Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

joficeduns1

Dan Leavy has his work cut out for him anyway.

Clegg

Farrell needs to be commended for his integration of new players into the starting 15. Doris and Keenan already look like players who'll be mainstays in the side for years to come. And I think Kelleher is getting there. His throwing needs work, but yesterday was his best Ireland performance to date and he's had a number of encouraging performances off the bench this season as well.

It's not a surprise that Doris and Kelleher have made it as they've looked like future test players through every rank. But Keenan needs to be credited for the work he's done to get to this level. He was a decent underage player and performed well in the u20 side that got to the world cup final. But he wasn't a standout performer like Porter, Ryan, Deegan or Stockdale. He's gone a slightly longer way round to get to this level. From the academy to 7's to getting a few pro 14 appearances last season, to all of a sudden getting thrown in the deep end against Saracens and then into the Autumn Nations Cup. He's taken it all in his stride so easily. I don't think anyone could have expected so swift a rise.

Stout Warrior

Water John wrote: »

To borrow from another sport, that seems a bit of a Roy Keane type of analysis. Have you any positive point to bring to the discussion? If your pack is too heavy it isn't mobile. and you'll want mobility against Scotland.

I would love to be more positive and don’t mean to be overly negative however I haven’t seen an overarching game plan in place. Added to that is the fact that we don’t have any stellar international level players coming through. Keenan is solid without being spectacular and Doris is a good footballer without being physically very big for an international back rower. I’m being realistic but perhaps that comes across as negative. I think Farrell should be given more time but we are looking at bottom 2 or 4th place finish this season. We are slowly falling down the pecking order. I would like to see a motivated well coached team but can’t see that yet. Time will tell.

rodge123

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12508/12230246/six-nations-french-sports-minister-threatens-france-withdrawal-over-covid-19-outbreak

Would suit Wales nicely!
The final piece of the jigsaw to make it one of the luckiest title wins ever!

theVersatile

Dillane being released to Connacht and Baird being retained would appear to indicate that the latter has leapfrogged the former in the pecking order.

irelandrover

Garda Kenny wrote: »

I think we’ll be up against it to beat Scotland and England. Very little to be optimistic about. If we were well drilled I’d be happy but don’t see that yet.

What about England's performances so far makes you think we'll be lucky to beat them?
They have been poor so far and just got hammered against wales and don't have the excuse that they were down to 14 for 70 minutes.

Bazzo

theVersatile wrote: »

Dillane being released to Connacht and Baird being retained would appear to indicate that the latter has leapfrogged the former in the pecking order.

Seems like it. A shame for Dillane who has been in incredible form recently (his display Vs Racing in particular was absolutely monstrous) he's gotten very unlucky that the options ahead of him are unbelievable players in their own right who are in excellent form.

Former Former Former wrote: »

Yeah but is he bulky enough to drive behind the tighthead in a scrum? If you're looking at partners for Ryan, won't there be a temptation to go for a heftier lad? Works OK at Munster when he'd be paired with Kleyn and probably Snyman next season.

So he might be better suited at 6, from a physical perspective anyway.

Could be mistaken but I think they're trying to shift Ryan into the tighthead lock role. He has certainly packed down there a few times as he's added a bit of bulk.

Former Former Former

Connors retained in camp, VDF staying with Leinster. Might be significant.

https://www.irishrugby.ie/2021/03/01/ireland-squad-update-ahead-of-second-six-nations-mini-camp/

thomond2006

Baird must be in line for the 23 for Scotland. That probably means Beirne remains at blindside as I don't see how any of Ryan, Henderson or Beirne don't make the 23.

OneLungDavy

thomond2006 wrote: »

Baird must be in line for the 23 for Scotland. That probably means Beirne remains at blindside as I don't see how any of Ryan, Henderson or Beirne don't make the 23.

I'm happy with this. I think the pack that started against Italy is the best we've put out in years. Throw in Baird and Conan after 60 minutes to add an extra layer of dynamism.

accensi0n

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I'm happy with this. I think the pack that started against Italy is the best we've put out in years. Throw in Baird and Conan after 60 minutes to add an extra layer of dynamism.

Baird seems to be an athlete freak, there were times in the Italy game where he went into contact upright againt 2 players and made ground, usually someone in they kind of upright position would get blasted back.

dublin49

irelandrover wrote: »

What about England's performances so far makes you think we'll be lucky to beat them?
They have been poor so far and just got hammered against wales and don't have the excuse that they were down to 14 for 70 minutes.

I don't think England got hammered ,they took 2 body blows of very very dubious decisions and fought back well and then the game got away from them.England lose so many games they look like they are going to win ,its great.

cantwbr1

dublin49 wrote: »

I don't think England got hammered ,they took 2 body blows of very very dubious decisions and fought back well and then the game got away from them.England lose so many games they look like they are going to win ,its great.

