Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

sebdavis

Former Former Former wrote: »

TBH,I think they're a bit of a relic from a bygone era and that's why they've steadily reduced in number these last few years.

In 2021, they're a nice status symbol but from a practical perspective, there is no difference. I don't care which bank account POM's salary comes from.

At one stage the IRFU had loads of players, then it was rightly reduced to circa 15 and has stayed at that for a long time now.

Players on a central contracts means the player is getting additional money from rights etc. They use centrally contracted players for advertisements etc.

Personally I would prefer to see the IRFU invest in the younger players than giving big wages to a player who is not a guaranteed starter for the National team

sydthebeat

sebdavis wrote: »

Not sure what your point is?
What do you think Central contracts are for?

central contracts are a way of a province benefiting from not having to pay players from their limited funds, if that player is going to unavailable for a large part of the season due to test level duty.

what do YOU think central contracts are for?

Yeah_Right

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Ruddock doesn't come close to him. Ruddock is a fine player who's international caps have come in a piecemeal fashion. O'Mahony is a Lions test captain who has beaten New Zealand and has been a vital cog in a successful Irish team. Doris is playing 8 and so the comparison is useless. To my knowledge Beirne has never been selected at blindside ahead of POM in a tier 1 International.

Interesting way you worded the bit in bold. He was a Lions test captain and he has also beaten NZ. Not at the same time. He was even in the matchday 23 for the 2nd Lions test was he?

I don't think he should have gotten a central contract and that is nothing to do with age, it is to do with ability. If all of Ireland's back row options are available, I think he struggles to make the match day squad.

Podge_irl

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Interesting way you worded the bit in bold. He was a Lions test captain and he has also beaten NZ. Not at the same time. He was even in the matchday 23 for the 2nd Lions test was he?

No, he dropped out of the squad completely. He just has the one test cap and it is as captain which is an interesting record I imagine.

TomsOnTheRoof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Interesting way you worded the bit in bold. He was a Lions test captain and he has also beaten NZ. Not at the same time. He was even in the matchday 23 for the 2nd Lions test was he?

I don't think he should have gotten a central contract and that is nothing to do with age, it is to do with ability. If all of Ireland's back row options are available, I think he struggles to make the match day squad.

The NZ part was a reference to his man of the match performance against them in 2018 (I should have made myself more clear but I assumed that most people knew I was referencing the 2018 victory rather than the second test). I was using it separately to illustrate the fact that not only has he captained the Lion's Test side but he has also been the best player on the pitch in our first ever home win against a side we have beaten only twice. Whilst the Lions was disappointing the win in 2018 went a long way to making up for that. Ruddock is a fine player but there is a hell of a difference between him and POM.

As regards the central contract I'm not too bothered. I'm just happy that Munster have him for another two seasons although I will admit that there is a small part of me that is delighted it's causing some supporters so much angst (not aimed at yourself).

kilns

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Lads I don't know why you are still discussing this, kilns said "end of"

Glad you know

Anyways if you are a top 10 international team in the absence of an injury crisis who is going to pick POM at 7

I get it some people need to tribally defend him but my original point stands that an association who are facing serious cash problems giving an aging player not gauranteed of being in the first team is crazy business

molloyjh

kilns wrote: »

I agree Stander is Irelands best 6

I don't think you can judge one offload as being a fantastic link player and his athleticism would be below par compared to his peers. As far as leadership skills go, his last involvement in international rugby was not a endorsement of his leadership

When playing at 7 in the ANC he passed more than the other back rows and as many times as Aki at 12 over the England and Scotland games. Against Scotland he was employed in the wider channels a lot and gave the final pass to Earls for his try. There are other examples, I just thought that stood out as something few, if any other, back rows could do do was a nice example.

aloooof

kilns wrote: »

Glad you know

Anyways if you are a top 10 international team in the absence of an injury crisis who is going to pick POM at 7

I get it some people need to tribally defend him but my original point stands that an association who are facing serious cash problems giving an aging player not gauranteed of being in the first team is crazy business

You keep saying injury crisis / lack of alternatives when it's just been Leavy missing at 7. That's not an injury crisis.

And how do you know it's crazy business? You've no idea how much the contract is for.

