Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TomsOnTheRoof

aloooof wrote: »

I honestly don't get the criticism CJ courts from time to time. He's been excellent so far. The passing / looking for contact thing is overblown imo, particularly when he's getting over the gainline consistently.

And that's not to mention his defense. I think he affected 3 turnovers in the first half on Saturday alone, between turnovers at the breakdown and rips etc. There's also his strength in the tackle; he was consistently getting off the line and stopping lads behind the gainline too. Throw in his workrate, and I don't see him not getting selected any time soon.

He's been an ever present pretty much since Heaslip retired and there's a reason for that.

He's made the most carries in the tournament. He's 10th for metres made (with an average carry being 4.6 metres), the second highest forward behind Faletau (4 metres in the difference). He's fifth in turnovers won and that's only counting those at the breakdown, not rips or others. Last year he topped the carries list, was joint tenth in metres made (at 3.95 metres per carry) and topped the turnovers won list. Last year he topped the passes made for a forward in the squad with 33, the next highest was 15. This year he is second for passes made by a forward in the squad at 14. I should also add that he's averaging 11 tackles a game over the past two tournaments with only one tackle missed for every 15 completed.

Those numbers are world class. On their own they might not mean much but when you are simultaneously topping carries, top ten for metres, top for turnovers won, top for passes made by a forward in the squad then, as far as I'm concerned, you are a world class player. That level of involvement and consistency is unreal and compared to his peers he is on a different level.

I get that people's opinions differ and this is a discussion forum but when people write Stander off as one dimensional or lacking I put it down to either a lack of understanding or blatant provincialism. He's one of the best backrowers in the game.

Must love hardship

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

He's made the most carries in the tournament. He's 10th for metres made (with an average carry being 4.6 metres), the second highest forward behind Faletau (4 metres in the difference). He's fifth in turnovers won and that's only counting those at the breakdown, not rips or others. Last year he topped the carries list, was joint tenth in metres made (at 3.95 metres per carry) and topped the turnovers won list. Last year he topped the passes made for a forward in the squad with 33, the next highest was 15. This year he is second for passes made by a forward in the squad at 14. I should also add that he's averaging 11 tackles a game over the past two tournaments with only one tackle missed for every 15 completed.

Those numbers are world class. On their own they might not mean much but when you are simultaneously topping carries, top ten for metres, top for turnovers won, top for passes made by a forward in the squad then, as far as I'm concerned, you are a world class player. That level of involvement and consistency is unreal and compared to his peers he is on a different level.

I get that people's opinions differ and this is a discussion forum but when people write Stander off as one dimensional or lacking I put it down to either a lack of understanding or blatant provincialism. He's one of the best backrowers in the game.

Id prefer we give someone else a chance and let's see if they can be better than him and surpass his numbers and offer something other than blunt force trauma.

Doris got his chance and arguably would be the first choice 8 at the moment only he has his head injury which is more important to sort out.

He proved that given the opportunity we have better 8's than stander in Ireland.
Coombes is also arguably better than Stander and has greater potential in the long term.

Id like to see Conan get a run at 8 as he offers something different at 8 than stander. He is showing good form with back to back motm awards and id like to see what he can offer at international level. Stander has miss fired against England the last few times we played them and id like to see others afforded the same opportunity he has gotten.. ps. He's too small for no. 8.

phog

Must love hardship wrote: »

Id prefer we give someone else a chance and let's see if they can be better than him and surpass his numbers and offer something other than blunt force trauma.

Doris got his chance and arguably would be the first choice 8 at the moment only he has his head injury which is more important to sort out.

He proved that given the opportunity we have better 8's than stander in Ireland.
Coombes is also arguably better than Stander and has greater potential in the long term.

Id like to see Conan get a run at 8 as he offers something different at 8 than stander. He is showing good form with back to back motm awards and id like to see what he can offer at international level. Stander has miss fired against England the last few times we played them and id like to see others afforded the same opportunity he has gotten.. ps. He's too small for no. 8.

So on a whim you'd like someone else to be given a chance just to see if they can do better.

That's exactly how a manager should select a team to play international rugby - NOT

arsebiscuits1

Must love hardship wrote: »

Id prefer we give someone else a chance and let's see if they can be better than him and surpass his numbers and offer something other than blunt force trauma.