I agree with this. If you ignore the two dodgy tries, the score was 24-10 to England halfway through the second half. It’s hard to imagine them blowing that lead as they would probably have played conservative and not given away the stupid penalties

realhorrorshow

Clegg wrote: »

Farrell needs to be commended for his integration of new players into the starting 15. Doris and Keenan already look like players who'll be mainstays in the side for years to come. And I think Kelleher is getting there. His throwing needs work, but yesterday was his best Ireland performance to date and he's had a number of encouraging performances off the bench this season as well.

It's not a surprise that Doris and Kelleher have made it as they've looked like future test players through every rank. But Keenan needs to be credited for the work he's done to get to this level. He was a decent underage player and performed well in the u20 side that got to the world cup final. But he wasn't a standout performer like Porter, Ryan, Deegan or Stockdale. He's gone a slightly longer way round to get to this level. From the academy to 7's to getting a few pro 14 appearances last season, to all of a sudden getting thrown in the deep end against Saracens and then into the Autumn Nations Cup. He's taken it all in his stride so easily. I don't think anyone could have expected so swift a rise.

It makes you wonder what other players in the system are only a run of games away from proving themselves to be international class.

bilston

rodge123 wrote: »

https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12508/12230246/six-nations-french-sports-minister-threatens-france-withdrawal-over-covid-19-outbreak

Would suit Wales nicely!
The final piece of the jigsaw to make it one of the luckiest title wins ever!

Would deny them a proper Grand Slam though

Dubinusa

England look off. They don't appear to be gelling or playing as well as they have . It could be because Sarries players are not playing top level rugby atm. I think we have a chance to beat them. Although, Murphy's law would probably mean they return to form for the last week.
Scotland have improved imo. They will be a tough outing. This will be a crucial moment for AF. Win and we're pumped for match 5. Lose and the calls for his head will be loud.
It's a pivotal match for Ireland. I suppose any kind of win will be what the doctor ordered. If we do win and beat England, we would have had a good campaign, imo. Considering the luck the Welch had for the 1st 2 matches, a little bit of lady luck for us would be ideal.

Dave_The_Sheep

bilston wrote: »

Would deny them a proper Grand Slam though

Were it Ireland in the Welsh position, I doubt most of us would care too much.

Clegg

We've a nice problem on our hands when POM and Doris return to the side. Before this tournament began Doris looked to be nailing down the 8 jersey, with Stander moving to 6 and POM to 7.

But Beirne has now put his hand up at blindside meaning there's a potential shootout between POM/Stander and he for the jersey. Or just between he and POM with Stander and Doris duking it out at 8.

bilston

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

Were it Ireland in the Welsh position, I doubt most of us would care too much.

To win a GS without having to play France?

I would say there would always be an asteria against that one

Dave_The_Sheep

bilston wrote: »

To win a GS without having to play France?

I would say there would always be an asteria against that one

For sure. I'm merely saying Welsh fans won't care. And I doubt most of us would too.

Downlinz

Clegg wrote: »

We've a nice problem on our hands when POM and Doris return to the side. Before this tournament began Doris looked to be nailing down the 8 jersey, with Stander moving to 6 and POM to 7.

But Beirne has now put his hand up at blindside meaning there's a potential shootout between POM/Stander and he for the jersey. Or just between he and POM with Stander and Doris duking it out at 8.

IMO We should be thinking more along the lines of horses for courses rather than a designated first choice backrow in all situations.
I think Stander starts somewhere in all situations but the other two spots is a question of the opposition and which attributes we need to focus on. Beirne, POM, VDF, Connors and Doris should all see plenty of gametime in the years ahead.

dublin49

Downlinz wrote: »

IMO We should be thinking more along the lines of horses for courses rather than a designated first choice backrow in all situations.
I think Stander starts somewhere in all situations but the other two spots is a question of the opposition and which attributes we need to focus on. Beirne, POM, VDF, Connors and Doris should all see plenty of gametime in the years ahead.

Do you not think Stander is too one dimensional,Head down into contact every time .

arsebiscuits1

dublin49 wrote: »

Do you not think Stander is too one dimensional,Head down into contact every time .

He passed and offloaded the second most of any Irish forward against both Wales and France...

7 passes against Wales only bettered by Beirne

5 against France only bettered by Henderson

Less then against Italy with 2

But the concept that he doesn't pass is a misnomer. He's got a very underrated passing game.

theVersatile

One year extension for Sexton

OneLungDavy

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

He passed and offloaded the second most of any Irish forward against both Wales and France...

