Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

Ireland haven’t gone one win four losses in the twenty years since Italy joined the 6N. Near certainty Farrell is out if that happens.

Dont think so.
1. € IRFU Just cant afford it.
2. He has the support of all the senior players (Murray, Healy, Sexton, Henderson, PO'M & Earls) - Because he keeps picking them!!

It's clear to me though that Farrell is struggling badly as a selector and game tactician.

He's learning to be a Head Coach at the very pinnacle of the game.

He'll be given more time now that Sexton,Healy et al have another year on their contracts.

ClanofLams

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Dont think so.
1. € IRFU Just cant afford it.
2. He has the support of all the senior players (Murray, Healy, Sexton, Henderson, PO'M & Earls) - Because he keeps picking them!!

It's clear to me though that Farrell is struggling badly as a selector and game tactician.

He's learning to be a Head Coach at the very pinnacle of the game.

He'll be given more time now that Sexton,Healy et al have another year on their contracts.

Six month maximum payout clause in all IRFU contracts so even despite impact of Covid should be affordable. Not ideal obviously but won’t stop the decision.

Doubt senior player support will matter much but we don’t know how much they support him in reality anyway, they are all obviously going to say the right things - though Sexton did seem strong & genuine in his support in one interview I saw.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

He's contracted until 2023 but if he lost 4 games he'd be under serious pressure.

I don't think his job is at any risk. Finances are in the toilet, he'd have to be paid off, the IRFU would have to find somebody new which is going to be difficult at the moment, I just don't think it's a runner.

We can say the games are too important yada yada, would have thought that is all the more reason to pick the best players you have available.

sebdavis

bayern wrote: »

Yes, why are they must-win?

If they don't win or show a good hand of themselves I am sure plenty of people will be calling for Farrell to get sacked

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

Six month maximum payout clause in all IRFU contracts so even despite impact of Covid should be affordable. Not ideal obviously but won’t stop the decision.

Doubt senior player support will matter much but we don’t know how much they support him in reality anyway, they are all obviously going to say the right things - though Sexton did seem strong & genuine in his support in one interview I saw.

Didnt know that about the 6 month payout. Where did you see that?

Sexton backing is genuine to me

ClanofLams

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Didnt know that about the 6 month payout. Where did you see that?

Sexton backing is genuine to me

Don’t have link handy but it’s been reasonably widely discussed, it works both ways, coaches free to leave with six month notice too - it’s why Lam could leave Connacht and Erasmus could leave Munster despite being under contract.

bayern

sebdavis wrote: »

If they don't win or show a good hand of themselves I am sure plenty of people will be calling for Farrell to get sacked

that doesn't make them must wins.

Squidgy Black

ClanofLams wrote: »

Don’t have link handy but it’s been reasonably widely discussed, it works both ways, coaches free to leave with six month notice too - it’s why Lam could leave Connacht and Erasmus could leave Munster despite being under contract.

It's a 6 month notice clause for coaches looking to leave, although it's not clear if it works both ways cause I don't think we've many examples where there wasn't a "mutual agreement" like what happened with MOC.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pat-lam-admits-he-would-still-be-at-connacht-but-for-the-irfus-insistence-on-a-six-month-release-clause-35775924.html

sydthebeat

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It's a 6 month notice clause for coaches looking to leave, although it's not clear if it works both ways cause I don't think we've many examples where there wasn't a "mutual agreement" like what happened with MOC.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pat-lam-admits-he-would-still-be-at-connacht-but-for-the-irfus-insistence-on-a-six-month-release-clause-35775924.html

these "by mutual consent" type agreements are essentially a haggled pay off to get the coach to leave.

its pointless to have a 6 month clause in a contract which essentially says "we'll give you 6 months notice before we sack you"

the 6 months is so that the IRFU have time to find a replacement

ClanofLams

Squidgy Black wrote: »