Doris got his chance and arguably would be the first choice 8 at the moment only he has his head injury which is more important to sort out.

He proved that given the opportunity we have better 8's than stander in Ireland.
Coombes is also arguably better than Stander and has greater potential in the long term.

Id like to see Conan get a run at 8 as he offers something different at 8 than stander. He is showing good form with back to back motm awards and id like to see what he can offer at international level. Stander has miss fired against England the last few times we played them and id like to see others afforded the same opportunity he has gotten.. ps. He's too small for no. 8.

Why would you prefer someone else to get a chance over him? CJ is 30 with an excellent injury profile and one of the prominent back rows in Europe. He's going to be around for the next RWC.

As for your Coombes is arguably better than Stander. This is not true. Please remove the idea from your head. Where are you seeing that he has more potential long term genuinely? Coombes has established himself as a dynamic ball carrier in the Pro14 and did admirably in his 2 games in Europe. This is a near identical path to CJ who frankly was a much more destructive carrier when breaking through.

I think there is just recency bias there.

Conan in 2019 was absolute phenomenal and was one of the standout numbers 8s in Europe. He had an unbelievable showing in a losing final against Saracens. But hasn't had a proper run of fitness since.

Finally. If CJ is too small for an 8 then how has he garnered his reputation for dominant carries against the best teams in the world?

Brewster

Hard to leave Stander out of team. I posted similar earlier in the week, he will only come under threat when Doris and Beirne are both fit and you may want to go with an out and out open side such as Connors or VDF. Doris and Beirne plus AN Other for me over next 18 months. Doris, Stander and Beirne wouldn’t be bullied by anyone, but it may be a little out of balance. But CJ is so good at the breakdown, along with Beirne, I think we’d get away with it.

aloooof

Must love hardship wrote: »

[Doris] proved that given the opportunity we have better 8's than stander in Ireland.

If we grant your premise, all it proves is that we have a better 8. It says nothing about other 8's. And, as we know, Doris is currently unavailable.

Podge_irl

Fredinho wrote: »

Leinster players have been so off form in green for a while it's letting the rest of the team down. And the answer is more of them. .. As I say I'm sure Munster, Connacht and Ulster are happy to have their players back fresh and healthy for the business end of the season.

Not that it will do them much good :pac:

VANG1

We are lucky to be such a small country with only 4 factions fighting.
This is the Ireland team and the coaches jobs depend on results so they pick the best players based on club games and performance in training Not on where they come from.

thomond2006

VANG1 wrote: »

We are lucky to be such a small country with only 4 factions fighting.
This is the Ireland team and the coaches jobs depend on results so they pick the best players based on club games and performance in training Not on where they come from.

Selection based on factions is the only reason John Hayes isn't being picked.

salmocab

thomond2006 wrote: »

Selection based on factions is the only reason John Hayes was ever picked.

Fixed up your post for you

thomond2006

salmocab wrote: »

Fixed up your post for you

Water John

'The Bull' is beloved. Say a word against him and you'll have Fiona to answer to.

Water John

Water John wrote: »

'The Bull' is beloved. Say a word against him and you'll have Fiona to answer to.

Have always wanted to know what Thomond's actual name was.

sebdavis

aloooof wrote: »

I honestly don't get the criticism CJ courts from time to time. He's been excellent so far. The passing / looking for contact thing is overblown imo, particularly when he's getting over the gainline consistently.

And that's not to mention his defense. I think he affected 3 turnovers in the first half on Saturday alone, between turnovers at the breakdown and rips etc. There's also his strength in the tackle; he was consistently getting off the line and stopping lads behind the gainline too. Throw in his workrate, and I don't see him not getting selected any time soon.

He's been an ever present pretty much since Heaslip retired and there's a reason for that.

A lot of teams in England media etc have Standar starting 8 for Lions based on the games so far.

jacothelad

Deleted User wrote: »

Have always wanted to know what Thomond's actual name was.

Her real name is Ophelia...............:D Fiona is just a front for the illegal import of Bull themed pyjamas from Bangladesh.

kilns

POM given a new 2 year central contract, queue the POM debate!