Must love hardship

aloooof wrote: »

You keep saying injury crisis / lack of alternatives when it's just been Leavy missing at 7. That's not an injury crisis.

And how do you know it's crazy business? You've no idea how much the contract is far.

I think Peter is an ideal irish squad player and will be in the irish training squads for the next 2 years due to his versatility.. The same can be said for having him in the match day 23.

Do I believe there are better individuals in all the positions across the back row? 100%.

Also as and irish qualified Munster captain he's hardly not going to be on a central contract. Same goes for ulster and leinster captains.

Sadly connacht are not offered the same deal.

The Inbetween is mine

kilns wrote: »

He should be discarded at 6 for Stander who is a superior player who then would facilitate Doris and Conan to step into the 8 role.

When all backrows are fit and firing, Conan won't be in the squad, he's injury cover, nothing more

Sanjuro

So, eh... Zebo's rumoured to be returning to Ireland. Probably be dropped straight back into the Ireland 23, right?


💣

Yeah_Right

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

As regards the central contract I'm not too bothered. I'm just happy that Munster have him for another two seasons although I will admit that there is a small part of me that is delighted it's causing some supporters so much angst (not aimed at yourself).

I agree that its good for Munster to have someone like POM signed up for the next couple of seasons. If he maintains his form (and cuts out the red cards) he will be a useful player to have around. However, I think he is going to have a battle to be a starter and in the next season to make the 23.
Currently I'd have Coombes and Stander at 8 and 6 respectively, then its a battle between Cloete (a specialist open side), JOD (I want him on the field) and POM for the 7 shirt. Next season the competition gets tougher as Sneyman, Kleyn, Wycherly and Ahern are vying for the locking spots, does Beirne move to the back row more often? Hodnett will be pushing for game time. He is an open side mainly isn't he?

easy peasy

Fredinho wrote: »

What I find interesting is Sexton 36 in July - the Irish captain gets 1 year, and has said he might not be available for the 23 World cup and people don't have an issue

POM, 32 in September (4 years younger than Sexton) the Irish vice captain, the man likely to be captain at 23 World cup gets a 2 year contract and it's an issue.

Regardless of our allegiances folks these are the two leaders of Irish Rugby. They're always going to get central contracts.

One of them is undisputedly the best player in his position, the other is a player that divides Irish rugby fans - you only have to look at this thread today for evidence of that.

I find the decision baffling to be honest and a bit of a slap in the face to the younger guys who will more likely be playing more games for Ireland in the next two years than POM. IMO Stander, Connors/Leavy, Doris is our best back row and personally I'm not sure if POM would make my bench.

I keep hearing about his Autumn Nations Cup form and how he was Lions captain. Why does no one mention the fact that he got dropped for the Lions or that in a world cup year (2019) he was one of Ireland's worst players?

irelandrover

Farrell has shown he will drop people (Aki) who are on a central contract. So if you accept that O Mahony will be starting for munster for the next two years then a 2 year contract is a good idea. For me whether he's on a central or munster contract doesn't matter. He has also been a pretty constant for Ireland for the last few years.

I dont think he starts if everyone is fit but when was the last time everyone was fit.

DonVito

For a flanker who's scored 2 tries in 74 games, and only made more than 12 tackles once (17) in those 74 games, he's done very well to get as far as he has.

Usually you'd expect a 6/7 to get over a bite more often or to put in bigger defensive shifts.

Must be all the line-breaks.

Fair play to him.

easy peasy

While I don't agree with POM getting a central contract, I think the decision may have been made as a more big picture move.

Munster have four centrally contracted players, Earls, Murray, Stander and O'Mahony. Earls is up in the summer, as is Stander. Realistically Earls won't renew and that will go to Jordan Larmour or Hugo Keenan or won't be given to anyone. Stander will hopefully sign on but if he doesn't, that one is going to Doris.

This would leave Munster with two and Leinster with 9-10? This obviously doesn't work and would mean Munster would seriously struggle to balance the books while Leinster would be able to afford a massive squad.

Maybe POM was just the wrong man in the right place.

aloooof

easy peasy wrote: »

One of them is undisputedly the best player in his position, the other is a player that divides Irish rugby fans - you only have to look at this thread today for evidence of that.

