowered in the front 5 but perhaps lack carriers across the 8

Water John

Stout Warrior wrote: »

I would like to see Ruddock Connors Stander but he’ll stick with Beirne. I think England are there for the taking this year but I just don’t think we have the raw materials to see us over the line. We have a stagnant back line and underpowered pack.

That can be negated with a well motivated and organised team but I fear we lack the cohesion and confidence in our game plan (if we even have one). I don’t think there’s an overarching plan for the team to play to and we will therefore be on the back foot trying to negate England.

Edit - actually we are not underpowered in the front 5 but perhaps lack carriers across the 8

To borrow from another sport, that seems a bit of a Roy Keane type of analysis. Have you any positive point to bring to the discussion? If your pack is too heavy it isn't mobile. and you'll want mobility against Scotland.

Garda Kenny

I think we’ll be up against it to beat Scotland and England. Very little to be optimistic about. If we were well drilled I’d be happy but don’t see that yet.