It's a 6 month notice clause for coaches looking to leave, although it's not clear if it works both ways cause I don't think we've many examples where there wasn't a "mutual agreement" like what happened with MOC.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pat-lam-admits-he-would-still-be-at-connacht-but-for-the-irfus-insistence-on-a-six-month-release-clause-35775924.html

Pat Lam didn’t want the clause in because it gave him no job security and effectively made contract length meaningless as IRFU could sack him with six months notice.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.sportsjoe.ie/amp/rugby/the-irfu-got-too-smart-with-pat-lams-contract-now-hes-off-to-england-105683

Former Former Former

IRFU will always run the risk of losing a coach to a better offer rather than be saddled with a huge payoff to get rid of one who's run his course.

FWIW, I think they're right.

Interested Observer

I'd say the IRFU were burned badly by EOS (not that it's his fault) and adjusted after that. Kidney saw out a contract that wasn't renewed, Schmidt saw out a contract and left on his own terms, at provincial level not sure what happened with MOC but he's the closest to being sacked I can think of.

ClanofLams

They had the clause in New Zealand and opted to get rid of it. There are definitely merits to both sides of the argument. I think the only examples of it being used to get rid are Matt O’Connor and Kieran Keane. I’m not sure about Les Kiss at Ulster, it may/may not have been end of contract.

It has lost Lam, Erasmus and Jono Gibbes I think.

I think they could maybe stop using it in the case of renewals, it seems prudent for first time appointments but renewed contracts almost always see out term in Irish Rugby I think. If that was the case, both Lam and Erasmus’s contracts wouldn’t have had the clause.

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

Don’t have link handy but it’s been reasonably widely discussed, it works both ways, coaches free to leave with six month notice too - it’s why Lam could leave Connacht and Erasmus could leave Munster despite being under contract.

Interesting.....I couldn't find anything either.
If so I wonder how much would it cost the IRFU?
250-300k + Coaches = 500k?
Realistically i'd say it would be closer to €2m

Yes a loss to Scotland wouldn't be good for Farrell considering last 6N & the players he's again picked for this 6N.

If England also inflict another defeat I think it would be Catt and Easterby would be the one's more likely to go.

sebdavis

Interested Observer wrote: »

I'd say the IRFU were burned badly by EOS (not that it's his fault) and adjusted after that. Kidney saw out a contract that wasn't renewed, Schmidt saw out a contract and left on his own terms, at provincial level not sure what happened with MOC but he's the closest to being sacked I can think of.

MOC had an option for a 1 year extension from what I remember. They just didn't extend it.

To be fair to MOC I expect he knew what was happening when he came out and questioned the IRFU and taking all the Leinster players during the 6 nations.

Squidgy Black

sebdavis wrote: »

MOC had an option for a 1 year extension from what I remember. They just didn't extend it.

To be fair to MOC I expect he knew what was happening when he came out and questioned the IRFU and taking all the Leinster players during the 6 nations.

Nah MOC was sacked, and it was all done a bit questionably at the time because Leo was announced as an "interim" coach for the off-season, and there was a bit of furore when the decision to make Leo official HC 3 months later because it seemed that they hadn't managed to find an alternative.

ClanofLams

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Interesting.....
If so I wonder how much would it cost the IRFU?
250-300k + Coaches = 500k?

Yes a loss to Scotland wouldn't be good for Farrell considering last 6N & the players he's again picked for this 6N.

If England also inflict another defeat I think it would be Catt and Easterby would be the one's more likely to go.

I don’t think finances will be a major part of the decision to be honest. You would be paying them off with salary they will receive anyway from mid March - mid September when there isn’t many fixtures.

Maybe a summer tour (presumably with fair few missing for lions if that goes ahead) which an interim set up could handle. They are probably on reduced wages from contract currently due to Covid so it may cost a bit more if you have to pay six months of contract wages (without the reduction they are presumably taking currently) but don’t see as it as hugely relevant.