For me personally, for a union now most likely short on cash, this is very bad business, considering POM will and should become a more peripheral figure around the squad, as there are simply better alternatives than him

thomond2006

kilns wrote: »

POM given a new 2 year central contract, queue the POM debate!

For me personally, for a union now most likely short on cash, this is very bad business, considering POM will and should become a more peripheral figure around the squad, as there are simply better alternatives than him

roverjoyce

kilns wrote: »

POM given a new 2 year central contract, queue the POM debate!

For me personally, for a union now most likely short on cash, this is very bad business, considering POM will and should become a more peripheral figure around the squad, as there are simply better alternatives than him

Looks like Ireland will have a 32 & 33 year old in the backrow at the world cup

And signed 2 x 33 & a 35 year old's to contracts

Looks like a old boys club, when the IRFU don't want to rock the boat by not cutting them lose.

Downlinz

kilns wrote: »

POM will and should become a more peripheral figure around the squad, as there are simply better alternatives than him

This is a fantasy dreamed up in the head of Leinster supporters and was never close to reality. Himself and Stander have been the cornerstones of the Irish backrow over the last few years and will continue to be into the next RWC. He was a Lions test captain and is currently part of the Irish leadership group for a reason.
No amount of wailing around D4 is going to change that.

KBurke85

roverjoyce wrote: »

Looks like Ireland will have a 32 & 33 year old in the backrow at the world cup

And signed 2 x 33 & a 35 year old's to contracts

Looks like a old boys club, when the IRFU don't want to rock the boat by not cutting them lose.

So what. How they perform is more important than what age they are.

Plenty of backrow players have played very well in their 30's.

Good interview with POM around his new contract: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8-6aKV7tn4&ab_channel=sedantez24

Fredinho

kilns wrote:

POM given a new 2 year central contract, queue the POM debate!

Wouldn't agree with that personally no matter where my allegiances lied.

yerrahbah

roverjoyce wrote: »

Looks like Ireland will have a 32 & 33 year old in the backrow at the world cup

And signed 2 x 33 & a 35 year old's to contracts

Looks like a old boys club, when the IRFU don't want to rock the boat by not cutting them lose.

If that's the case then it will be because the alternatives aren't good enough

theVersatile

A lot on Twitter about him not being first choice anymore; nonsense IMO as he was the starting seven coming into the tournament. I think the red card wiped people's minds of the very good form he was in coming into the tournament off the back of the ANC and his Munster performances. He'll probably be back into the side at least at #20 for the last game of the campaign too, looking to be back in the XV in the Summer assuming he's not with the Lions.

That said, I'm very surprised myself he got the full two years as opposed to one year with a review after that pending continued performances

Zzippy

theVersatile wrote: »

That said, I'm very surprised myself he got the full two years as opposed to one year with a review after that pending continued performances

That's essentially a one year rolling contract with no guarantee of loyalty from the employer if he gets injured or has a drop in form. No player of his calibre is going to sign a one year contract at his age.

THFC198

What other main stay players are out of contract this summer? Who, if any, could we lose?

Podge_irl

He was the starting 6, not the starting 7. We'll never know what would have happened if Doris had made it.

Anyway, seeing as I don't actually believe centrally contracted players are "forced" into the team I don't really care. Though I find it a slightly odd use of resources. He was going to get a contract with IRFU or Munster either way though.

yerrahbah

THFC198 wrote: »

What other main stay players are out of contract this summer? Who, if any, could we lose?

From a Munster POV, Stander and Earls have contracts expiring this summer.

phog

roverjoyce wrote: »

Looks like Ireland will have a 32 & 33 year old in the backrow at the world cup

And signed 2 x 33 & a 35 year old's to contracts

Looks like a old boys club, when the IRFU don't want to rock the boat by not cutting them lose.

What? You want players retiring at 32 now?

salmocab

Podge_irl wrote: »

He was the starting 6, not the starting 7. We'll never know what would have happened if Doris had made it.

Anyway, seeing as I don't actually believe centrally contracted players are "forced" into the team I don't really care. Though I find it a slightly odd use of resources. He was going to get a contract with IRFU or Munster either way though.

Yeah I’d read nothing into this selection wise beyond possibly AF confirming he’s in the plans. It won’t affect selection for any given match.