7 passes against Wales only bettered by Beirne

5 against France only bettered by Henderson

Less then against Italy with 2

But the concept that he doesn't pass is a misnomer. He's got a very underrated passing game.

Besides, he offers a lot without the ball too.

AbusesToilets

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

He passed and offloaded the second most of any Irish forward against both Wales and France...

7 passes against Wales only bettered by Beirne

5 against France only bettered by Henderson

Less then against Italy with 2

But the concept that he doesn't pass is a misnomer. He's got a very underrated passing game.

He passes the way POC did, shoveling the ball on to the next in line. He's not typically creative with ball the way top 8s are, for example passing out of of contact to create space for someone on his shoulder. He looks for contact far to much, and has poor footwork when he does. It's noticeable in comparison to Leinster players, who are much more effective shifting their angle to attack soft shoulders.

theVersatile

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He passes the way POC did, shoveling the ball on to the next in line. He's not typically creative with ball the way top 8s are, for example passing out of of contact to create space for someone on his shoulder. He looks for contact far to much, and has poor footwork when he does. It's noticeable in comparison to Leinster players, who are much more effective shifting their angle to attack soft shoulders.

Nonsense, CJ's plenty creative when he wants to be: https://youtu.be/OCe_RyqDR-8?t=2690

wittycynic

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He passes the way POC did, shoveling the ball on to the next in line. He's not typically creative with ball the way top 8s are, for example passing out of of contact to create space for someone on his shoulder. He looks for contact far to much, and has poor footwork when he does. It's noticeable in comparison to Leinster players, who are much more effective shifting their angle to attack soft shoulders.

I'd be interested to know which Leinster 8 you think should be ahead of him.

arsebiscuits1

AbusesToilets wrote: »

He passes the way POC did, shoveling the ball on to the next in line. He's not typically creative with ball the way top 8s are, for example passing out of of contact to create space for someone on his shoulder. He looks for contact far to much, and has poor footwork when he does. It's noticeable in comparison to Leinster players, who are much more effective shifting their angle to attack soft shoulders.

Wales game

1:45 on the match clock, Murray too slow to the ruck, Stander acts as 9 and throws a 10m pass to Beirne going right to left. Good pass

22:15 on the match clock, takes one out pass from Murray in Wales 22. Gives screen pass behind to Henshaw. Good pass and option with Beirne not executing a dummy run effectively at all

23:18. Wins contact from a nice inside pass from Sexton in the 22. Gets hands free and offloads to Murray who was shouting for the inside ball. Sexton gets in the channel and knocks on pity as if Sexton or Murray catch that it's a try.

41:36. Takes ball at first receiver on turnover ball and fires a lovely screen pass to Lowe. Pass on the money. Lowe probably needed to fix a few defenders before passing wide

68:05. Used as link man on a nice move instigated by Sexton. Leads directly to break and offload. CJ commits 2 Welsh defenders prior to releasing Johnny through a half gap

69:55. Takes off the back of a scrum. Poor execution here. Heads up he'd have seen Navidi buried in the scrum. He should have drawn the first man to manufacture a 3 v 2

78:27. No 9 to ruck, he steps in and passes to Lowe. Good pass.

France game

31:01. Fields ball after France clearance. Commits 2 French defenders before releasing offload to Keenan who creates a great chance in the French 22. Excellent play by CJ as linked above by theversitile

35:12. Offloads from the deck after jumping on a loose ball from turnover. Good heads up play to keep the ball alive in a good turnover position. Herring squanders chance with poor execution

42:19. Pass off the base of the scrum. Average pass and play comes to nothing after excellent read by Dupont

60:34. Screen pass after taking ball at first receiver. Carries ball to line very well aiding in committing the defensive pod in front

79:33. Pop out the back to Ross Byrne. Shape totally lost in this play and was never going to amount to anything

Italy game

52:02. Takes ball at first receiver. Commits man in front before releasing tip on to Kelleher for a half line break. Fights to keep his feet and resources ruck for quick ball and threat out wide on next phase. Good play

I can't find his other pass against the Italians.


Overall in the 3 games Stander has delivered a variety of differing passes to a very high standard and Ireland has benefit from them.

I think people are too happy to judge based on a narrative rather than recent evidence

aloooof

I honestly don't get the criticism CJ courts from time to time. He's been excellent so far. The passing / looking for contact thing is overblown imo, particularly when he's getting over the gainline consistently.

And that's not to mention his defense. I think he affected 3 turnovers in the first half on Saturday alone, between turnovers at the breakdown and rips etc. There's also his strength in the tackle; he was consistently getting off the line and stopping lads behind the gainline too. Throw in his workrate, and I don't see him not getting selected any time soon.

He's been an ever present pretty much since Heaslip retired and there's a reason for that.