Appoint new coaching team effective from October 1 and the financial hit would be marginal (potentially even saving money as presume salaries being agreed have dropped in the age of Covid).


Two losses would be their worst six nations ever (since it changed from five nations, obviously they have got wooden spoon before). Very unlikely not to see complete clear out in those circumstances bar Paul O’Connell.

theVersatile

Earls signed with a one year extension

Dubinusa

I think a win against either Scotland or England and Farrell is safe. The performance will also be a factor. If we get humped in both fixtures.... well, he could be fired.
This week's match is a win at all costs fixture. A win relieves a little pressure.
I'm happy to see Stockdale back. I reckon he's a possibility for the 23 shirt. Balacoune will get his turn soon enough.
VDF will probably miss out. The HIA should keep him out. So, Connors looks to be in the driver's seat this week.
I think if there's a summer tour, Shane Daly and Balacoune will certainly get the opportunity. I wonder if Daly would be better off playing at 13. The wing is a tough nut to Crack atm and with Stockdale returning it makes it more difficult.
Dillane is flying right now and I think he's got no chance of playing, barring injury.

ionadnapokot

ClanofLams wrote: »

I don’t think finances will be a major part of the decision to be honest. You would be paying them off with salary they will receive anyway from mid March - mid September when there isn’t many fixtures.

Maybe a summer tour (presumably with fair few missing for lions if that goes ahead) which an interim set up could handle. They are probably on reduced wages from contract currently due to Covid so it may cost a bit more if you have to pay six months of contract wages (without the reduction they are presumably taking currently) but don’t see as it as hugely relevant.


Appoint new coaching team effective from October 1 and the financial hit would be marginal (potentially even saving money as presume salaries being agreed have dropped in the age of Covid).


Two losses would be their worst six nations ever (since it changed from five nations, obviously they have got wooden spoon before). Very unlikely not to see complete clear out in those circumstances bar Paul O’Connell.

Finances would have to be be very much to the fore of any decision.
IRFU €35m deficit last year and probably going to be €25m+ this year.

I was thinking it closer to a €2m hit if Farrell, Catt & Easterby were to go.

It would have to be drastic defeats to both Scot & Eng for a complete clear-out.

I hope we dont see either but we would really need to see a dramatic improvement v Scotland and England.
Farrell has picked what he believes is his strongest squad for these games now.

ClanofLams

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Finances would have to be be very much to the fore of any decision.
IRFU €35m deficit last year and probably going to be €25m+ this year.

I was thinking it closer to a €2m hit if Farrell, Catt & Easterby were to go.

It would have to be drastic defeats to both Scot & Eng for a complete clear-out.

I hope we dont see either but we would really need to see a dramatic improvement v Scotland and England.
Farrell has picked what he believes is his strongest squad for these games now.

Six month clause very likely to mean finances aren’t huge factor. The coaching staff have to be paid for those six months whether they stay or not. They might be on voluntary reduction currently which may not be included if six month payoff being made.

At the most during the six months there will be a couple of summer tests probably against the same nation as unlikely to want more travel than necessary and likely featuring a largely developmental squad which would expect some mix of current provincial coaches and O’Connell would handle. Andy Farrell wasn’t around for 2019 tour to Japan.

New coaching staff could be appointed effective October and contracts would very likely be significant reductions from salaries of current staff whose voluntary reductions possibly won’t be for much longer than this season.

All in all, it’s difficult to see how changing the coaching set up makes much if any of a negative impact to IRFU finances. Given this, two defeats in next two games highly likely to see end of current coaching set up.