I find the decision baffling to be honest and a bit of a slap in the face to the younger guys who will more likely be playing more games for Ireland in the next two years than POM. IMO Stander, Connors/Leavy, Doris is our best back row and personally I'm not sure if POM would make my bench.

I keep hearing about his Autumn Nations Cup form and how he was Lions captain. Why does no one mention the fact that he got dropped for the Lions or that in a world cup year (2019) he was one of Ireland's worst players?

You really think no one mentions this??

Must love hardship

irelandrover wrote: »

Farrell has shown he will drop people (Aki) who are on a central contract. So if you accept that O Mahony will be starting for munster for the next two years then a 2 year contract is a good idea. For me whether he's on a central or munster contract doesn't matter. He has also been a pretty constant for Ireland for the last few years.

I dont think he starts if everyone is fit but when was the last time everyone was fit.

Aki was a decent option when we had injuries in the centre. But limited.
Either Farrell, Henshaw or Ringrose were injured at different times over the last few years.

This year Henshaw and Ringrose are fit and as a result are clear first choice players.

Aki also doesn't cover any other positions in the backline so hard for him to get in the 23 when Ringrose and Henshaw are fit. Barring an injury id say we will stay outside the match day squads.

Lost Ormond

DonVito wrote: »

For a flanker who's scored 2 tries in 74 games, and only made more than 12 tackles once (17) in those 74 games, he's done very well to get as far as he has.

Usually you'd expect a 6/7 to get over a bite more often or to put in bigger defensive shifts.

Must be all the line-breaks.

Fair play to him.

How much of what a back row does is based around their try rate?
He has been picked consistently by several coaches so i dont see how its surprising he has got as far as he has.

TomsOnTheRoof

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I agree that its good for Munster to have someone like POM signed up for the next couple of seasons. If he maintains his form (and cuts out the red cards) he will be a useful player to have around. However, I think he is going to have a battle to be a starter and in the next season to make the 23.
Currently I'd have Coombes and Stander at 8 and 6 respectively, then its a battle between Cloete (a specialist open side), JOD (I want him on the field) and POM for the 7 shirt. Next season the competition gets tougher as Sneyman, Kleyn, Wycherly and Ahern are vying for the locking spots, does Beirne move to the back row more often? Hodnett will be pushing for game time. He is an open side mainly isn't he?

Next season at Munster will be very interesting. I think if Snyman is fit then Kleyn goes to the bench and Wycherly misses out. That allows JOD, Stander, Coombes and POM to battle it out in the backrow. I still see POM starting at 7 but it's hard to know. Ahern is an interesting one. He looks to have everything but we'll have to wait and see whether he'll be able to challenge for a starting spot.

Hodnett is an open side yeah and he looks very promising. With Barron coming through and O'Byrne there as well as Josh Wycherly and Knox and Salanoa at TH Munster will have a pack to contend with any team in Europe.

DonVito

I would say ball carrying and/or defensive work rate are pretty much the pillars of a back-row forward. If a flanker isn't putting in double digit tackle stats regularly then I would expect that they're making an impact on the other side of the ball. Conversely if a flanker isn't providing any overwhelming influence on the ball, then they must be compensating in defence.

To have only made more than 12 tackles 1 out 74 games is a pretty remarkable statistic in the context of international back-row forwards. Even more remarkable when you look at the number of 60+ minute games where his tackle stats are less than 5.

I think even his biggest endorsers would admit he isn't an imposing ball carrier either.

So what is it? line-out steals? turn-overs? link play/offloads?

He's a good player and a strong leader, but I think he's been very fortunate to reach 74 caps. Stats aren't everything but over a 74 game period, it's safe to make some assumptions.

Personally I think Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Jack Conan, VdF, Connors are all above him.

Lost Ormond

DonVito wrote: »

I would say ball carrying and/or defensive work rate are pretty much the pillars of a back-row forward. If a flanker isn't putting in double digit tackle stats regularly then I would expect that they're making an impact on the other side of the ball. Conversely if a flanker isn't providing any overwhelming influence on the ball, then they must be compensating in defence.

To have only made more than 12 tackles 1 out 74 games is a pretty remarkable statistic in the context of international back-row forwards. Even more remarkable when you look at the number of 60+ minute games where his tackle stats are less than 5.