Edit - Far more important financially is finishing position in six nations. Last year per Wales Online and other papers, champions received five million sterling (would be six million if grand slam), runners up 3.7 sterling, third 2.7 sterling, fourth 2.2 sterling and fifth 1.7 sterling.

sydthebeat

ClanofLams wrote: »

.......
All in all, it’s difficult to see how changing the coaching set up makes much if any of a negative impact to IRFU finances. Given this, two defeats in next two games highly likely to see end of current coaching set up.

it may mean coaching changes, but i dont think it would mean a head coach change.

look at wales getting rid of Hayward after their 2020 performances, or england ditching gustard for mitchell in 2018.

you recognise the deficiencies and take measures to resolve them. Ireland in defence are still quite good with the lowest points conceded so afar in the competition.

ClanofLams

sydthebeat wrote: »

it may mean coaching changes, but i dont think it would mean a head coach change.

look at wales getting rid of Hayward after their 2020 performances, or england ditching gustard for mitchell in 2018.

you recognise the deficiencies and take measures to resolve them. Ireland in defence are still quite good with the lowest points conceded so afar in the competition.

I don’t really see Farrell’s position being tenable on the event of two losses. Pivac was after one year and Jones had track record of success.

In two six nations Farrell would have beaten weak Scottish and Welsh teams at home and Italy twice, with the second championship culminating in Ireland’s worst six nations ever.

Would be shocked if he held position in those circumstances.

Neil3030

I see around the Internet that the prize money for winning the RWC is 325k, while the prize money for winning the 6N is 5m, increasing to 6m if you win the grand slam. Are these figures (in Sterling) accurate?

How does the TV money work, RWC v 6N does anyone know?

john9876

Sorry if it's been discussed before but if Farrell left, who is the likely successor?

Neil3030

Neil3030 wrote: »

I see around the Internet that the prize money for winning the RWC is 325k, while the prize money for winning the 6N is 5m, increasing to 6m if you win the grand slam. Are these figures (in Sterling) accurate?

How does the TV money work, RWC v 6N does anyone know?

I don't understand why the six nations has price money at all

Rigor Mortis

First call out has to go to ROG. I suspect he wont want it yet. Second call goes to Lancaster and Leo. If they dont want it as a double act i suspect we start looking to the Southern Hemisphere. McCall should get a call but i dont think he will.

FACECUTTR

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

First call out has to go to ROG. I suspect he wont want it yet. Second call goes to Lancaster and Leo. If they dont want it as a double act i suspect we start looking to the Southern Hemisphere. McCall should get a call but i dont think he will.

Would McCall be the answer ? Saracens were formidable with the big money and big names but look at them now. Championship teams beating them. This may just be temporary until they get settled but I personally think there are better options out there.

I dont think Easterby or Catt add anything but the lineout is operating better since POC joined.
I'd replace the aforementioned pair before kicking Farrell to the curb.

ClanofLams

Wouldn’t agree with O’Gara to be honest, think he has done everything right and very likely to be head coach of Ireland one day but eighteen months into his first head coaching gig doesn’t strike me as the right time.

Scott Robertson’s contract expires at end of 2021 super rugby season and no announcement of new deal yet, would top my short list if deal hasn’t been signed.

Cullen and Lancaster worthy candidates too.

Lost Ormond

Neil3030 wrote: »

I see around the Internet that the prize money for winning the RWC is 325k, while the prize money for winning the 6N is 5m, increasing to 6m if you win the grand slam. Are these figures (in Sterling) accurate?

How does the TV money work, RWC v 6N does anyone know?

Both those are accurate i think but world cup wins get so much beyond prize money alone that the prize money doesnt need to be that big.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand why the six nations has price money at all

why should it not?

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

First call out has to go to ROG. I suspect he wont want it yet. Second call goes to Lancaster and Leo. If they dont want it as a double act i suspect we start looking to the Southern Hemisphere. McCall should get a call but i dont think he will.

It shouldnt yet. ROG doesnt want it yet and i think we need someone with far more head coaching experience.

I wouldnt pick Leo unless you get Lancaster as well and does Lancaster even want to go back to international coaching? Seems very happy where he is right now and would be surprised he would want to change whats working well for him