I think even his biggest endorsers would admit he isn't an imposing ball carrier either.

So what is it? line-out steals? turn-overs? link play/offloads?

He's a good player and a strong leader, but I think he's been very fortunate to reach 74 caps. Stats aren't everything but over a 74 game period, it's safe to make some assumptions.

Personally I think Rhys Ruddock, Jordi Murphy, Jack Conan, VdF, Connors are all above him.

There is lot more factors at play than the stats alone. I think Rhys Ruddock is getting better and better the more he isnt picked for Ireland.
Why does he have to be this very big ball carrier anyway when he is alongside CJ, Ryan and several others who are imposing/very good carriers.

Fredinho

easy peasy wrote:

I keep hearing about his Autumn Nations Cup form and how he was Lions captain. Why does no one mention the fact that he got dropped for the Lions or that in a world cup year (2019) he was one of Ireland's worst players?

Warren Gatland

Nuff said

Did your really expect him to drop a Welsh player after a defeat....

Fredinho

Sanjuro wrote:

James Ryan will be the captain at the World Cup.

He won't, Iain Henderson will be ahead of him. Ryan's firm in green has been equally as poor as O'mahony. I'd be starting Henderson and Beirne ahead of him on current form

Former Former Former wrote:

Isn't James Ryan the vice-captain? I think it's very unlikely that POM will be captain in 2023.

Pretty sure it's
Sexton
O'mahony
Henderson
Ryan
Murray
Henshaw
Stander

That makes up the leadership team I believe

dregin

kilns wrote: »

POM given a new 2 year central contract, queue the POM debate!

For me personally, for a union now most likely short on cash, this is very bad business, considering POM will and should become a more peripheral figure around the squad, as there are simply better alternatives than him

Welcome to boards, Reggie!

Dubinusa

I think it should have been a 1 year deal. He has been playing well and he is a leader. I think Connors starts v Scotland and depending on how he goes, we're going to get a look at who Farrell thinks is our best option.
VDF looks like he's been dropped, which surprised me. He has the best work rate of all our opensides. His reaction will be interesting to watch. It's not set in stone yet. Right now I reckon POM, VDF and Connors are the options going forward, with Leavy maybe considered over the next year. This will depend on Leavy and his recovery and form.
Interestingly, Jordi has been brilliant up in Belfast. I think he could earn a recall too. I rate him as the best openside these past couple of months!
We do have several options and I think Leavy ,when healthy is our best option.
I do feel for Penny. He looks to be outstanding and he probably won't make a Leinster euro squad.

sebdavis

Fredinho wrote: »

He won't, Iain Henderson will be ahead of him. Ryan's firm in green has been equally as poor as O'mahony. I'd be starting Henderson and Beirne ahead of him on current form



Pretty sure it's
Sexton
O'mahony
Henderson
Ryan
Murray
Henshaw
Stander

That makes up the leadership team I believe

The leadership team includes Furlong & Earls FYI
Ryan was captain in the Autumn when POM was on the pitch,.

Even in the Wales game when Sexton went off, Ryan was captain and POM was on the pitch.

Personally I would have Hendo next in line for captain after Sexton

The Inbetween is mine

Farrell gushing to the press today about both POM & Sextons deal's...
as long as the head coach is happy, I guess the naysaying posts here matter less than a bee's fart in a hurricane

Fredinho

sebdavis wrote:

The leadership team includes Furlong & Earls FYI Ryan was captain in the Autumn when POM was on the pitch,

Even in the Wales game when Sexton went off, Ryan was captain and POM was on the pitch.

Personally I would have Hendo next in line for captain after Sexton

Cheers for adding the latter two, wasn't sure how far the group stretched.

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks Henderson should be next in line. Vastly underrated and IMHO he should be starting for the lions if there is a test series this year. Likely with AWJ or Itoje.

Ryan has the ability to jump into the mix and be the best of the lot, wouldn't deny that. I just haven't seen that form in a long time.

Interested Observer

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

Farrell gushing to the press today about both POM & Sextons deal's...
as long as the head coach is happy, I guess the naysaying posts here matter less than a bee's fart in a hurricane

He can be as happy as he likes, but be nice if he could win a few games.

As for the underlined, the entire rugby forum and probably 99% of boards.ie falls into that category.